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Anti-doping agencies killed cycling

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  • TheBigBeanTheBigBean Posts: 17,690
    I haven't read the OP, but is it in favour of athletes dying in their sleep, because it's more entertaining to watch? Even if you ignore the deaths, it wasn't more entertaining watching Mr 60%.
  • No_Ta_DoctorNo_Ta_Doctor Posts: 11,936

    I haven't read the OP, but is it in favour of athletes dying in their sleep, because it's more entertaining to watch? Even if you ignore the deaths, it wasn't more entertaining watching Mr 60%.

    That's a touch unfair on Riis. The attack on Hautacam had more than a touch of Fignon (an earlier teammate) about it. Glides back through the leaders to about 7th position to check them out, then launches a test attack, lets them regroup, sees they aren't good and launches for real.

    Obviously I agree entirely with your first point, and also with the point that cycling now isn't any less exciting than it was back then.



    “Road racing was over and the UCI had banned my riding positions on the track, so it was like ‘Jings, crivvens, help ma Boab, what do I do now? I know, I’ll go away and be depressed for 10 years’.”

    @DrHeadgear

    The Vikings are coming!
  • The Riis attack on Hautacam was well dodgy at the time. He had a good look at everyone else and then just went. Questions were asked immediately...."What was he on" being the favourite.
  • No_Ta_DoctorNo_Ta_Doctor Posts: 11,936

    The Riis attack on Hautacam was well dodgy at the time. He had a good look at everyone else and then just went. Questions were asked immediately...."What was he on" being the favourite.

    Oh definitely, though I was young and naive and relying on Phil and Paul for cycling coverage probably hadn't even heard of EPO.
    “Road racing was over and the UCI had banned my riding positions on the track, so it was like ‘Jings, crivvens, help ma Boab, what do I do now? I know, I’ll go away and be depressed for 10 years’.”

    @DrHeadgear

    The Vikings are coming!
  • Ben6899Ben6899 Posts: 9,674

    I haven't read the OP, but is it in favour of athletes dying in their sleep, because it's more entertaining to watch? Even if you ignore the deaths, it wasn't more entertaining watching Mr 60%.

    That's a touch unfair on Riis. The attack on Hautacam had more than a touch of Fignon (an earlier teammate) about it. Glides back through the leaders to about 7th position to check them out, then launches a test attack, lets them regroup, sees they aren't good and launches for real.

    Obviously I agree entirely with your first point, and also with the point that cycling now isn't any less exciting than it was back then.



    He was/is such a fuck1ng narcissist.
    Ben

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  • The Riis attack on Hautacam was well dodgy at the time. He had a good look at everyone else and then just went. Questions were asked immediately...."What was he on" being the favourite.

    Oh definitely, though I was young and naive and relying on Phil and Paul for cycling coverage probably hadn't even heard of EPO.
    Phil and Paul would never, ever mention drugs or drug taking. If you listened to their commentary in isolation you would be none the wiser about Riis, Virenque, Pantani, Landis etc.
  • pblakeneypblakeney Posts: 21,855

    The Riis attack on Hautacam was well dodgy at the time. He had a good look at everyone else and then just went. Questions were asked immediately...."What was he on" being the favourite.

    Oh definitely, though I was young and naive and relying on Phil and Paul for cycling coverage probably hadn't even heard of EPO.
    Phil and Paul would never, ever mention drugs or drug taking. If you listened to their commentary in isolation you would be none the wiser about Riis, Virenque, Pantani, Landis etc.
    If you were British, didn't read magazines and not involved in racing then they were all you had for info up until the Festina affair.
    My experience anyway. Ignorance was bliss.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • Even when the Festina affair was at its height, and there was the sit down strike they refused to mention the drug related aspect. They claimed not to know what the complaints were about.

    Nothing against them, they were super commentators, but I assume they took a decision not to mention drugs so as not to harm the sport.
  • kingstongrahamkingstongraham Posts: 22,675


    52 minutes onwards - "I'm just hoping we can get rid of this cancer in the sport of cycling... The Tour de France goes on, and the best time at the moment in the finish house is set by Tyler Hamilton" :D

    and

    17 minutes onwards and 1h22 "medical checks" lol
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 65,273 Lives Here
    edited June 2020



    52 minutes onwards - "I'm just hoping we can get rid of this cancer in the sport of cycling... The Tour de France goes on, and the best time at the moment in the finish house is set by Tyler Hamilton" :D

    and

    17 minutes onwards and 1h22 "medical checks" lol

    On that first clip: After stage 7 of the Tour, the highlights don't even mention Pantani he's that far back.

    You had testers winning the Tour since 1991 and Ulrich was so dominant the year before, why would you look at him?
  • No_Ta_DoctorNo_Ta_Doctor Posts: 11,936
    pblakeney said:

    The Riis attack on Hautacam was well dodgy at the time. He had a good look at everyone else and then just went. Questions were asked immediately...."What was he on" being the favourite.

    Oh definitely, though I was young and naive and relying on Phil and Paul for cycling coverage probably hadn't even heard of EPO.
    Phil and Paul would never, ever mention drugs or drug taking. If you listened to their commentary in isolation you would be none the wiser about Riis, Virenque, Pantani, Landis etc.
    If you were British, didn't read magazines and not involved in racing then they were all you had for info up until the Festina affair.
    My experience anyway. Ignorance was bliss.
    Yep, that exactly. I remember Gert-Jan Theunisse getting popped for testosterone in '88 (10 minute time penalty!) and they couldn't avoid talking about that a bit, also in '89 when he took the polkadots and the Alpe d'Huez stage. That should probably be seen in the context of Robert Millar being a KoM contender at the time though, so Theunisse got a bit of a pantomime villain role.

    “Road racing was over and the UCI had banned my riding positions on the track, so it was like ‘Jings, crivvens, help ma Boab, what do I do now? I know, I’ll go away and be depressed for 10 years’.”

    @DrHeadgear

    The Vikings are coming!
  • floreriderflorerider Posts: 1,112
    zest28 said:

    pblakeney said:

    Given up on the triathlete hero debate then?

    Nope, I am still disappointed how weak some pro riders are. Tom DuMoulin was complaining the other day that everybody was cheating with their power meters as 250W on average is only what the best can do according to him?

    Yet, 250W is nothing. Even juniors can do this type of power.

    No wonder cyclocross riders like Mathieu van der Poel can beat grand Tour winners like Tom DuMoulin as he is able to deliver 400W on average instead of 250W.





    Depends what you think is an average, 250 for the stage probably not that out of line. The time for the output matters.

    https://www.trainingpeaks.com/blog/2018-tour-de-france-stage-6-power-file-analysis/
  • If you just eat food and dont take supplements you wont get banned.
    www.thecycleclinic.co.uk
  • fenixfenix Posts: 5,437
    Well you could if you miss your appointments with the drugs testers ,?
  • CargobikeCargobike Posts: 748
    What a load of cobblers!

    Cycling wasn't killed by the Anti Doping Agency, in fact it's never been stronger.

    However, the huge influx of money into the sport has been a doubled edged sword. While it has increased the professionalism within the pro ranks there has also been a propensity to bend the rules to chase the riches at the higher end of the peleton.

    Money and the greed it engenders isn't always a positive solution.
  • m.r.m.m.r.m. Posts: 2,839
    edited June 2020

    If you just eat food and dont take supplements you wont get banned.

    What if it's steak?
    PTP Champion 2019 & 2022
  • orraloonorraloon Posts: 11,183
    edited June 2020
    m.r.m. said:

    If you just eat food and dont take supplements you wont get banned.

    What if it's steak?
    😊 Needs to be the right sort of steak, from the right sort of market producers.
  • andyracandyrac Posts: 935
    A lot of cycling's problems are self inflicted; still living in another era regards to promotion, TV, financial issues, etc

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  • bobmcstuffbobmcstuff Posts: 10,554

    zest28 said:

    pblakeney said:

    Given up on the triathlete hero debate then?

    Nope, I am still disappointed how weak some pro riders are. Tom DuMoulin was complaining the other day that everybody was cheating with their power meters as 250W on average is only what the best can do according to him?

    Yet, 250W is nothing. Even juniors can do this type of power.

    No wonder cyclocross riders like Mathieu van der Poel can beat grand Tour winners like Tom DuMoulin as he is able to deliver 400W on average instead of 250W.





    Depends what you think is an average, 250 for the stage probably not that out of line. The time for the output matters.

    https://www.trainingpeaks.com/blog/2018-tour-de-france-stage-6-power-file-analysis/
    This ride was 26km on the Bkool platform, so it would have been comfortably less than an hour long. A large number of pretty average riders can do 250 watts for that duration.

    That's the CN article:
    https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/tom-dumoulin-virtual-race-results-say-nothing/

    "I rode the virtual Gold Race with an average power of 250 watts. Most riders can't keep up with that but I never overtook anyone. I'm afraid that the problem with the wattages will last forever." - is just nonsense. I could do that on that course, and I am a completely unremarkable rider.

    But it's also missing the point, just like real life holding a steady wattage for the whole ride is not usually the fastest strategy, there is typically more benefit to push on a bit on the climbs and back off a bit on the flats. There's also drafting on Bkool so a group of riders working together will go a lot faster than one rider doing the same watts. So he could easily have been beaten by a group of riders averaging say, 50 or more watts less if they were working together properly. Typically on these short e-races they are more like crits than road races, power will be really high from the line and then it will settle down. If you get dropped from the group at that stage, you aren't coming back because of the drafting (well, Dumoulin could probably because I'm sure he is capably of 400-odd watts for that duration, but obviously not if he didn't want to - which is fair enough but then why the sour grapes. But for most riders, that's it).

    His other comment: "Wout van Aert is really the king of pedaling power and he finished 10th in the virtual Tour of Flanders." basically implies that because WvA didn't win it must be wrong, which should be obvious nonsense. WvA could have been soft pedalling for all we know (like Dumoulin apparently was). There's plenty of instances of real pros getting beaten by e-racing specialists in fairly well controlled environments: there's a knack to e-racing which is different to racing in real life. A lot of pros seem to make the same mistake as other people new to it and assume it is just about average watts.

    Interview with the US champion dude which shows how seriously some people take it: https://www.velonews.com/culture/qa-with-zwifts-1-ranked-rider-holden-comeau/
  • bobmcstuffbobmcstuff Posts: 10,554
    Obviously a lot of people do cheat to greater or lesser extents (like in real life I guess). But to listen to Dumoulin you'd think everyone else was cheating but him.

    Which would suit me fine as it would explain why I always lose :wink:
  • RichN95.RichN95. Posts: 26,451



    This ride was 26km on the Bkool platform, so it would have been comfortably less than an hour long. A large number of pretty average riders can do 250 watts for that duration.

    There were some ex-cricketers in their 40s doing that in a race yesterday
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • kingstongrahamkingstongraham Posts: 22,675
    I think some people are struggling with what "most" means.
  • bobmcstuffbobmcstuff Posts: 10,554

    I think some people are struggling with what "most" means.

    I don't think I am, if that's what you meant. Dumoulin might be though.
  • kingstongrahamkingstongraham Posts: 22,675
    edited June 2020
    I'd say it's true that most riders can't average 250W for an hour.

    Bear in mind this was an open event with thousands of amateurs involved. Not just professionals.
  • jimmythecuckoojimmythecuckoo Posts: 4,674
    RichN95. said:

    zest28 said:

    When I was a kid, cycling was huge. Everybody knew Lance Armstrong.

    When I was a kid cycling was a minority sport and no-one really knew Brian Robinson or Shay Elliott. Lance Armstrong wasn't even born.
    Just saying

    When I was a kid the Tour de France was one of Channel 4’s novelty foreign sports alongside NFL, Sumo and Kabbadi
    A lovely 2 minute segment on Transworld sport if we were lucky !!
  • bobmcstuffbobmcstuff Posts: 10,554

    I'd say it's true that most riders can't average 250W for an hour.

    Bear in mind this was an open event with thousands of amateurs involved. Not just professionals.

    Presumably he didn't come dead last (there don't seem to be any results online) or we would have heard about it, so there must have been quite a lot of riders doing less (especially if there were thousands of amateurs on it).

    He just didn't catch "anyone", which is hardly surprising if he was disinterestedly pedaling round and however many amateurs who got ahead of him at the start took it quite seriously.

    In a group you wouldn't need to average anything like 250 watts to beat a lone rider doing 250 watts. 200 or possibly even less depending on how BKool implements drafting (it's up to a 1/3 saving in real life).

    In any case, that's not really important - his two main points were that because he didn't catch anyone during the ride he did, therefore everyone else is either cheating or on miscalibrated equipment. Then his second point is that because WvA didn't win another race it must all be wrong. That's what I wanted to disagree with, really.
  • bobmcstuffbobmcstuff Posts: 10,554
    RichN95. said:



    This ride was 26km on the Bkool platform, so it would have been comfortably less than an hour long. A large number of pretty average riders can do 250 watts for that duration.

    There were some ex-cricketers in their 40s doing that in a race yesterday
    I just watched that on youtube, moderately diverting WFH background viewing.
  • RichN95.RichN95. Posts: 26,451

    RichN95. said:



    This ride was 26km on the Bkool platform, so it would have been comfortably less than an hour long. A large number of pretty average riders can do 250 watts for that duration.

    There were some ex-cricketers in their 40s doing that in a race yesterday
    I just watched that on youtube, moderately diverting WFH background viewing.

    Froome brought some well honed criterium skills to the table - as in 'make it look like a good race' . Rohan Dennis could learn from him
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • bobmcstuffbobmcstuff Posts: 10,554
    RichN95. said:

    RichN95. said:



    This ride was 26km on the Bkool platform, so it would have been comfortably less than an hour long. A large number of pretty average riders can do 250 watts for that duration.

    There were some ex-cricketers in their 40s doing that in a race yesterday
    I just watched that on youtube, moderately diverting WFH background viewing.

    Froome brought some well honed criterium skills to the table - as in 'make it look like a good race' . Rohan Dennis could learn from him
    Yeah, I wondered if he might let them win for a second.

    But then I remembered it was Chris Froome.
  • RichN95.RichN95. Posts: 26,451



    Yeah, I wondered if he might let them win for a second.

    But then I remembered it was Chris Froome.


    He might have done if it had just been Sporty Spice, but you can't risk Pietersen winning.
    Twitter: @RichN95
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