Not enjoying Dura Ace brakes

tim_field

Hi all,

I'm really not liking Dura Ace 9100 brakes, I'm running black prince pads and ZIP NSW 303. I find the modulation irritating so I've got to squeeze the brakes a lot before they really bite. I prefer an on off feel, rather than a brake that builds. What's out there that'll improve on these? (preferably light!).

Cheers, Tim

shimanobottombracket

"black prince pads and ZIP NSW 303. ".

I found that like trying to read the inside of one of those Egyptian pyramids.

Anyway I got Shimano 105 rim brakes on my road bike. They feel similar to the hydro discs on my mountain bike. Altho in the wet the rim brakes are rubbish, not that I ride my road bike in the wet very often. As far as I know the modulation is just how the brakes operate, so your stuck with it. I do find that different pads can improve braking, but only to a moderate degree at most.

imposter2.0

It's never really occurred to me whether I 'enjoy' braking, or not. As long as I can slow down and/or stop, I'm generally happy...

mrdsgs

The platinum pro evo grey pads that come with your wheels are significantly softer than the black prince. They wear faster on the showstopper brake track (NSW) but do work well. Don't change your callipers. You need to get used to modulation and feathering brakes, plus toeing in. If you really do want on off you will either skid or go over the bars. The alternative.....disk brakes!

lesfirth

Your problem is with your pad and rim combination not with your calipers.

tim_field

I've just switched brake pads, the Zipp ones were awful and far below what the black prince are doing. I tried another type too. The problem I have is needing to pull the leaver so far inwards to really slow down, this makes the bike feel very unstable at high speeds. So it could be me sure, but I'm very used to very very powerful MTB discs that have little modulation and one finger braking. Now I'm not expecting that, but the closer I can get to that type of feeling the better. My other road bike has metal rims and some cheaper lightweight brakes and it's far better than this too. I don't need to pull the brakes so far in before I get proper bite.

DeVlaeminck

Are your pads set up properly, close enough to rims? You are already running very good brakes and imo very good pads - unless there is some incompatibility between the pads and rims (unlikely) either there is something wrong with the set up or else you just don't like the feel of braking with carbon rims.

mrb123

^This.

You should be able to set up the brakes with the pads set close enough to the rims that braking requires very little lever travel.

joe_totale-2

I use the £5 Wiggle blue carbon brake pads, have set them up nice and close and toe them in correctly.
The stopping on my Carbon rims is great and doesn't require much lever travel. It's as good as alloy rims aside from when it's pouring down. This is with Ultegra R8000 brake calipers and from what I understand the Dura Ace ones are basically the same but lighter.

danx

tim_field said:

I'm very used to very very powerful MTB discs that have little modulation and one finger braking.

Road bikes do not have the traction of MTB's with the much smaller tyre surface and less grabby tread patterns. It's simply not possible to replicate the stopping power as the wheels will lock up far easier.

I was the same when i got my first road bike - coming from mtb the brakes scared me. I upgraded my pads to coolstop salmon which improved things marginally but nothing close to mtb braking.

Now I've got hydro discs on my road bike and still does not give the stopping power you are talking about. They work much better in the wet, and bite a bit better than my old rim brakes in the dry too but are still not particularly powerful in feel and yet I can easily lock the wheels.

You could try shortening the cables or putting the pads closer to the rim. Although I find with road levers the power is especially weak in the first 1/3rd of movement anyway due to the leverage profile.

The truth is you need the brake modulation and to refine your feel for the levers to get the best out of road bike tyres otherwise they just lock up under any real power.

thegreatdivide

If you're using the 303s with the NSW brake track, the supplied Tangente Platinum Pro Evo pads on Dura Ace brakes and you can't stop properly, then as above, your calliper set up is woefully wrong or you're just here for a troll. I'm swaying to the latter.

mrdsgs

thegreatdivide said:

or you're just here for a troll. I'm swaying to the latter.

my thoughts exactly but I thought I would feed the troll!

Darius_Jedburgh

Very few on here need Dura Ace. The few that do need it will have a mechanic to set everything up for them.

Of course, many want Dura Ace because of bragging rights, but they seldom have the skills to set them up correctly, and feel that as they have paid lots of dosh for the stuff it should set itself up.

My vote is for a troll.

teisetrotter

There is zero difference in setting up DA to anything else. It's just made of lighter materials i.e titanium ceramic bearings etc. It's the same with Chorus, Record and Super Record same system different materials.

However, for years the DA brakes have been rated the best in rim brakes. Personally I can't see what can be 'better' they are a clamp braced by a spring which a cable tensions via a lever i.e. from your hoods.

If you want light and bling go for TRP, very few left now. I have some super light anodised red ones for that 90's look. Look brilliant, pretty spongy though.

imposter2.0

FrankYates said:

Very few on here need Dura Ace. The few that do need it will have a mechanic to set everything up for them.

Of course, many want Dura Ace because of bragging rights, but they seldom have the skills to set them up correctly, and feel that as they have paid lots of dosh for the stuff it should set itself up.

My vote is for a troll.

That's just ignorant nonsense, sorry. DA is no more difficult to set up than any other shimano product.

Darius_Jedburgh

I never said it was. Some people buy stuff with no idea how to set it up. Top of the range or bottom it matters not.
They just buy it for the label.

They are the ignorant ones...and yourself. Next time read the post, and leave your prejudices behind. Idiot.

photonic69

Take extra care setting up the toe-in. I use a business card at the trailing end as a gauge. I used to use the card doubled up but found that less than half the pad making contact with the rim during braking. This really compromised the performance. Bring the pads in close and also make sure each pad touches the rim simultaneously using the adjustment. You should have great performance from a well setup rig.

imposter2.0

FrankYates said:

I never said it was. Some people buy stuff with no idea how to set it up. Top of the range or bottom it matters not.
They just buy it for the label.

They are the ignorant ones...and yourself. Next time read the post, and leave your prejudices behind. Idiot.

Lol - I was right. Ignorance. The only one with any prejudice here is you, as your posts make abundantly clear. We can let others to decide who the idiot is..

964cup

Wow. This place has really gone downhill. Let's try to look at the OP's actual problem.

From what you describe, you have a problem somewhere in your setup with excessive compression. DA9100 are a stiff dual-pivot caliper, so they make a good basis for a rim brake. Swissstop BP carbon are a good pad, although personally I prefer the Zipp Tangente. I would look at:

• How your outers are seated at every interface point - in the lever, [for rears - at their entry into the frame and at the exit from the frame] and into the caliper. Make sure you have a clean, flat end surface to the outer (use a file to clean it up if not), and that you're using ferrules where they're needed and not using them where they aren't. Make sure also that if you do have internal cabling for the rear brake you've got the right adaptors in the frame so that the outer seats properly.
  
• Which outer and inner combination you're using. I don't rate the Shimano PTFE coated brake cable, but if you are using it, you must use Shimano outers. If you really struggle to get good brake feel, try using a zero-compression outer like Nokon.
  
• That your brakes are adjusted properly. For the brake feel you want, you need to run the pad close to the rim, somewhere around 1-2mm clearance; the pads need to be lined up properly with the brake surface - do this by loosening the pad bolt, clamping the brake with one hand and adjusting the pad with the other until it sits nicely just below the top of the brake surface. This will also get the pad parallel with the rim in both axes; in general I wouldn't look for toe-in on a carbon rim - it's a must have on e.g. Exalith, but for what you want you need maximum pad contact as soon as possible.
  
• Finally, that your calipers are properly centred, using the spring adjuster grub screws. This is especially important if you want to run close pad clearance, as is having a properly trued rim.

i.bhamra

Surely the main issue here is OP expecting MTB hydraulic disc stopping power from a road bike with rim brakes and a carbon braking track. It's never going to be achievable.

Sure, you may be able to tweek your set up a little (you can certainly do better the SS BP pads!) but the differences are unlikely to give you the same braking performance as you are hoping to achieve.

If you want to run carbon with rim brakes you need to adapt to your set-up of choice (which is about as good as it gets by the way). Also carbon rim brake tracks do feel very different to alu ones. Some people would say alu performs better.

964cup

Dry weather, correct pads, correct outers, well setup, you should have very effective braking from a carbon rim. Certainly I'd only expect anything like the symptoms the OP describes in wet weather.