Disc Brake Rub When Out Of The Saddle

ibr17xviiibr17xvii Posts: 86
edited 8 October in Workshop
On a lower end road bike is that just the way it is?

I've got a Canyon AL Disc which I use as my winter bike & whenever I'm giving it some beans out of the saddle the front disc rubs quite badly & the rear sometimes does as well although not quite as much. Had the bike serviced before I put it away for winter so (presumably) the pistons, pads etc were cleaned etc although from what I remember it's rubbed when out of the saddle pretty much from day 1.

As I say the bike is at the lower end of the spectrum (2018 AL Disc frame, 105 hydrallic groupset, DT Swiss 1800 wheels & thru axles) so I'm not expecting no frame / fork flex at all but never having ridden anything better on discs I've nothing to compare it to.

Other than that I really like the bike so it's not a dealbreaker, just more annoying rather than anything else.

When I come to change my best bike I'll be considering getting another one with discs so is it a case of higher up the range, better frame / wheels, less flex so less rub or is there something else I should be looking at on the Canyon?

Do better or smaller rotors make a difference? It has 160mm front & back which seems like overkill as I don't live in the Alps so was considering maybe changing them for 140mm Ultegra rotors & seeing if that did anything. They look better than the 105 rotors if nothing else!
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Posts

  • either you have too much POWA or have eaten too many pies.

    Are you a Paris Roubaix favourite or likely to win on the champs eleysee?
  • kingstoniankingstonian Posts: 1,751
    I get the same on my CX bike (Cannondale CAADX) but it is relatively minor rubbing and I have to be giving it a fair amount of welly for it to happen.
  • ibr17xviiibr17xvii Posts: 86
    either you have too much POWA or have eaten too many pies.

    Are you a Paris Roubaix favourite or likely to win on the champs eleysee?

    Being closer to 50 than 40 & 67kg none of those really apply.
  • ibr17xviiibr17xvii Posts: 86
    I get the same on my CX bike (Cannondale CAADX) but it is relatively minor rubbing and I have to be giving it a fair amount of welly for it to happen.

    I can get rub if I get out of the saddle moving away from traffic lights although to be fair I do think I have a tendency to throw the bike from side to side more than normal.

    Maybe I'll try to be a little less "aggressive" if that's just the way it is.
  • AlejandrosdogAlejandrosdog Posts: 2,007
    ibr17xvii wrote:
    either you have too much POWA or have eaten too many pies.

    Are you a Paris Roubaix favourite or likely to win on the champs eleysee?

    Being closer to 50 than 40 & 67kg none of those really apply.


    Ha! Excellent.

    Are you sure the movement isnt coming from the hub?
  • pilot_petepilot_pete Posts: 1,759
    So, things to check.

    1. Skewers/ through bolt axles tight.
    2. Play in wheel bearings. Hold the bike steady with one hand and try rocking the wheel side to side. Is there any play?
    3. Are the disc pads centred with an even gap either side of the rotor? Easiest way to see this is to turn the bike upside down and look from the bottom with a good light and a plain background, such as a sheet of paper held behind the caliper.
    4. If they are not, adjust the caliper to centralise the rotor between the pads with an even gap each side.
    5. The last thing I would try is taking the pads out with the bike in your workstand, removing the bleed port screw in the lever and then force the pistons apart with a blunt tool - NOT a sharp ended flat screwdriver unless you pad the end as you can crack a piston doing that. You may get a bit of fluid welling out of the port - mop this up with a clean rag and then replace the bleed port screw. Replace the pads and wheel and try the brakes a few times. Now adjust the caliper as in 4 above.

    If that doesn’t sort it I think you will probably just have to live with it.

    PP
  • ibr17xviiibr17xvii Posts: 86
    ibr17xvii wrote:
    either you have too much POWA or have eaten too many pies.

    Are you a Paris Roubaix favourite or likely to win on the champs eleysee?

    Being closer to 50 than 40 & 67kg none of those really apply.


    Ha! Excellent.

    Are you sure the movement isnt coming from the hub?

    I'll certainly be checking that but I can get rub both front & back & with the bike being just over a year old I'd be amazed if the hubs have gone already especially as they at DT Swiss.
  • ibr17xviiibr17xvii Posts: 86
    Pilot Pete wrote:
    So, things to check.

    1. Skewers/ through bolt axles tight.
    2. Play in wheel bearings. Hold the bike steady with one hand and try rocking the wheel side to side. Is there any play?
    3. Are the disc pads centred with an even gap either side of the rotor? Easiest way to see this is to turn the bike upside down and look from the bottom with a good light and a plain background, such as a sheet of paper held behind the caliper.
    4. If they are not, adjust the caliper to centralise the rotor between the pads with an even gap each side.
    5. The last thing I would try is taking the pads out with the bike in your workstand, removing the bleed port screw in the lever and then force the pistons apart with a blunt tool - NOT a sharp ended flat screwdriver unless you pad the end as you can crack a piston doing that. You may get a bit of fluid welling out of the port - mop this up with a clean rag and then replace the bleed port screw. Replace the pads and wheel and try the brakes a few times. Now adjust the caliper as in 4 above.

    If that doesn’t sort it I think you will probably just have to live with it.

    PP

    Some good things to check there Pete, I'll certainly be giving those a go cheers mate.

    With me being able to get rub front & back if I really give it some beans I fear that it's just normal flex though & I will just have to live with it.
  • AlejandrosdogAlejandrosdog Posts: 2,007
    ibr17xvii wrote:
    ibr17xvii wrote:
    either you have too much POWA or have eaten too many pies.

    Are you a Paris Roubaix favourite or likely to win on the champs eleysee?

    Being closer to 50 than 40 & 67kg none of those really apply.


    Ha! Excellent.

    Are you sure the movement isnt coming from the hub?

    I'll certainly be checking that but I can get rub both front & back & with the bike being just over a year old I'd be amazed if the hubs have gone already especially as they at DT Swiss.

    I have some dtswiss wheels with the 240 hubs, less than a year old not used much and ice replaced the bearings already. Sometimes they just dont last. Its annoying
  • ibr17xviiibr17xvii Posts: 86
    ibr17xvii wrote:
    ibr17xvii wrote:
    either you have too much POWA or have eaten too many pies.

    Are you a Paris Roubaix favourite or likely to win on the champs eleysee?

    Being closer to 50 than 40 & 67kg none of those really apply.


    Ha! Excellent.

    Are you sure the movement isnt coming from the hub?

    I'll certainly be checking that but I can get rub both front & back & with the bike being just over a year old I'd be amazed if the hubs have gone already especially as they at DT Swiss.

    I have some dtswiss wheels with the 240 hubs, less than a year old not used much and ice replaced the bearings already. Sometimes they just dont last. Its annoying

    Blimey that's not great. These have done about 4000k in the 13 months I've had them so I don't think the bearings should be shot at but I'll certainly be checking.
  • KajjalKajjal Posts: 3,404
    My guess would be 5. from the list above. When you do it slowly and carefully prise the pads apart, and while holding pads apart screw top bleed port screw back in. My last bike had this with the rear brake from new and it means too little clearance between pads and rotor.
  • AlejandrosdogAlejandrosdog Posts: 2,007
    ibr17xvii wrote:
    ibr17xvii wrote:
    ibr17xvii wrote:
    either you have too much POWA or have eaten too many pies.

    Are you a Paris Roubaix favourite or likely to win on the champs eleysee?

    Being closer to 50 than 40 & 67kg none of those really apply.


    Ha! Excellent.

    Are you sure the movement isnt coming from the hub?

    I'll certainly be checking that but I can get rub both front & back & with the bike being just over a year old I'd be amazed if the hubs have gone already especially as they at DT Swiss.

    I have some dtswiss wheels with the 240 hubs, less than a year old not used much and ice replaced the bearings already. Sometimes they just dont last. Its annoying

    Blimey that's not great. These have done about 4000k in the 13 months I've had them so I don't think the bearings should be shot at but I'll certainly be checking.

    Not good at all
  • ibr17xviiibr17xvii Posts: 86
    Ruled out 1 & 2 from Petes list so I think next port of call might be to clean the pistons, not done it before though. Looks reasonably simple on YT videos.

    I have some Shimano mineral grease, should I be using a light coat of that to regrease or just give them a thorough clean with Isopropyl alcohol?
  • daniel_bdaniel_b Posts: 8,284
    I have the same issue on my SRAM Rival Synapse.

    My experience of Shimano has always been that the gap has been pretty generous, so your issue does sound unusual.

    I have given up in the end, and as I want to use it this winter in earnest, and will need it as a commuter next year, have asked my local bike mechanic to have a look and see if he can resolve it for me.

    The Rival setup has a lot less leeway than Shimano equivalents (IMHO) anyway, but most noticable of all, is that I could get the calliper lined up pretty much perfectly, with an even gap either side, but when it came to the final part of tightening it up to a sufficient amount, it's position would alter to that of one partially diagonal across the rotor - not sure if people understand what I mean by that.

    My personal theory is that the mounting points are compromised and not as flush as they should be, and the chap who collected it last night agrees, so I will be interested to see if he can remedy it OR find a way around it - I was thinking those dished washers (I don't know the technical name) that allows a modicum of movement / positioning.

    He's also going to bleed the system, and push the pistons fully back in for a period of time, so hopefully it will be a like new bike when he returns it, in theory tomorrow, but I said if he needs it for longer no problems at all, I'd rather it was spot on amd a joy to ride.

    I'll update with how he got on.

    I did manage to get it not to rub when spinning the wheels, but that was with judicous use of this:
    Park-Tools-Rotor-Truing-Fork-Workshop-Tools-AW14-QKDT2C.jpg?w=430&h=430&a=7

    I've also supplied him with replacement pads (Superstar) and rotors (SRAM) should they be required.
    Felt F70 05 (Turbo)
    Marin Palisades Trail 91 and 06
    Scott CR1 SL 12
    Cannondale Synapse Adventure 15 & 16 Di2
    Scott Foil 18
  • ibr17xviiibr17xvii Posts: 86
    Kajjal wrote:
    My guess would be 5. from the list above. When you do it slowly and carefully prise the pads apart, and while holding pads apart screw top bleed port screw back in. My last bike had this with the rear brake from new and it means too little clearance between pads and rotor.

    Don't know anything about bleeding brakes as never done it so will deffo be investigating this.
  • ibr17xviiibr17xvii Posts: 86
    Daniel B wrote:
    I have the same issue on my SRAM Rival Synapse.

    My experience of Shimano has always been that the gap has been pretty generous, so your issue does sound unusual.

    I have given up in the end, and as I want to use it this winter in earnest, and will need it as a commuter next year, have asked my local bike mechanic to have a look and see if he can resolve it for me.

    The Rival setup has a lot less leeway than Shimano equivalents (IMHO) anyway, but most noticable of all, is that I could get the calliper lined up pretty much perfectly, with an even gap either side, but when it came to the final part of tightening it up to a sufficient amount, it's position would alter to that of one partially diagonal across the rotor - not sure if people understand what I mean by that.

    My personal theory is that the mounting points are compromised and not as flush as they should be, and the chap who collected it last night agrees, so I will be interested to see if he can remedy it OR find a way around it - I was thinking those dished washers (I don't know the technical name) that allows a modicum of movement / positioning.

    He's also going to bleed the system, and push the pistons fully back in for a period of time, so hopefully it will be a like new bike when he returns it, in theory tomorrow, but I said if he needs it for longer no problems at all, I'd rather it was spot on amd a joy to ride.

    I'll update with how he got on.

    I did manage to get it not to rub when spinning the wheels, but that was with judicous use of this:
    Park-Tools-Rotor-Truing-Fork-Workshop-Tools-AW14-QKDT2C.jpg?w=430&h=430&a=7

    I've also supplied him with replacement pads (Superstar) and rotors (SRAM) should they be required.

    Interesting.

    Spinning the wheels just normally it's absolutely perfect it's just when giving it some beans.

    Like I said I do tend to throw it about a bit & with the tolerances on discs being so small maybe it's not necessarily the bike that's at fault maybe I need to adjust my riding style! :lol:
  • photonic69photonic69 Posts: 887
    ibr17xvii wrote:
    Interesting.

    Spinning the wheels just normally it's absolutely perfect it's just when giving it some beans.

    Like I said I do tend to throw it about a bit & with the tolerances on discs being so small maybe it's not necessarily the bike that's at fault maybe I need to adjust my riding style! :lol:

    If they spin without rubbing then the only thing that can be causing it would be movement of the hub.

    One thing to add is how old are your brake pads? I too have 105 RS505 hydraulic brakes and when the pads were worn I was getting quite a bit of rub/drag especially after long periods of braking on downhills. I fitted new pads after pushing the pistons right in and this minimised it considerably. Seems counter-intuitive as there is more meat on them but it worked for me. Still happens a bit but I can live with it.

    As you say your rub happens when pulling away from traffic lights etc then I would assume you have braked to a halt just before. It's possible you are experiencing the same fault I had/have? Just a thought.
  • ibr17xviiibr17xvii Posts: 86
    photonic69 wrote:
    ibr17xvii wrote:
    Interesting.

    Spinning the wheels just normally it's absolutely perfect it's just when giving it some beans.

    Like I said I do tend to throw it about a bit & with the tolerances on discs being so small maybe it's not necessarily the bike that's at fault maybe I need to adjust my riding style! :lol:

    If they spin without rubbing then the only thing that can be causing it would be movement of the hub.

    One thing to add is how old are your brake pads? I too have 105 RS505 hydraulic brakes and when the pads were worn I was getting quite a bit of rub/drag especially after long periods of braking on downhills. I fitted new pads after pushing the pistons right in and this minimised it considerably. Seems counter-intuitive as there is more meat on them but it worked for me. Still happens a bit but I can live with it.

    As you say your rub happens when pulling away from traffic lights etc then I would assume you have braked to a halt just before. It's possible you are experiencing the same fault I had/have? Just a thought.

    Brake pads are what came with the bike, probably done about 3000 miles. Checked them when I put the bike away for the summer & they had probably 2mm left front & back. It's something else I need to have a look at though.

    Problem is getting the time to do it - cos the weather is so naff at the minute when it's dry I just want to get out whilst the going is good so it will just have to wait :lol:

    Thanks for all the contributions though, I will deffo update the thread when I finally get round to it.
  • pilot_petepilot_pete Posts: 1,759
    Daniel B wrote:
    My personal theory is that the mounting points are compromised and not as flush as they should be, and the chap who collected it last night agrees, so I will be interested to see if he can remedy it OR find a way around it - I was thinking those dished washers (I don't know the technical name) that allows a modicum of movement / positioning.

    One possible solution not already covered is to get the caliper mounts faced to ensure the pads sit perfectly parallel with the rotor surface. Here’s a demo from Park Tools,

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zBsqYnYj_sE

    PP
  • KajjalKajjal Posts: 3,404
    ibr17xvii wrote:
    Kajjal wrote:
    My guess would be 5. from the list above. When you do it slowly and carefully prise the pads apart, and while holding pads apart screw top bleed port screw back in. My last bike had this with the rear brake from new and it means too little clearance between pads and rotor.

    Don't know anything about bleeding brakes as never done it so will deffo be investigating this.

    It is not uncommon , it just means there is too much fluid in the system which reduces the pad to rotor clearance enough to make adjustment very difficult.
  • ibr17xviiibr17xvii Posts: 86
    Kajjal wrote:
    ibr17xvii wrote:
    Kajjal wrote:
    My guess would be 5. from the list above. When you do it slowly and carefully prise the pads apart, and while holding pads apart screw top bleed port screw back in. My last bike had this with the rear brake from new and it means too little clearance between pads and rotor.

    Don't know anything about bleeding brakes as never done it so will deffo be investigating this.

    It is not uncommon , it just means there is too much fluid in the system which reduces the pad to rotor clearance enough to make adjustment very difficult.

    More YouTube videos to watch! :lol:
  • ibr17xviiibr17xvii Posts: 86
    One more slightly OT question whilst I'm waiting for the weather to dry up so I can get it on the workstand outside - as per the OP I'm considering getting some 140mm Ultegra rotors as 160mm front & back is overkill for the riding I do. Plus the 105 rotors look horrible.

    I'm told I need to "flip the brake caliper mounting spacer" to accommodate the smaller rotor but I've no idea what that means / entails & can't seem to find a YouTube video that shows how to do it.

    Anyone able to explain it in lamens terms or even better link to a video?
  • lesfirthlesfirth Posts: 894
    Your caliper does not screw directly into your frame. There is a flat bit of metal in between . That is the spacer. Unscrew the caliper from the spacer and and the spacer from the frame. Turn the spacer thru 180 degrees and reassemble. Job done. This moves the caliper down to suit a 140 disc. The only unlikely complication may be if your hydraulic hose is not long enough.
  • ibr17xviiibr17xvii Posts: 86
    lesfirth wrote:
    Your caliper does not screw directly into your frame. There is a flat bit of metal in between . That is the spacer. Unscrew the caliper from the spacer and and the spacer from the frame. Turn the spacer thru 180 degrees and reassemble. Job done. This moves the caliper down to suit a 140 disc. The only unlikely complication may be if your hydraulic hose is not long enough.

    I thought it was something along those lines, cheers mate.

    I was hoping however that I wouldn't have to touch the calipers as being a total noob to discs it took me ages to get them set up right & I'm scared to fiddle with them now! :lol:

    Presumably they would just screw in to exactly the same position as they were before though so shouldn't need any fettling apart from maybe the position of the new rotor or it being slightly thicker?
  • pilot_petepilot_pete Posts: 1,759
    ibr17xvii wrote:
    lesfirth wrote:
    Your caliper does not screw directly into your frame. There is a flat bit of metal in between . That is the spacer. Unscrew the caliper from the spacer and and the spacer from the frame. Turn the spacer thru 180 degrees and reassemble. Job done. This moves the caliper down to suit a 140 disc. The only unlikely complication may be if your hydraulic hose is not long enough.

    I thought it was something along those lines, cheers mate.

    I was hoping however that I wouldn't have to touch the calipers as being a total noob to discs it took me ages to get them set up right & I'm scared to fiddle with them now! :lol:

    Presumably they would just screw in to exactly the same position as they were before though so shouldn't need any fettling apart from maybe the position of the new rotor or it being slightly thicker?

    The calipers and spacers will screw down in exactly the same position (relative to your new smaller disc rotor), but you have to position them to achieve this - there is a little bit of movement available on the bolt holes to adjust the caliper to centralise the disc rotor between the pads. You can’t adjust the rotor position; it simply screws onto the hub either with a centre lock ring or 6 (usually torx head) bolts. The only adjustment of the rotor is to ensure it is true, I.e. running in a perfect circle with no wobble (buckle, like a wheel). If it is not true you can use a specific tool or something like an adjustable spanner to bend it slightly back true.

    It can be fiddly to centre the pads and take a few attempts to ensure no brake rub and some people will prefer to use a little metal shim tool that is available to place over the rotor between the pads which can help achieve the correct position.

    PP
  • ibr17xviiibr17xvii Posts: 86
    Pilot Pete wrote:
    ibr17xvii wrote:
    lesfirth wrote:
    Your caliper does not screw directly into your frame. There is a flat bit of metal in between . That is the spacer. Unscrew the caliper from the spacer and and the spacer from the frame. Turn the spacer thru 180 degrees and reassemble. Job done. This moves the caliper down to suit a 140 disc. The only unlikely complication may be if your hydraulic hose is not long enough.

    I thought it was something along those lines, cheers mate.

    I was hoping however that I wouldn't have to touch the calipers as being a total noob to discs it took me ages to get them set up right & I'm scared to fiddle with them now! :lol:

    Presumably they would just screw in to exactly the same position as they were before though so shouldn't need any fettling apart from maybe the position of the new rotor or it being slightly thicker?

    The calipers and spacers will screw down in exactly the same position (relative to your new smaller disc rotor), but you have to position them to achieve this - there is a little bit of movement available on the bolt holes to adjust the caliper to centralise the disc rotor between the pads. You can’t adjust the rotor position; it simply screws onto the hub either with a centre lock ring or 6 (usually torx head) bolts. The only adjustment of the rotor is to ensure it is true, I.e. running in a perfect circle with no wobble (buckle, like a wheel). If it is not true you can use a specific tool or something like an adjustable spanner to bend it slightly back true.

    It can be fiddly to centre the pads and take a few attempts to ensure no brake rub and some people will prefer to use a little metal shim tool that is available to place over the rotor between the pads which can help achieve the correct position.

    PP

    Thanks Pete.

    That's just something to consider for the future as I really don't like the look of the 105 rotors.

    Like I say I'm pretty paranoid about messing about with the calipers so will have to pluck up the courage for that one.
  • ibr17xviiibr17xvii Posts: 86
    So as it finally stopped raining for a decent amount of time decided to get the bike on the workstand & have a look at the pistons & see if I could get the bike back together afterwards without breaking anything.

    Took the pads out, unscrewed the bleed screw, pushed the pads back in & little bit of fluid came out, not much but maybe still enough to make a difference. Cleaned the pistons up & gave them a little regrease & then put the pads & wheel back in. Of course then I had a bit of rub when it was still in the stand but managed to sort that. Moved onto the back & did the same there. Took my time as never done it before & my mechanical skills are questionable to say the least. Spent about 90 mins on it in total.

    Then took the bike out for a spin & success no rubbing! I can just about "force" a bit of rub on a full on sprint swinging the bike from side to side but as for rub when just moving off normally, nothing!

    Thanks to everyone who contributed with suggestions but particularly Pilot Pete as his checklist was spot on. I probably could've got by with videos on YT cleaning the pistons themselves but there's no way I would've thought about getting a bit of fluid out of the system like that.

    Thanks again Pete, top man.
  • pilot_petepilot_pete Posts: 1,759
    No problem, glad you got it sorted! :wink:

    Now, that final bit of rub when honking on the pedals - that’s undoubtedly a bit of flex between the frame, axle and rotor. You may be able to eliminate that with a bit of fine tuning of the caliper position assuming the rotor(s) are completely true. But I guess you’ll probably just be going out for a ride instead... :mrgreen:

    PP
  • ibr17xviiibr17xvii Posts: 86
    Pilot Pete wrote:
    No problem, glad you got it sorted! :wink:

    Now, that final bit of rub when honking on the pedals - that’s undoubtedly a bit of flex between the frame, axle and rotor. You may be able to eliminate that with a bit of fine tuning of the caliper position assuming the rotor(s) are completely true. But I guess you’ll probably just be going out for a ride instead... :mrgreen:

    PP

    Deffo mate :lol:

    I can live with that amount of rub, I don't sprint anyway & I'm not touching those calipers again unless I have to :lol:

    Don't know if it's just me but every time I have the back wheel off it goes back perfectly, no rub. Taking the front off always seems to involve some kind of faffing though.

    Guess the back wheel always goes back in exactly the same position with the cassette but the front can be millimeters different I suppose.

    Either way I'm happy now!
  • pilot_petepilot_pete Posts: 1,759
    ibr17xvii wrote:
    Pilot Pete wrote:
    No problem, glad you got it sorted! :wink:

    Now, that final bit of rub when honking on the pedals - that’s undoubtedly a bit of flex between the frame, axle and rotor. You may be able to eliminate that with a bit of fine tuning of the caliper position assuming the rotor(s) are completely true. But I guess you’ll probably just be going out for a ride instead... :mrgreen:

    PP

    Deffo mate :lol:

    I can live with that amount of rub, I don't sprint anyway & I'm not touching those calipers again unless I have to :lol:

    Don't know if it's just me but every time I have the back wheel off it goes back perfectly, no rub. Taking the front off always seems to involve some kind of faffing though.

    Guess the back wheel always goes back in exactly the same position with the cassette but the front can be millimeters different I suppose.

    Either way I'm happy now!

    Make sure when you put the front wheel in you put some weight on the front of the bike with the wheel on the ground, if it is normal quick release dropouts. This seats the wheel in the drop out fully before locking in position. If it’s through axle it shouldn’t really make any difference...

    PP
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