Upgrading smart trainer

graememacd
graememacd Posts: 386
edited September 2019 in Road buying advice
I've spent the last couple of years using a basic tacx flow smart trainer which has been good although it can only simulate a 6% gradient. Looking at upgrading to either an elite direto or tacx flux s. Has anyone else been through a similar thing and are the more expensive direct drive trainers worth the money or is it worth sticking with the flow?
Or are there any other trainers I should be considering?

Comments

  • wongataa
    wongataa Posts: 1,001
    Direct drive brings you greater accuracy. You get no wheel slip. You get no tyre wear issues. If you are serious about turbo training I would say it is worth the upgrade.
  • furrag
    furrag Posts: 481
    Went from my Bkool smart pro this week to a Wahoo Kickr. The Kickr is a bit slower in ERG mode I found in finding the resistance, but during a Zwift race it felt better.

    Not much difference other than noise and lack of wheel slip. Combining with a rocker plate, I'll be able to stand/or thrash the bike a little more due to the weight of the Kickr. It's definitely a lot quieter though.

    Value for money? No way. Spend elsewhere imo.
  • Value for money? In my opinion yes. But depends on how serious and often you will do indoor training.
    I use a watt bike, awesome bit of kit. Only use this as it’s nice and easy for the wife to also use, no swapping of bikes.
    My riding is on the fitness side, used to race and going to be racing in the vets series next spring. So it’s an ideal way for me to get my structured training in.
    If fitness and training wasn’t a requirement and it was to be used occasionally then I’d say stick to what you have.
    None of them are really like being on the road, but with the immersive software and erg modes, it’s so much better than the old dum trainers.
  • Thanks for the replies, some interesting but contradicting answers. I plan on training around 3 times a week over the autumn/winter probably on zwift. It's purely for fitness and an attempt to increase my ftp as I'm off to gran canaria in January for a few days cycling. I have found in the past its easier to do structured training indoors using trainerroad so will need to use the training programmes on zwift. The flow is a great trainer for the money but I think I'm going to look at getting the direto
  • super_davo
    super_davo Posts: 1,116
    I have the Direto which I bought pretty soon after launch (think I paid £650 for mine). That was a lot of money for something I wasn't sure would get that much use, but almost 2 years down the line I can definitely say its been a great buy.
    It will be much more accurate than your flow, and its also much easier to slip the wheel off and connect the bike than change the wheel, check the tyre pressure, spin down etc. on a wheel on trainer. On any turbo, the less obstacles there are to jumping on the more you'll feel like using it.

    With respect to the DIreto itself... I'm sure you'll get Philthy coming on saying that he had loads of drop outs but I have not with mine. What I will say is that it's not the fastest to react to changes in resistance. That's not a major issue with Zwift or Rouvy (which is what I use mostly) but it is if you are planning to use Trainer Road particular for intervals of 30 seconds or less. Though given the amount I have ended up using the Direto now I have it, I would almost certainly have stumped up the difference for a Neo for the full Rolls Royce smart trainer experience.
  • I have a similar dilemma. But I have decided to stay dumb and put a 4iiii PM on my summer/permanent winter turbo bike. I am just looking for more accurate power readings than the zwiftpower algorithm and the resistance is translated to my onscreen speed as oppose trainer.

    My winter bike is used for long rides for base fitness during the colder/wetter months.

    Also the added bonus of using power during the summer when the turbo is tucked away.
  • StillGoing
    StillGoing Posts: 5,211
    super_davo wrote:

    With respect to the DIreto itself... I'm sure you'll get Philthy coming on saying that he had loads of drop outs but I have not with mine. What I will say is that it's not the fastest to react to changes in resistance. That's not a major issue with Zwift or Rouvy (which is what I use mostly) but it is if you are planning to use Trainer Road particular for intervals of 30 seconds or less. Though given the amount I have ended up using the Direto now I have it, I would almost certainly have stumped up the difference for a Neo for the full Rolls Royce smart trainer experience.

    It's true I did, but I think a lot of the version 1 Direto's suffered with the problem, particularly if you used something other than Elite's trainng program such as Sufferfest, TrainerRoad etc.

    I started with a TACX Flow pretty basic. Moved to a Bushido which was terrible and jumped to direct drive with an Elite Kura fluid trainer. Supposed to be smart, but it isn't as it can't control resistance or ERG. Initially, I wasn't bothered about ERG mode, but the more I got into online workouts, the more it mattered. Moved to the Direto and its drop out problems and I have to say Elite are terrible with aftermarket assistance (probably the language barrier?). I found its response to resistance changes was nowhere near good enough for sprint intervals and would miss the target more times than not. Finally bit the bullet and bought a TACX Neo and its the best money I've spent on a smart trainer. Gradients to cater for most software programs and capable of watts I could only dream of. The resistance changes are almost instantaneous and with no calibration to do, its plug in and forget. The watts virtually match my P2M. Silent other than the bike.

    I never went for the Neo from the start, as like a lot of riders, I thought it was too much money for something that would hardly get used. I wish I'd just bought one from the start instead of wasting money on the other trainers. You get what you pay for.

    Fault wise, the only report is a fee owners got noise from the Neo hub after moving it around. This is a simple fix and just minute dust particles rattling about in the housing and being amplified. It sounds horrendous noise wise but is nothing to worry about. TACX send you a free hub removal tool if it ever happens to you, but there haven't been any reports for a long while.
    I ride a bike. Doesn't make me green or a tree hugger. I drive a car too.
  • I would love to get a Neo but the £1100 price is more than I can justify. Halfords have the direto and flux s for £550 and I've heard they're pretty good at sorting out problems (within the warranty at least). So it'll be one of those I think
  • neeb
    neeb Posts: 4,467
    I've had three interactive trainers over the years:

    Tacx Fortius - worked well most of the time but the Tacx software was a PiTA (this was pre-Zwift days so I was using Tacx's "real life videos"). Had a tendency to overheat on long climbs however and this seemed to get worse over a few years of use. It would literally start to emit a slight burning smell and then cut out.. Really frustrating when you are 3/4 of the way up virtual Alpe d'Huez!

    Tacx Bushido - Like Pilthy3 I had all sorts of problems with this. I think the issue was that it didn't plug into the wall, so relied on power generated by the user to create resistance - a good idea in theory but it just didn't work consistently. Eventualy went in a skip.

    Tacx Genius Smart - bought this at the end of 2015 and (remarkably) have had nearlly four years of use out of it without any real issues. Not direct drive but does everything else really well (apart from ERG mode in Zwift but I've never seen the need for that). I use it with my P2M power meter.

    If accuracy is the reason for upgrading I'd seriously think about getting a good crank based PM and using that on Zwift etc - why spend a fortune on accurate power estimation that you can't use outdoors too? Then you only need the trainer to simulate gradients / resistance. A top-end non-direct drive trainer like the Genius can do this very well - I use mine with a Continental indoor training tyre and don't really get any slippage. Considerably cheaper than a top end direct drive trainer, but for accurate power estimation it relies on you already having a separate PM (the power estimation on the trainer itself is not very accutate and a pain to calibrate).

    I'll keep using my Genius until it stops working and then maybe look at a DD trainer like the neo.
  • bobones
    bobones Posts: 1,215
    Unless you're constantly overpowering the Flow or want to compete in Zwift races (where wheel-on trainers are now banned) then spend your money on something else.

    I have had a Vortex (slightly more resistance than the Flow) since 2015 and it's fine for everything I do, but I don't have a powerful sprint, and I don't get any tyre slippage, ever.

    I also have Vector power meter pedals and the Vortex is surprisingly accurate.

    I have a dedicated turbo bike so it's always set up and I don't need to change wheels or calibrate it very often.

    I too have thought about getting a Direto, but the slow reaction puts me off. I have a friend with a Flow and it seems to read about 40-50 watts too low. A Neo would definitely be an improvement, but not £1000 worth of an improvement as far as I am concerned.

    Maybe buy a power meter so you can take your power-based training out on the road with you. Have a look at Xert - it's pretty cool stuff, but you need a PM.
  • I definitely don't over power my flow and wheel slippage only occurs when I first start pedalling so no issues there. I had no idea wheel on trainers had been banned from zwift races, I have done them in the past but only for training. Interesting you say about your friends flow that reads too low, I'd always heard they over read slightly. I am wondering after these posts whether it's worth keeping the flow as it probably does all I need
  • StillGoing
    StillGoing Posts: 5,211
    graememacd wrote:
    I would love to get a Neo but the £1100 price is more than I can justify. Halfords have the direto and flux s for £550 and I've heard they're pretty good at sorting out problems (within the warranty at least). So it'll be one of those I think

    Don't buy a new Neo, go for the old Neo 1 stock that Wiggle are frequently selling off on their eBay site. They often go for less than the Direto etc. Believe me, I thought the same as you, but eventually, you'll realise that you should have bore the pain and bought a Neo.
    I ride a bike. Doesn't make me green or a tree hugger. I drive a car too.
  • bobones
    bobones Posts: 1,215
    graememacd wrote:
    I definitely don't over power my flow and wheel slippage only occurs when I first start pedalling so no issues there. I had no idea wheel on trainers had been banned from zwift races, I have done them in the past but only for training. Interesting you say about your friends flow that reads too low, I'd always heard they over read slightly. I am wondering after these posts whether it's worth keeping the flow as it probably does all I need

    Only banned from official results: you can still take part.

    The Flow is more than good enough, and you won't really get that much more "enjoyment" or better training effect from a more expensive direct drive machine. Not £500-£600 worth anyway. Save your money and maybe buy a PM or some gear to make riding in the winter more enjoyable.
  • neeb
    neeb Posts: 4,467
    bobones wrote:
    graememacd wrote:
    I had no idea wheel on trainers had been banned from zwift races, I have done them in the past but only for training. Interesting you say about your friends flow that reads too low, I'd always heard they over read slightly. I am wondering after these posts whether it's worth keeping the flow as it probably does all I need

    Only banned from official results: you can still take part.
    So they're banned from results fullstop, or only if you are using them to produce your power figures? Can you still use them in conjunction with an accurate power meter?

    (haven't done a Zwift race since the winter..)
  • bobones
    bobones Posts: 1,215
    neeb wrote:
    bobones wrote:
    graememacd wrote:
    I had no idea wheel on trainers had been banned from zwift races, I have done them in the past but only for training. Interesting you say about your friends flow that reads too low, I'd always heard they over read slightly. I am wondering after these posts whether it's worth keeping the flow as it probably does all I need

    Only banned from official results: you can still take part.
    So they're banned from results fullstop, or only if you are using them to produce your power figures? Can you still use them in conjunction with an accurate power meter?

    (haven't done a Zwift race since the winter..)
    You can use them with a power meter.
  • wongataa
    wongataa Posts: 1,001
    bobones wrote:
    I too have thought about getting a Direto, but the slow reaction puts me off.
    I have a Direto. I don't find it too slow to react. You don't want instant changes as that would be like hitting a wall.
  • StillGoing
    StillGoing Posts: 5,211
    wongataa wrote:
    bobones wrote:
    I too have thought about getting a Direto, but the slow reaction puts me off.
    I have a Direto. I don't find it too slow to react. You don't want instant changes as that would be like hitting a wall.

    When you're doing a workout with sprint intervals of 10 secs, you want a reaction quicker than the Direto can manage.

    Look, the Direto is a good mid range direct drive smart trainer, but it isn't up there with the performance standards of the Neo, Drivo, KickR etc. If you don't use the turbo for workouts and only want to ride on Zwift, then the Direto is fine. It just isn't as good as the top of the range trainers for workouts.
    I ride a bike. Doesn't make me green or a tree hugger. I drive a car too.
  • wongataa
    wongataa Posts: 1,001
    I don't tend to do such intervals on my trainer so that will be why I don't have any issues in that regard.
  • StillGoing
    StillGoing Posts: 5,211
    wongataa wrote:
    I don't tend to do such intervals on my trainer so that will be why I don't have any issues in that regard.

    It's because the Direto has a mechanical adjustment with a resistance bolt that electronically screws in and out to alter the resistance. That's too slow for sprint intervals.
    I ride a bike. Doesn't make me green or a tree hugger. I drive a car too.
  • So after listening to all the good advice on here I decided to keep my tacx flow and not upgrade to the direto I was considering.....
    And then a club mate put a wahoo kickr snap on the club forum at a bargain price and I ended up buying that! I have noticed the difference with the bigger flywheel and higher simulated gradients but if anything the workouts feel harder like the flow was over reading. Impressed with the wahoo though and it definitely has a good road feel