Anyone else wish Alaphillipe had gone all the way??

vinnymarsden

Personally I wish he had got to Paris in Yellow..he has been the most animated yellow jersey for a long time...every day the commentators have waited for him to pop and every day the little guy found something to keep the Jersey just one more day, just a pity his team lost their legs for him in the last 3 days. The Queen stage was always going to be a tester..3 climbs all over 2000mtrs, he did well to still be there in my opinion. DQS not really set up as a GC centric team so Chapeau to him, I really do feel for him, he comes across as a nice guy too, just hope it doesn't prey on his mind, in my opinion he's got the stones to get a major tour most definitely.
Then to see Pinot crying...poor fella, you could see quite clearly what it meant to him, another guy who has ridden his nuts off to try and break the Ineos stranglehold, and in so doing they have lit up this years race, and hopefully shown some of the other teams/riders that it can be done.
Iused to like the TDF, then fell out of love because of one teams total boring dominance..this year has been great...hopefully the Vuleta maintains that level of uncertainty..next thing they need to do is ban race radios and it will be even more open!!!!

No_Ta_Doctor

Nope.

I like him as a rider and he made the absolute most of what he had, but French cycling needs to seriously ditch the idea that it's all abut some sort of swashbuckling panache and passion and heart. That's at least part of the reason they've been stuck with a succession of "The Next Virenques" instead of a "The next Hinault". They tend to end up gurning for the camera as The next Voeckler.

Pinot had the right idea - he came prepared. He was serious about winning, and for once looked like he had a real chance. That's the lesson the French should be taking, not Alaphilippe.

me-109

Yep. Perhaps if he hadn't got so involved in sprint lead outs and other stuff - maybe had more self-help that he could actually do it - he and the team could have ridden a more gc race. Chapeau for it though.

Really feel for Pinot too. So close to the end and no sign of any injury to that point.

m.r.m.

Would have loved for him to win, but this Tour was there for the taking. That is over once Froome is back. None of the contenders of this Tour have a chance against him. And Bernal will take over once he is done. All future competition needs to come from currently unknown riders. None of the present ones have the talent/skill in all required disciplines.

RichN95.

Certainly. There's always enthusiasm for a rank outsider. As Eurosport said a week ago, it would be like Leicester City winning the Premiership - who didn't like that. (But with the knowledge that they won because the big teams were crap)

Alejandrosdog

RichN95 wrote:

Certainly. There's always enthusiasm for a rank outsider. As Eurosport said a week ago, it would be like Leicester City winning the Premiership - who didn't like that. (But with the knowledge that they won because the big teams were crap)

But that’s the point, Leicester won because they were the best team, not the all time best ever Chelsea or Man Utd.

If you win the tdf you win it because you’re best of all the contenders. It’s like saying froome was only successful because contador wasn’t on the team.

The Nodder

No. Twenty years ago a good one day racer unexpectedly out-climbed all the specialists (except for the best two who were absent). He didn’t have much in the way of stage racing palmares compared to every winner since, but they were still better than JA’s.

If any rider put his nose in the wind as much as JA did on non-critical stages and still won in the modern era I’d want to believe but would find it hard. The most telling for me was the first part of the Tourmalet stage, before FDJ then Movistar put the pain on, when all the contenders were in the first half of the peloton except for JA, who was bunny hopping around at the back of the peloton, braking and accelerating hard out of every corner.

I like JA, loved his impact on the race, thought in particular his TT through the technical course was superb but ultimately was pleased to see him break.

hypster

I must admit I thought it was fishier than an anchovy's underpants when he destroyed the field in the ITT even though the course supposedly suited him. The stars seemed to be perfectly aligned to put him in yellow in the first place with Thomas being brought down. The fact that he kept the yellow jersey for so long was because all the other teams played in to his hands and allowed him to sit on for so long.

Ultimately the crash that everyone was predicting came when the GC race took off for real and I guess he's got to decide if he wants to be a one day racer or a serious GC candidate.

No, I didn't want him to win but he did go up in my estimation as another great stage race character like Sagan for instance who does unexpected things and enlivens the race. I'll be rooting for him in future.

Jammiedodgeruk

No.
I dont mind him but something about the way he rode didnt sit right with me and Im not suggesting doping, but it was like..whooaa...hang on...youve got the like of Ineos doing month long altitude training...youve got proper GC racers like Pinot on it....youve got riders like Nibali and Quintana knocking about...but hang on, whos this? A one day racer all of sudden is winning TT's against proven TT specialists...a one day racer keeping up with legit mountain specialists...a one day racer coming out of nowhere and sticking it to the likes of Ineos who prepare all year for this race with a £30m budget???

I dont know, there was something that just didnt sit right with him for me, it all looked far to easy for him at times, especially given he didnt exactly have a team around him most of the time going up the mountains. I was glad he cracked.

Pinot on the other hand I wouldnt have minded winning and was gutted for him when he pulled out as that battle between him, Thomas and Bernal was the one to watch.

Having said all that, given the level this year I think a fit Froome would have wiped the floor with them. Part of him must be gutted watching that from his rest bed.

above_the_cows

Can only French and Italian riders have panache?

Discuss.

No_Ta_Doctor

Above The Cows wrote:

Can only French and Italian riders have panache?

Discuss.

Italian riders don't have panache. They have cynical cunning*.

The reckless, foolhardy side of panache is almost totally French as far as I can see.

Riders of all nations are capable of animating races with risky attacking riding, only the French glorify it even when it's a losing strategy.**







*National stereotypes alert - may continue through this entire post. Some degree of irony may be assumed.
**See *

ddraver

It would've been fun but I think that the best guy should win really and I'd say Allaphillipe was about theeeee 5th best?

I've got to say I hope he doesn't fall in to the trap of becoming a GC rider now. Without grabbing a bunch of time when the actual GC teams were looking the other way he wouldn't have been in serious contention. He doesn't want to waste a career being the next Nico Roche when he is already the next Gilbert*

*and....maybe....don't make me....no....the next....aargh...Valverde :shock:

salsiccia1

I would have had no problem with Alaphilippe winning it per se, but I would have found it pretty galling (Gauling?) to see French jubilation over a complete outsider undergoing a transformation and winning it, given their treatment and cynicism toward Sky riders.

As it is, I'm happy with a Bernal win.

iainf72

Above The Cows wrote:

Can only French and Italian riders have panache?

Discuss.

Panache is so overused too.

JA's stage 3 ride - Definitely panache. Ditto when he attacked with Pinot.

But suffering and clinging on for longer than expected in the high mountains? That's not panache, that's just courage.

And to answer the original question. No, absolutely not. Stage 19 and 20 being shortened flattered him with that 5'th place overall.

No_Ta_Doctor

ddraver wrote:

It would've been fun but I think that the best guy should win really and I'd say Allaphillipe was about theeeee 5th best?

I've got to say I hope he doesn't fall in to the trap of becoming a GC rider now. Without grabbing a bunch of time when the actual GC teams were looking the other way he wouldn't have been in serious contention. He doesn't want to waste a career being the next Nico Roche when he is already the next Gilbert*

*and....maybe....don't make me....no....the next....aargh...Valverde :shock:

He's far closer to being a Valverde than a Gilbert. I don't see him riding on cobbles.

If he does want to ride GC then Valverde should be his model. He needs to learn to wheelsuck and hide and measure his efforts. How the reduction in panache will be greeted is up for debate.

coopster_the_1st

ddraver wrote:

It would've been fun but I think that the best guy should win really and I'd say Allaphillipe was about theeeee 5th best?

I've got to say I hope he doesn't fall in to the trap of becoming a GC rider now. Without grabbing a bunch of time when the actual GC teams were looking the other way he wouldn't have been in serious contention. He doesn't want to waste a career being the next Nico Roche when he is already the next Gilbert*

*and....maybe....don't make me....no....the next....aargh...Valverde :shock:

Unless a tour route is designed to suit Allaphillipe!

Put the highest summits early & mid-stage with lower, shorter, steeper summit finishes at the end of the stage, maybe a couple of technical descent finishes as well. Combine with a ITT that suits him. Him training and targeting the GC, and a proper support team and who is going to beat him?

No_Ta_Doctor

Coopster the 1st wrote:

ddraver wrote:

It would've been fun but I think that the best guy should win really and I'd say Allaphillipe was about theeeee 5th best?

I've got to say I hope he doesn't fall in to the trap of becoming a GC rider now. Without grabbing a bunch of time when the actual GC teams were looking the other way he wouldn't have been in serious contention. He doesn't want to waste a career being the next Nico Roche when he is already the next Gilbert*

*and....maybe....don't make me....no....the next....aargh...Valverde :shock:

Unless a tour route is designed to suit Allaphillipe!

Put the highest summits early & mid-stage with lower, shorter, steeper summit finishes at the end of the stage, maybe a couple of technical descent finishes as well. Combine with a ITT that suits him. Him training and targeting the GC, and a proper support team and who is going to beat him?

Bernal, Froome, Dumoulin, Pinot, Thomas....

ShutupJens

No tA Doctor wrote:

Coopster the 1st wrote:

ddraver wrote:

It would've been fun but I think that the best guy should win really and I'd say Allaphillipe was about theeeee 5th best?

I've got to say I hope he doesn't fall in to the trap of becoming a GC rider now. Without grabbing a bunch of time when the actual GC teams were looking the other way he wouldn't have been in serious contention. He doesn't want to waste a career being the next Nico Roche when he is already the next Gilbert*

*and....maybe....don't make me....no....the next....aargh...Valverde :shock:

Unless a tour route is designed to suit Allaphillipe!

Put the highest summits early & mid-stage with lower, shorter, steeper summit finishes at the end of the stage, maybe a couple of technical descent finishes as well. Combine with a ITT that suits him. Him training and targeting the GC, and a proper support team and who is going to beat him?

Bernal, Froome, Dumoulin, Pinot, Thomas....

Nibali

coopster_the_1st

No tA Doctor wrote:

Coopster the 1st wrote:

ddraver wrote:

It would've been fun but I think that the best guy should win really and I'd say Allaphillipe was about theeeee 5th best?

I've got to say I hope he doesn't fall in to the trap of becoming a GC rider now. Without grabbing a bunch of time when the actual GC teams were looking the other way he wouldn't have been in serious contention. He doesn't want to waste a career being the next Nico Roche when he is already the next Gilbert*

*and....maybe....don't make me....no....the next....aargh...Valverde :shock:

Unless a tour route is designed to suit Allaphillipe!

Put the highest summits early & mid-stage with lower, shorter, steeper summit finishes at the end of the stage, maybe a couple of technical descent finishes as well. Combine with a ITT that suits him. Him training and targeting the GC, and a proper support team and who is going to beat him?

Bernal, Froome, Dumoulin, Pinot, Thomas....

Bernal would lose time with a ITT route similar to this year.
Froome has been shown to be exposed on shorter steep climbs where he has not had a chance to get into his climbing rhythm.
Dumoulin could also benefit from this sort of route but in a short MTF sprint Allaphillipe is always going to win and take the bonus seconds
This sort of route would benefit the explosiveness of Pinot
Thomas would need long less steep MTF's to have his best chance.

Lanterne_Rogue

I suspect that the French glorification of panache is because they're not winning, not because there's some national idiocy that insists that it's a sensible strategy. When everyone else is winning it's at least some comfort to be able to say they're doing it the wrong way.

Something similar happened with the British smugness about a lack of success meaning at least 'our' riders weren't using drugs. Millar punctured that fallacy, though I suspect it lives on in the obsession elsewhere that Sky/Ineos must be doping.

The French obsession is at least healthier in that when a French rider wins either they will be deemed to have shown panache despite the evidence, or at worst they will be criticised for not doing so. I suspect it'll be overlooked at the time, and the second rider (the French Froome) will be the one to cop it for riding like any other GC candidate.

RichN95.

No tA Doctor wrote:

ddraver wrote:

It would've been fun but I think that the best guy should win really and I'd say Allaphillipe was about theeeee 5th best?

I've got to say I hope he doesn't fall in to the trap of becoming a GC rider now. Without grabbing a bunch of time when the actual GC teams were looking the other way he wouldn't have been in serious contention. He doesn't want to waste a career being the next Nico Roche when he is already the next Gilbert*

*and....maybe....don't make me....no....the next....aargh...Valverde :shock:

He's far closer to being a Valverde than a Gilbert. I don't see him riding on cobbles.

If he does want to ride GC then Valverde should be his model. He needs to learn to wheelsuck and hide and measure his efforts. How the reduction in panache will be greeted is up for debate.

Valverde's been top 5 in 12 Grand Tours. I'm unconvinced that Alaphilippe has a second in him

No_Ta_Doctor

underlayunderlay wrote:

I suspect that the French glorification of panache is because they're not winning, not because there's some national idiocy that insists that it's a sensible strategy. When everyone else is winning it's at least some comfort to be able to say they're doing it the wrong way.

Something similar happened with the British smugness about a lack of success meaning at least 'our' riders weren't using drugs. Millar punctured that fallacy, though I suspect it lives on in the obsession elsewhere that Sky/Ineos must be doping.

The French obsession is at least healthier in that when a French rider wins either they will be deemed to have shown panache despite the evidence, or at worst they will be criticised for not doing so. I suspect it'll be overlooked at the time, and the second rider (the French Froome) will be the one to cop it for riding like any other GC candidate.

I think it's deeper and more historical than some recent lack of success. Anquetil won 5 tours, but the public loved Poulidor.

On a side note, you're in danger of damaging your brand badly if you post any more thoughtful posts like that.

Pross

The main reason he was in contention so long was because he wasn't considered an overall threat in the long term and so was allowed to pick up time early on. He then defended the jersey hard and did better than anyone expected in the TT and Pyrenees. I suspect what he has achieved is that he and other similar riders won't be let off the leash in future unless they've already shipped a load of time.

I'd have been happy for him to win (although DQS have already dominated the season far more than Sky ever did). Perversely, I think if he had won it might have been a bad thing for French cycling as the pressure would have been off getting a French winner and they could bury their heads in the sand for another 30 years that they're system is all good (ignoring that it took a rider on a foreign team to get them a win).

DeVlaeminck

Yes I'd have liked him to win and yes I'd like a rider to win with panache. Plus as Rich said like most I like an underdog.

I think he rode well - if he'd wheel sucked he'd probably never have worn yellow in the first place. Maybe he'd have held in for a solid 7th though - tbh I can see why the French prefer glorious failure.

Can he win or challenge for a grand tour - I wouldn't rule it out. He didn't just take that time sprinting off unopposed - he took time when all the GC men were flat out, he hung in well on some tough stages and he won a TT. I would say that puts him in the possible GC contender category - but he did crack so he has to prove it - and to prove it he may have to compromise his classics form.

As for Froome coming back and dominating - I'd say there is a huge question mark over that given his age, his injuries and him having the last two Tour winners on his own team.

DeVlaeminck

Also is French cycling really that unsuccessful ? They seem to do OK now - there are more successful nations but France has a decent crop of riders.

ugo.santalucia

No...

Ultimately Bernal is a superstar climber, he is like Quintana 5-6 years ago, but with a better team around him. Alaphilippe will need to do some work, if he wants to last the 3 weeks... personally I think it's not worth it, as his place are the classics and he should look at those + rainbow + gold in Tokyo... lots of riders have spoiled their careers trying to follow the elusive dream of the yellow in Paris

No_Ta_Doctor

ugo.santalucia wrote:

No...

Ultimately Bernal is a superstar climber, he is like Quintana 5-6 years ago, but with a better team around him. Alaphilippe will need to do some work, if he wants to last the 3 weeks... personally I think it's not worth it, as his place are the classics and he should look at those + rainbow + gold in Tokyo... lots of riders have spoiled their careers trying to follow the elusive dream of the yellow in Paris

I agree with this, though note that we said the same about Thomas (admittedly Thomas didn't have near the classics palmares that Alaphilippe has)

No_Ta_Doctor

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Yes I'd have liked him to win and yes I'd like a rider to win with panache. Plus as Rich said like most I like an underdog.

I think he rode well - if he'd wheel sucked he'd probably never have worn yellow in the first place. Maybe he'd have held in for a solid 7th though - tbh I can see why the French prefer glorious failure.

Can he win or challenge for a grand tour - I wouldn't rule it out. He didn't just take that time sprinting off unopposed - he took time when all the GC men were flat out, he hung in well on some tough stages and he won a TT. I would say that puts him in the possible GC contender category - but he did crack so he has to prove it - and to prove it he may have to compromise his classics form.

As for Froome coming back and dominating - I'd say there is a huge question mark over that given his age, his injuries and him having the last two Tour winners on his own team.

I don't think grabbing seconds on his best terrain is panache - it's good attacking racing. Froome has done similar and it was counted as being smart, not foolhardy. Getting involved with the sprint train, not so much. I'd like to see what he could do if he stayed as an attacking rider, had a team built to support him and avoided burning matches trying to hang on (stage 15 wasn't it, where he put himself in the red and risked losing lots of time?)

tailwindhome

It was never going to happen.

But the host nation performing well is good for any event.

slowmart

Both England and France have national sports that other nations have surpassed in terms of capability, professionalism and talent pool.

Past glories are what’s left as winning now isn’t in the same sentence.


As for Alaphilippe, yes I would have liked to see him win, he played a major role for making the tour less about Ineos and more about the possibility that something special and unique was happening.

ugo.santalucia

No tA Doctor wrote:

I agree with this, though note that we said the same about Thomas (admittedly Thomas didn't have near the classics palmares that Alaphilippe has)

I always thought Thomas would win Flanders one day, but he hasn't shown much interest in it, lately...