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Why has GB not got a pro conti team?

specialgueststarspecialgueststar Posts: 3,371
edited April 2019 in Pro race
???

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  • cougiecougie Posts: 22,512
    Because we have half a dozen ?
  • joey54321joey54321 Posts: 1,297
    I don't think we do. Most of the domestic ones are Continental, not Pro Continental
  • AlejandrosdogAlejandrosdog Posts: 1,975
    ???

    There are massive cost differences for not a lot more. i.e. not guaranteed a place at the GTs or monuments but still stuck with a massive budget.
  • Androni-Giocattoli-Sidermec – Italy
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  • RichN95.RichN95. Posts: 25,882
    If your team isn't from a country with a lot of races it can become quite expensive and very hard to get invites to big races. It's more worthwhile to spend a bit more and go WT.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • bobmcstuffbobmcstuff Posts: 10,373
    RichN95 wrote:
    If your team isn't from a country with a lot of races it can become quite expensive and very hard to get invites to big races. It's more worthwhile to spend a bit more and go WT.
    But it's not like there's a surplus of British WT teams either?
  • ProssPross Posts: 31,592
    As above, a lack of races without a lot of travelling together with a lack of sponsors prepared to spend the necessary amount. It hasn't ended happily for the last few to try it.
  • inseineinseine Posts: 5,785
    Is it partly because British riders are more likely to seek a place on a team elsewhere, whereas the other teams are almost totally filled with local riders. Does the British Cycling policy of placing riders in foreign teams (I'm thinking the Raynor fund and Tim Harris's house in Belgium) even exist in other countries?
  • cyclecliniccycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    wheres teasm sky in that list? Beside a teasms nationality is moot the riders are from all over the place. It like the premier leage being called a british league when the clubs are owned globablly and the players from everywhere. It just happens to based here but is now no more british than cycling is french or belgian.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • joey54321joey54321 Posts: 1,297
    wheres teasm sky in that list? Beside a teasms nationality is moot the riders are from all over the place. It like the premier leage being called a british league when the clubs are owned globablly and the players from everywhere. It just happens to based here but is now no more british than cycling is french or belgian.

    Team Sky is a WT team, not a Prot Conti team.
  • inseineinseine Posts: 5,785
    wheres teasm sky in that list? Beside a teasms nationality is moot the riders are from all over the place. It like the premier leage being called a british league when the clubs are owned globablly and the players from everywhere. It just happens to based here but is now no more british than cycling is french or belgian.
    Ignoring the factual error, you're saying that team Sky, with 8 British riders on the team and 8 grand tour wins all by British riders is no more British than Groupama FDJ, for example?
  • lyn1lyn1 Posts: 261
    inseine wrote:
    Is it partly because British riders are more likely to seek a place on a team elsewhere, whereas the other teams are almost totally filled with local riders. Does the British Cycling policy of placing riders in foreign teams (I'm thinking the Raynor fund and Tim Harris's house in Belgium) even exist in other countries?

    Not really. The Rayner fund does a great job in providing support for developing riders to gain experience overseas, but this is in amateur teams. They still need to make the step up to the "proper" pro scene (defined as the top 2 divisions..World Tour or Professional Continental (PC), not Continental, even if these guys are paid)).
    In the last few years, since 2014, the Rayner hit rate has been about 1 in 10. The rest either stay at a lower level or pack it in. If there was a British PC team which employed the extreme levels of nationalism as in the vast majority of PC teams, there would be far greater opportunity for British riders to ride professionally.
    7 riders were lost to the pro scene at the end of last season. Thwaites, Dibben, Shaw (WT) McNally, Christian, Fenn, Pearson (PC). A British PC team could probably have saved most, if not all these guys.
  • RichN95.RichN95. Posts: 25,882
    In 2009 - the last non-Sky year there were:

    7 World Tour GB riders and 8 Pro Conti (4 at Cervelo, 3 at Barloworld and 1 at ISD)

    In 2019 there are:

    20 World Tour GB riders and just 1 Pro Conti (Sam Brand at Novo - a team with a very exclusive recruitment criteria)

    I have no idea what those numbers mean.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • blazing_saddlesblazing_saddles Posts: 19,216
    We've only registered two Pro Conti teams in the past eight seasons.
    Before One Pro Cycling, as far back as 2012 and that well known British institution: Farnese Vini-Neri-Sottoli. :lol:
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • lyn1lyn1 Posts: 261
    RichN95 wrote:
    In 2009 - the last non-Sky year there were:

    7 World Tour GB riders and 8 Pro Conti (4 at Cervelo, 3 at Barloworld and 1 at ISD)

    In 2019 there are:

    20 World Tour GB riders and just 1 Pro Conti (Sam Brand at Novo - a team with a very exclusive recruitment criteria)

    I have no idea what those numbers mean.

    May be worth noting that most of those guys riding Pro Conti at that time all had World Tour team rides at some point. eg Froome, Thomas, Stannard, Cummings, Hunt, Hammond and Lloyd.

    We now have 2 PC riders out of about 450 contracts at that level. Matt Gibson has moved to PC level with Burgos. Struggling to finish races at the moment so hopefully he will soon adjust to this level.
  • AlejandrosdogAlejandrosdog Posts: 1,975
    Maybe the number of British at and pc riders reflect talent then?
  • lyn1lyn1 Posts: 261
    Maybe the number of British at and pc riders reflect talent then?

    No it has very little if anything to do with talent. ..it reflects the fact that Pro Conti level is almost exclusively nationalistic. These are teams that are full of riders from their own nation or region. If your country does not have such a team then you have an extremely low probability of getting a ride.
    https://www.procyclingstats.com/team/bardiani-csf-2019
    https://www.procyclingstats.com/team/di ... ergie-2019
    https://www.procyclingstats.com/team/sp ... loise-2019
    https://www.procyclingstats.com/team/ma ... tobon-2019
    https://www.procyclingstats.com/team/ga ... svelo-2019
    https://www.procyclingstats.com/team/ri ... -team-2019
    https://www.procyclingstats.com/team/w52-fc-porto-2019

    and plenty more examples
  • lyn1lyn1 Posts: 261
    Maybe the number of British at and pc riders reflect talent then?

    Not sure what has led to his DNFs so cannot comment fairly without knowing, but he had decent results last year so he should be ok at PC level.
  • bobmcstuffbobmcstuff Posts: 10,373
    What's Dibben up to? Saw him at the Manchester 6 Day this weekend past.

    He had some ok results as well according to PCS, you'd think he would be a useful rider at pro conti level.
  • markwb79markwb79 Posts: 932
    Isnt it just linked to the amount of riders at that level?

    Pro Conti is usually heavy on riders from that country

    The quality in depth in the UK just isnt as high as Belgium, France or the Netherlands for example.
    Scott Addict 2011
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  • joey54321joey54321 Posts: 1,297
    Markwb79 wrote:
    Isnt it just linked to the amount of riders at that level?

    Pro Conti is usually heavy on riders from that country

    The quality in depth in the UK just isn't as high as Belgium, France or the Netherlands for example.

    Chicken and egg though. Those countries have PC teams to bring on younger riders from that country, likely with older WT riders seeing out a couple of years before retirement and passing on experience. British riders at the moment have to make the (very large) jump from Continental to WT in one go, which I guess only the best/most promising can do.
  • ShutupJensShutupJens Posts: 1,373
    When we had One Pro Cycling at Pro Conti level, a mate of mine rode for them. He spent all his time going to race obscure UCI events that even the biggest cycling nerds probably haven't heard of, and there was zero team presence at some of the better publicised british races - Tour Series and the Elite Crits basically. At least at those events you can invite sponsors along for a spot of hospitality etc, rather than some second tier polish stage race that has no coverage at all
  • lyn1lyn1 Posts: 261
    ShutupJens wrote:
    When we had One Pro Cycling at Pro Conti level, a mate of mine rode for them. He spent all his time going to race obscure UCI events that even the biggest cycling nerds probably haven't heard of, and there was zero team presence at some of the better publicised british races - Tour Series and the Elite Crits basically. At least at those events you can invite sponsors along for a spot of hospitality etc, rather than some second tier polish stage race that has no coverage at all

    I would not dispute what you say, but must assume that the person you refer to was not riding well enough to be given higher quality races. One Pro had a very good program for a new PC team. They were invited to and raced at events won by, Van Avermaet, Degenkolb, Froome, Van Aert, Gaveria, Cummings, Groenewegan, Valverde, Boonen, Contador, Coquard, Kristoff & Terpstra...just to name a few.
    https://www.procyclingstats.com/team/on ... cling-2016
    The issue from a development perspective is that British riders get the opportunity to race regularly against far better riders and show their ability.
    Your sponsorship point is clearly important. Ideally a British company that emphasises the inclusion of a significant proportion of British riders, yet has interest in European markets would be preferable.
  • lyn1lyn1 Posts: 261
    Apologies dual post
  • ShutupJensShutupJens Posts: 1,373
    lyn1 wrote:
    ShutupJens wrote:
    When we had One Pro Cycling at Pro Conti level, a mate of mine rode for them. He spent all his time going to race obscure UCI events that even the biggest cycling nerds probably haven't heard of, and there was zero team presence at some of the better publicised british races - Tour Series and the Elite Crits basically. At least at those events you can invite sponsors along for a spot of hospitality etc, rather than some second tier polish stage race that has no coverage at all

    I would not dispute what you say, but must assume that the person you refer to was not riding well enough to be given higher quality races. One Pro had a very good program for a new PC team. They were invited to and raced at events won by, Van Avermaet, Degenkolb, Froome, Van Aert, Gaveria, Cummings, Groenewegan, Valverde, Boonen, Contador, Coquard, Kristoff & Terpstra...just to name a few.
    https://www.procyclingstats.com/team/on ... cling-2016
    The issue from a development perspective is that British riders get the opportunity to race regularly against far better riders and show their ability.
    Your sponsorship point is clearly important. Ideally a British company that emphasises the inclusion of a significant proportion of British riders, yet has interest in European markets would be preferable.

    You mean apart from Omloop, Tour of Poland, jersey wearer/winner at Tours of Britain and Yorkshire, a middle east race and a podium at Tro Bro Leon. Granted that steps on the toes of my argument a touch but these races weren't expected to bring home UCI points - in order to do that they had to go and do the races that get no TV time, are expensive to get to and return very little in the way of publicity, hence the difficulty in securing the necessary sponsorship to allow them to stay at that level for more than a season. They still rode the big domestic tours as well as the one day UCI races over after dropping down as well as being able to get regular TV coverage at the Tour Series in their home market, so I can see why stepping up to Pro Conti is something of a poisoned chalice
  • ShutupJensShutupJens Posts: 1,373
    lyn1 wrote:
    ShutupJens wrote:
    When we had One Pro Cycling at Pro Conti level, a mate of mine rode for them. He spent all his time going to race obscure UCI events that even the biggest cycling nerds probably haven't heard of, and there was zero team presence at some of the better publicised british races - Tour Series and the Elite Crits basically. At least at those events you can invite sponsors along for a spot of hospitality etc, rather than some second tier polish stage race that has no coverage at all

    I would not dispute what you say, but must assume that the person you refer to was not riding well enough to be given higher quality races. One Pro had a very good program for a new PC team. They were invited to and raced at events won by, Van Avermaet, Degenkolb, Froome, Van Aert, Gaveria, Cummings, Groenewegan, Valverde, Boonen, Contador, Coquard, Kristoff & Terpstra...just to name a few.
    https://www.procyclingstats.com/team/on ... cling-2016
    The issue from a development perspective is that British riders get the opportunity to race regularly against far better riders and show their ability.
    Your sponsorship point is clearly important. Ideally a British company that emphasises the inclusion of a significant proportion of British riders, yet has interest in European markets would be preferable.

    You mean apart from Omloop, Tour of Poland, jersey wearer/winner at Tours of Britain and Yorkshire, a middle east race and a podium at Tro Bro Leon. Granted that steps on the toes of my argument a touch but these races weren't expected to bring home UCI points - in order to do that they had to go and do the races that get no TV time, are expensive to get to and return very little in the way of publicity, hence the difficulty in securing the necessary sponsorship to allow them to stay at that level for more than a season. They still rode the big domestic tours as well as the one day UCI races over after dropping down as well as being able to get regular TV coverage at the Tour Series in their home market, so I can see why stepping up to Pro Conti is something of a poisoned chalice
  • joey54321joey54321 Posts: 1,297
    Wait, are you saying Omloop, Tour of Poland, Tours of Britain and Yorkshire, the middle eastern race and Tro Bro Leon are "obscure UCI races that even the biggest cycling nerds probably haven't heard of"????

    They are some pretty big races with a lot of TV exposure around the world.
  • ShutupJensShutupJens Posts: 1,373
    joey54321 wrote:
    Wait, are you saying Omloop, Tour of Poland, Tours of Britain and Yorkshire, the middle eastern race and Tro Bro Leon are "obscure UCI races that even the biggest cycling nerds probably haven't heard of"????

    They are some pretty big races with a lot of TV exposure around the world.

    I'm not - I did say that steps on the toes of my argument - Pete being one of the more experienced riders got the chance to do these which is great, and these are the obvious races for the team to draw attention to. Without sounding harsh it wasn't like you would see a great deal of them on the TV coverage though - Tob and TDY aside which they still rode at conti level anyway.. whereas riding the tour of Korea to pick up some easy UCI points to continue to meet the criteria probably doesn't do a great deal for largely British sponsors, compared to perhaps riding the tour series
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