Pedal Width

mbrune

Looking for some input on the proper pedal width to use. I have been using Shimano spd-sl pedals, normal width, but bought a new bike which changes where my feet sit. My legs and feet are a bit odd. I am bow-legged and walk with a substantial pigeon toedness, when I ride, I ride with my knees fairly close to the top tube, but though my legs move mostly vertically my leg shape pushes my feet out wider. I’ve also always set up my pedals with a toe out position to match the bow legged nature of my walk, and achieve a comfortable knee position but now I’m second guessing this setup. I recently bought Shimano xl spd-sl pedals (ultegra) so that I could continue to ride heels in, and hopefully save my knees, but I’m second guessing the purchase. Any advice on how to achieve the proper setup, and when wider pedals are actually necessary would be appreciated as it will help guide my decision on what to use.

Thank you!

giropaul

Do you mean the width of the actual pedal, or the distance between the pedal and the opposite pedal across the bike ( the width of your stance) . This is sometimes referred to as the Q measurement.

If it is this measurement then you can get spacers or pedal extenders to place the pedals further out. Some makes of pedal also offer more than one length of pedal spindle.

First.Aspect

Why are you second guessing things?

Q-factor does differ between different cranks, but should be within range of side to side cleat adjustment.

Alternatively, go for some pedals with some free float through the pedal stroke, like Speedplays.

svetty

mbrune wrote:

but bought a new bike which changes where my feet sit.

Can you elaborate? Do you mean that the Q factor is wider/narrower than your previous bike?

cougie

I think you should carry on with the method that works for you.

imposter2.0

Svetty wrote:

mbrune wrote:

but bought a new bike which changes where my feet sit.

Can you elaborate? Do you mean that the Q factor is wider/narrower than your previous bike?

Maybe he bought a recumbent..

mbrune

Svetty wrote:

mbrune wrote:

but bought a new bike which changes where my feet sit.

Can you elaborate? Do you mean that the Q factor is wider/narrower than your previous bike?

Q-factor on new bike is wider than old, but the real issue is that the chainstay is wider, so my heel has a tendency to make contact on the stroke through. This alone has made it necessary to add 2mm of spacers to the setup to make the pedal width a little wider. I also already run with my cleats as wide as possible, so I’m wondering if I’d be better off going with the wider pedal width (XL) or trying to straighten my stance. Either way I’d prefer to run without 2 mm of spacers in the mix.

neeb

As others have said it sounds as if what you are talking about is the distance between the attachment points of your feet - this is determined by q factor, which is the distance between the points at the ends of the cranks where the pedals attach, the pedals themselves (mostly the spindle length) and where you have the cleats attached to your shoes.

Sounds like you need your feet quite widely spaced. First thing to try would be attaching the cleats as far towards the inside of the sole as they will go. If that's not enough you might need longer spindles, and you might be better with a different pedal system. I use custom titanium spindles from these people: http://www.titaniumspindles.com/ which can be supplied in a range of lengths (email them for details, not everything is on the website).

<edit - this all typed before seeing your latest reply!>>

Also sounds like you'd really benefit from a bike fit from someone who specialises in shoe fitting - they will be able to work out exactly what width you need to let your feet find their natural position while letting your knees track as straight as possible. They might also recommend shims to correct the foot angle and/or slight leg length difference. Well worth the cost and unlike other types of bike fit once you are "dialled in" for foot position you're unlikely to need to change it much.

mbrune

neeb wrote:

Also sounds like you'd really benefit from a bike fit from someone who specialises in shoe fitting - they will be able to work out exactly what width you need to let your feet find their natural position while letting your knees track as straight as possible. They might also recommend shims to correct the foot angle and/or slight leg length difference. Well worth the cost and unlike other types of bike fit once you are "dialled in" for foot position you're unlikely to need to change it much.

Thank you for the reply and info, probably is worth a fitting, last time I did one I was disappointed with the advice and now thinking that with the right information I could achieve the fitting at home with a bit of analysis. When I had my fitting I was told that knee tracking wasn’t that useful, so he didn’t evaluate what my knees were doing. Is a vertical track what I want? Is it possible that I could achieve that in many different cleat and pedal positions? I was surprised that the new bike had a wider Q factor, as well as that the chain stay was now striking my heel. As I said I could straighten my foot, but when hanging it off a table it pigeon toes, I’m assuming it’s better for my knees if I preserve my natural foot position, but I’m unsure what that does to power. Probably very difficult to ascertain without measuring power output and seeing my dynamic foot and leg movements, but I can record those at home if I know what I’m looking for. I don’t mind meddling while getting this all dialed in, but I hesitate to do another fitting just to have the fitter dismiss my concern. Another fitting outfit would likely be better, but it is a drive to get there and I don’t have the time right now.

As you have special spindles, do you have a wider stance? What motivated you to go with longer spindles?

Again thanks for the help.

neeb

There's a massive difference between bike fitters, some of them don't have a clue and even the ones that do tend to specialise. You want to find one who is really into feet and knee tracking.

I'm no expert but AFAIK knee tracking is pretty important for long-term knee health (or at least avoiding extremes of lateral movement), suprised that your fitter thought otherwise.

As you have special spindles, do you have a wider stance? What motivated you to go with longer spindles?

I also get on best with a heel-in position, which needs the pedals to be slightly wider if the knees are to track straight. If I have my cleats/shoes set with the heel too far out or with too much float (allowing the heel to drift out) it seems to aggravate some tendon or ligament on the inside side of my kneecap.

mbrune

neeb wrote:

]
I also get on best with a heel-in position, which needs the pedals to be slightly wider if the knees are to track straight. If I have my cleats/shoes set with the heel too far out or with too much float (allowing the heel to drift out) it seems to aggravate some tendon or ligament on the inside side of my kneecap.

Good info, do your knees track pretty close to the top tube, or are they out wider. I find my knees still track pretty close to the top tube with the wider pedals, and tack fairly linearly with the exception of a bump at the top and bottom. As my knees don’t meet square (femur to tibia isn’t a straight line connection) I’m not sure this can be avoided. Widening the pedals does seem to push my knees in closer to the top tube however, and I assume that’s because my energy is being wasted in more lateral than vertical action between the joints.

Good luck figuring out your knee pain. After 3 surgeries I try to be pretty careful with what types of stresses I put on my knees, but generally I haven’t had many issues while riding. New bike means new adjustments... Hopefully that works out in the end.

neeb

I'd say that my knees are pretty average in terms of distance from the top tube. I'm lucky that with my ideal pedal setup and my heels pointing in a bit they don't quite hit the chainstays (although they are really close to brushing the stays).

Haven't had any knee problems at all since I got properly fitted. It was only ever something that occurred on the bike and just tendon aggravation, but proper setup was the key to avoiding it.

mbrune

neeb wrote:

I'd say that my knees are pretty average in terms of distance from the top tube. I'm lucky that with my ideal pedal setup and my heels pointing in a bit they don't quite hit the chainstays (although they are really close to brushing the stays).

Haven't had any knee problems at all since I got properly fitted. It was only ever something that occurred on the bike and just tendon aggravation, but proper setup was the key to avoiding it.

Thanks for the information, I think my pigeon toedness is exacerbated by the size of my feet. On the old bike I just missed the chain stay, on the new one, it’s just enough larger that contact is made. I could try to straighten my pedaling stance, but I think that will add more movement to my knee tracking.

neeb

How far forward are your cleats? If you moved them back a little it might just stop your heels hitting the stays with the same stance. Big debate about how far back cleats should go and I’m not a fan of unusually far back cleats myself, but it’s an idea. You’d need to lower your saddle a bit to compensate.

alan_sherman

Is your new bike a disc bike? I occasionally scuff the chainstay on my non-disc bike and moving to a disk bike (with the 5mm wider rear axle plus the disc brake fitting on the nearside) I think this would be worse.

I ride a few bikes and have no issues with MTB (or hybrid) crank Q factor so might look for a crank with a wide Q factor. Another option are the pedal axle extenders.
https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/pedals-clea ... -916-inch/
https://www.sigmasports.com/item/Specia ... tender/NLY

mbrune

neeb wrote:

How far forward are your cleats? If you moved them back a little it might just stop your heels hitting the stays with the same stance. Big debate about how far back cleats should go and I’m not a fan of unusually far back cleats myself, but it’s an idea. You’d need to lower your saddle a bit to compensate.

Cleats are about as far forward as I'm willing to take them. Did change that with the new bike setup simply because I had been riding pretty far out previously. Would like to bring them back a little bit, but moving forward did give a little space.

mbrune

alan sherman wrote:

Is your new bike a disc bike? I occasionally scuff the chainstay on my non-disc bike and moving to a disk bike (with the 5mm wider rear axle plus the disc brake fitting on the nearside) I think this would be worse.

I ride a few bikes and have no issues with MTB (or hybrid) crank Q factor so might look for a crank with a wide Q factor. Another option are the pedal axle extenders.
https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/pedals-clea ... -916-inch/
https://www.sigmasports.com/item/Specia ... tender/NLY

Yeah, discovered when purchasing that a disc brake bike was not for me, added way to much width the the rearend, pushed chainstays out so far that I would strike them midfoot. Went with rim brakes instead but chainstays are still wider than on the old aluminum bike (it had a curve in the chainstay that fit my foot perfectly)

keef66

I've always understood pigeon toed to mean toes / feet pointing inwards. I'm guessing since your heels are hitting the chainstays that yours point outwards and your heels in?

mbrune

keef66 wrote:

I've always understood pigeon toed to mean toes / feet pointing inwards. I'm guessing since your heels are hitting the chainstays that yours point outwards and your heels in?

Yes, I mean toes pointed out, I could have it backwards, I thought duck footed was pointed in, pigeon toed pointed out. Probably should look it up.

svetty

mbrune wrote:

neeb wrote:

How far forward are your cleats? If you moved them back a little it might just stop your heels hitting the stays with the same stance. Big debate about how far back cleats should go and I’m not a fan of unusually far back cleats myself, but it’s an idea. You’d need to lower your saddle a bit to compensate.

Cleats are about as far forward as I'm willing to take them. Did change that with the new bike setup simply because I had been riding pretty far out previously. Would like to bring them back a little bit, but moving forward did give a little space.

If your heels are clipping the chainstay moving your cleats back on the shoes should give more clearance not less - sounds as if you've moved them the wrong way.

mbrune

Svetty wrote:

mbrune wrote:

neeb wrote:

How far forward are your cleats? If you moved them back a little it might just stop your heels hitting the stays with the same stance. Big debate about how far back cleats should go and I’m not a fan of unusually far back cleats myself, but it’s an idea. You’d need to lower your saddle a bit to compensate.

Cleats are about as far forward as I'm willing to take them. Did change that with the new bike setup simply because I had been riding pretty far out previously. Would like to bring them back a little bit, but moving forward did give a little space.

If your heels are clipping the chainstay moving your cleats back on the shoes should give more clearance not less - sounds as if you've moved them the wrong way.

Yes, I stated it backwards, moved the cleat backwards on the shoe, moving my foot forward, allowing more clearance for my heel. I'm at the end of the cleat movement to the rear, can't go any further and actually will be moving them a little forward because right now they are too far back for my liking.