What to buy? Cube Agree, Cervelo R3, or Something Else?

mbrune

Yes, I'm starting another "what to buy" thread. But in my defense, dropping 2-3k on a bike is a bit daunting and I want to LOVE it! (as says everyone) Anyway, I currently ride a 2011 Specialized Secteur Sport, if your unfamiliar with the bike as it's been discontinued/replaced it is an "endurance" bike made of aluminum. It's not as relaxed as some endurance bikes, stack of 643 with a reach of 398, but definitely more relaxed than more traditional bikes. It has the full 40mm of spacers above the head tube and used to have a flipped stem as it was sold that way. I recently flipped it down to get a bit more aggressive. I haven't done more than 40 miles like this however, but I'm not worried that it wouldn't be sustainable. Anyway, the old bike has a cracked rear wheel and very stretched sprockets on the chainrings. I could replace these elements, but want to take advantage of the opportunity and invest the money in a new ride instead.

What I want is a bike that is slightly more aggressive, yet comfortable for long rides. I tend to ride a lot of climbs and have come to enjoy decently long rides. Hovering around 60-80 for most rides with over 2000 - 3000 ft of climb. I participated in a sportive that was 90 miles with 7000 ft of climb last summer and have my eye on a longer one for next summer. I also understand that aero is where the biggest advantage is, though on hills it would be great to have a lightweight frame. So in short, I want it all. The perfect balance of long distance comfort, lightness, power transfer, and aero all at 3k or less.

A few bikes stand out to meet my demands. Unfortunately, as I'm 6'4" I can't find a single bike shop carrying anything like what I want in my size. So I basically have to order the bike sight unseen. This leaves the comfort end of things up for debate and is a bit frustrating. What I like best from reading the marketing and reviews so far is the Cervelo R3, it sounds like an awesome and responsive bike, but I'm concerned about how harsh it is. I can get one for around $3300 and am hoping that price will come down a bit more so that I can actually afford it. Next is the Cube Agree, supposedly slightly aero, stiff, and lighter than the r3 with some built in frame comfort for longer rides. The Cube would have to be ordered online and unfortunately if a warranty claim were needed then I am screwed. After those two I'm not sure, the Trek Emonda, and Domane interest me, but the Domane is more upright than my current bike (albeit I could lose all spacers and make it more aggressive), i'm also a bit concerned that I'll lose responsiveness in favor of comfort with the domane. The emonda is similar in geometry to my current bike while being slightly more aggressive but I don't get as excited about the frame. I could also go the route of specialized with the roubaix but again, worried that comfort will mean less responsive frame. Balance is hard to find...

Anyway, looking for advice from others who do similar style of riding. What would you go with? Why?

Thanks for reading my novel, any advice is welcome.

w00dster

Don’t get the bike that doesn’t float your boat so to speak. I have the Domane, it’s a very good, comfortable bike. Mine is reasonably aggressive, not too dissimilar to my old Edmonda that was H1 fit. I really liked the Edmonds SLR, but if you’re unsure about the looks, then I’d rule it out.
What R3 are you looking at? 2019 ultegra disc? I certainly wouldn’t worry about the harshness, but then I also ride a canyon aeroad and can’t tell the difference between that and my domane (if on same tyres).
Having looked at the Cubes online, never ridden one, but on appearance I prefer the Cervelo. Any links to the cube?

Is Canyon not an option for where you are based? Endurance CF SL 8.0 Disc DI2 is $3500, over budget but pretty good spec bike for that money. For bang on $3000 the Endurace SL Disc pro 8.0 (campag), nicer colour option. Or go all out on the budget, recommend what you ride so to speak.....
https://www.canyon.com/en-us/road/aeroa ... lx-8-0-di2

mbrune

w00dster wrote:

What R3 are you looking at? 2019 ultegra disc? I certainly wouldn’t worry about the harshness, but then I also ride a canyon aeroad and can’t tell the difference between that and my domane (if on same tyres).
Having looked at the Cubes online, never ridden one, but on appearance I prefer the Cervelo. Any links to the cube?

The Canyon's do look like pretty sweet bikes, they are all a little more aggressive seeming (based solely on geometry) than either the cube or the cervelo. I'm looking at the 2018 R3 rim, as the disc version adds a decent bit to a bike that's already outside of my limit. Interesting that you don't notice a difference between the domane and your Canyon, as retailers would have it Domane is supposedly like a Cadillac. I also like the look of the Cervelo better, but I'm not sure I can justify the extra money when the Cube comes with Di2 and a slightly more aero wheelset. (though still not ultralight) Link to the cube below.

Cube: https://www.cube.eu/en/y/bikes/road/roa ... nred-2018/

How far do you ride the Canyon on average? Any difference in how you feel on a long ride off of either bike? Thanks!

w00dster

The cube link didn’t work, error 404. DI2 is awesome, didn’t think I’d like it as much as I do, but for road riding I wouldn’t go back. Looking at a UK cube with DI2 it has 32mm wheels. I wouldn’t see these as aero. Probably 45mm is what is perceived to be where aero benefits take effect. I have stock shallow rim, 40mm, 50 and 62mm. I can notice the 62mm but not the others so much. The 40mm wheels are my preferred wheel for aesthetics, but don’t think there’s aero gains.
I ride now on average about 150 miles per week, one long ride, normally about 70 to 80 miles. The rest are short interval type rides (I race crits, so training is based on this, approx 1.5 hour rides). During dry weather it’s on the aeroad, wet weather rides on the Domane.
The domane is comfortable, but it’s more the fact that it has 32mm tyres on at 55psi. I’ve even used the domane for gravel races, with 33mm knobbly tyres. It’s a good all rounder. It does have the front and rear isospeed, but I don’t really notice any difference. The Aeroad on 25mm tyres with 90psi isn’t uncomfortable. I don’t finish a ride feeling beaten up. I think I’m a bit weird though as I had a Madone H1 fit and did lots of very big rides (150 to 220 miles) on that, again no comfort issues at all.

The below gallery shows my Domane’s (black and red & also black and green). Also my old Edmonda SLR H1 fit (white and blue) sat next to a Domane for geometry reference (kind of!).The Domane isn’t necessarily a sit up and beg ride and has decent tyre clearance for dry gravel rides with knobbly tyres.

http://s1025.photobucket.com/user/w00ds ... t=3&page=1

mbrune

Interesting comments on the wheels, good info from a anecdotal perspective. If you don't perceive any gains it's probably nominal all right. You have some pretty nice bikes in your stable. I do like the trek SLR bikes, including the Madone, but they just aren't affordable enough for me, and when you step down to the sl version of the domane and emonda I'm less excited. You're domane doesn't seem too upright though, i suppose if you slam the stem it's going to feel lower than my secteur. The h1 emonda is clearly more aggressive, perhaps a bit beyond what my body can handle but a nice looking bike. Clearly if you are racing crits you are way above my performance level, but being comfortable for 150 miles on an aggressive bike is something.
I might take another look at Canyon as I know they are well regarded and you like yours, the reach on all of their bikes is quite a bit more than others I'm comparing against. I'm pretty symmetric in my build but really not sure what extending will do to my back after a few hours in the saddle.

Thanks again for the info, it's interesting to see the side by side of the two bikes. I'm itching to get something new just to fuel my desire to push it. Get the engine going!

w00dster

I’ll do a side by side comparison tonight of my Domane against my Aeroad and will upload that to my photobucket account. I’m 46, the least flexible person I know but have no problems with getting into the drops on the aeroad.
The aeroad is also a bigger frame than the domane, I was lucky enough to be able to test ride a couple of different sizes, I went with what feels longer and lower.
With regards to wheels/aero performance, I’m pretty sure it was in a video from an aerospace engineer called Hambini over here in the UK who said 45mm, this statement is from Enve ““A mid-depth rim gives the best compromise between weight, inertia, responsiveness and drag reduction," he says. “Our development at Enve has shown us that you need a minimum 35mm rim depth to start to control and improve the flow of the air, while at higher depths it’s all about trading weight for aero."””We find that in general, a 45-55mm wheelset is perfect for our 75kg average rider; it’s deep enough to really feel the aero benefits, but light enough that a 75kg rider wouldn’t notice the weight when climbing," he says.
Most importantly though, 40 to 45mm on a non aero specific bike looks the nuts as well.
Here’s Hambinis blog, worth looking at the table listing the different wheels and depths. There’s not an awful lot of watts difference between 35mm and 60mm, less than 10 watts if using Shimano c35. You can see how it’s a sliding scale. It also shows you don’t need to spend large chunks of money on wheels, yoeleo wheels scored very highly.

https://www.hambini.com/blog/post/bicyc ... s-fastest/

cookeeemonster

I can't comment on the Cube or Cervelo but I had a reasonably high end domane (£3300 RRP over here which I thankfully got a big discount on) and I currently have a Canyon Ultimate SL Disc.

Yeah the Domane was comfortable...but also tank like to me in truth. Didn't feel fast and compared to my sunday best bike at the time (an old bottom of the range heavier Venge with cheap carbon wheels) wasn't anywhere near as fast in reality either. It had 40mm Vision metron wheels, a minus 17 degree stem fitted and spacers slammed...plus the same tyres as I had on my venge and...yeah, just didn't compare for me. Of course I'm comparing apples with pears - they are different bikes with a different purpose in mind...but you mentioned the responsiveness thing and so I think it's appropriate of me to mention that to me, it wasn't 'responsive'.

Sold it and got the Canyon (£800 cheaper RRP) and it just utterly blows it away (and my Venge, which I sold. Apparently it's not just about aero). It's at least as comfortable to me too, possibly due to the seatpost which will flex a bit. You can set it up less aggressive of course else the endurance version they have (the endurace) might be more for you.

mbrune

w00dster wrote:

I’ll do a side by side comparison tonight of my Domane against my Aeroad and will upload that to my photobucket account..

https://www.hambini.com/blog/post/bicyc ... s-fastest/

Great info on aerodynamics and wheels, a very interesting read. I guess I'll be checking out aero wheels as I look for upgrades in the future regardless of what I by. I'll look forward to the side by side of your domane vs Aeroad, if for nothing else than just to drool over some sweet bikes .

mbrune

CookeeeMonster wrote:

Yeah the Domane was comfortable...but also tank like to me in truth. Didn't feel fast and compared to my sunday best bike .

Basically what I was wondering, it makes sense to me that if you soften the feel of a ride, your also softening the power transfer which means more work for the same result. With domane, however, I was hoping that they maintained frame stiffness in the bottom bracket and fork as the isospeed is designed to take out the harsh road vibrations that a stiffer frame might transmit. Your real world experience differs with that. Canyon seems to come up a lot, I just wish I could see one in person before buying, but the same is true of the Cube. The only reason the Cube interests me is that it has good reviews, has di2, and is relatively inexpensive for what you get when compared to other models. It's also supposed to be a mix of aero and endurance whilst remaining stiff. Hard to quantify without riding it, but it seems like riding a bike before spending $3k is a luxury most are unwilling to provide when you're on the tall side. Thanks for the info on your experience. What is your power output generally? I'm not the strongest rider, but I think that with all the climbing I do a stiff frame would just feel more rewarding. Perhaps I'm mistaken. I'm very limited by only having ridden one road bike in this regard. Thank you all for letting me draw on your collective experiences.

mbrune

w00dster wrote:

I’ll do a side by side comparison tonight of my Domane against my Aeroad and will upload that to my photobucket account..

Interesting looking at the two together, you can tell the canyon is noticeably longer but not as much lower as I expected given the stack height comparisons. Does it feel considerably lower when you're riding? Pretty sweet bike, I love the all black canyons, they look slick! The shape of that top tube looks pretty mean too.

Thanks for uploading.

I'm 38, and knowing that you are kicking butt and a little older gives me hope for continued improvement in my performance.

kingrollo

I ve just brought a kuota khydra ...in the very limited miles i have done its a really nice bike if you want something a bit different.
the non disc version is the kiral. very relaxed geometrey. I have di2 which i really like.

rwoofer

I've got a 2018 Cervelo R3, which I've had for 3 months. I replaced a BMC Gran Fondo and I would say the R3 is a lot more comfortable, while being far more responsive. Basically in a different league. The bike radar review seems to come to a similar conclusion, which is what made me pull the trigger.

The geometry is quite relaxed for a race bike, getting close to Endurance frames, so I ride it completely slammed with a 130mm stem. BTW I'm a 6'6" 50 yo and have a 61cm frame.

mbrune

rwoofer wrote:

The geometry is quite relaxed for a race bike, getting close to Endurance frames, so I ride it completely slammed with a 130mm stem. BTW I'm a 6'6" 50 yo and have a 61cm frame.

Those reviews are what piqued my interest as well, the bike sounds awesome, glad to know that their are tall riders out there who find it a good fit and comfortable as well. I'm going in for a fit on the r3 today so I can see get an idea where I would be body position wise, can't get on the actual bike as they don't have one, but should be interesting none the less.

Thank you for relating your experience, it's good to confirm those positive reviews.

asprilla

I love my R3. Mine is the 2016 version, but the geometry is the same. I've got long legs and a short body and so generally need something with a higher stack / reach ratio than most folks (my commuter is a Canyon Endurace) so the R3 is a little on the low side compared to what I'd usually look at, but it is incredibly comfortably and it's fast enough for me.

mbrune

Asprilla wrote:

I love my R3. Mine is the 2016 version, but the geometry is the same. I've got long legs and a short body and so generally need something with a higher stack / reach ratio than most folks (my commuter is a Canyon Endurace) so the R3 is a little on the low side compared to what I'd usually look at, but it is incredibly comfortably and it's fast enough for me.

Yeah, it looks like a great bike. I think it would fit me alright, the one concern I have is that I have large feet and red pigeon toed. I wonder if I'm going to have an issue with my heal striking the chainstay. I rode a felt aero bike yesterday just for kicks and my foot hit on every revolution, it was maddening. The cervelo chainstay length is the same as that felt so now I'm worried. I'm wondering if others with the cervelo have had this issue!

w00dster

Wouldn't your heel striking the chain stay be down to the cleat positioning? I'm only a UK 43 so not big footed, but would have thought as long as your cleats were correct that your foot would always miss the chainstay?
As I say though, not something I've ever had to consider.
The one guy I know with an R3 is a tall bloke, probably 6 foot 2, he's never mentioned heel hitting the frame every pedal stroke. Also Dan Lloyd from GNC is reasonably tall, he also doesn't mention heel strike when he rode for the Cervelo Test Team....he does mention the team quite a lot!

mbrune

w00dster wrote:

Wouldn't your heel striking the chain stay be down to the cleat positioning? I'm only a UK 43 so not big footed, but would have thought as long as your cleats were correct that your foot would always miss the chainstay?
As I say though, not something I've ever had to consider.
The one guy I know with an R3 is a tall bloke, probably 6 foot 2, he's never mentioned heel hitting the frame every pedal stroke. Also Dan Lloyd from GNC is reasonably tall, he also doesn't mention heel strike when he rode for the Cervelo Test Team....he does mention the team quite a lot!

To some degree it does come down to cleat position, however, if I position my cleats so that my foot is straight in the clips then I develop serious knee pain as it's not a natural position for my knees to be in for hours, especially under stress. On my current bike the chain-stay is a cm longer and has a curve that my heel finds perfectly helping me avoid frame contact. I'm sure I could work around the issue, possibly by extending the pedals further out, but my brain sees extending the pedals as adding more lateral torque which in turn will reduce the efficiency of the stroke. Or am I mistaken in this thinking?

rwoofer

Well I have wide size 47/48 feet and haven't yet hit the chainstay. I do use long shaft Dura Ace pedals (extra 4mm), but even without them I doubt I would hit the chainstay.

mbrune

rwoofer wrote:

Well I have wide size 47/48 feet and haven't yet hit the chainstay. I do use long shaft Dura Ace pedals (extra 4mm), but even without them I doubt I would hit the chainstay.

Thank you for the info, I did find a R5 and clipped in, I made contact on both sides. Didn't realize that you could get extra wide pedals from shimano, I'll be looking for those! Probably would be more comfortable anyway as there is no way my hips are the same width as someone riding a 54cm frame, yet my pedals are set up the same.

rwoofer

I think only Dura Ace pedals come extra wide. They tend to be on deals every now and then at around £125.

https://www.sigmasports.com/item/Shimano/Dura-Ace-9100-Carbon-SPD-SL-Road-Pedals-4mm-Longer-Axle/DVU2

mbrune

rwoofer wrote:

I think only Dura Ace pedals come extra wide. They tend to be on deals every now and then at around £125.

https://www.sigmasports.com/item/Shimano/Dura-Ace-9100-Carbon-SPD-SL-Road-Pedals-4mm-Longer-Axle/DVU2

Thanks again! I did find Ultegra ones as well, a bit cheaper. Looks like I'll have to add that to the list of new bike expenses.

mbrune

I think I'm going to order the R3 tomorrow, hopefully it lives up to my expectations and excitement. I think it will be a sweet bike, but is far more aggressive than my current one. Though with max spacers it comes pretty close to the same. I've been a little more aggressive lately anyway, have over 2" of drop to the bar since august, which is a big change from having a level bar for the summer. I'm a bit worried that for my rides over 100 miles this might not be comfortable, but many of you on here have no problem maintaining that position. I'm a pretty tall guy, with average arms for my frame so hopefully it's a good fit. I can't swallow the endurance frames as so many come too upright and almost exclusively with way more gears than i need, which translates into too much spacing between. I like having small changes as much as possible with a good hill option. (36/30 is way more spinny than the 34/25 i'm used to on hills) Anyway, thank you all for the feedback, I sure wish I could go test ride bikes at the LBS, but I guess I'll have to settle for a fitting and advice of the shop owner.

w00dster

Good luck with it, hope you enjoy. I'm sure you'll get used to the position.
Maybe have a look at some Yoga classes and do more stretching? (Waiting to get flamed now, but anyway even if Yoga doesn't help cycling, its a great mental relaxation while being physically challenging in a strange way.....and it will help your cycling...)
And post some picture up when you get the bike.

asprilla

mbrune wrote:

I'm a pretty tall guy, with average arms for my frame so hopefully it's a good fit. I can't swallow the endurance frames as so many come too upright and almost exclusively with way more gears than i need, which translates into too much spacing between. I like having small changes as much as possible with a good hill option. (36/30 is way more spinny than the 34/25 i'm used to on hills) Anyway, thank you all for the feedback, I sure wish I could go test ride bikes at the LBS, but I guess I'll have to settle for a fitting and advice of the shop owner.

I deeply dislike the term 'endurance bike' as it gives the impression that we should be riding what the pros ride, and in the same fashion. This is obviously complete rubbish and any bike fitter will tell you so. I'm 176cm, 67kg and I can easily touch my own toes. I do pilates every week to improve my core and flexibility. I'm certainly fitter and more flexible than average.

However, I also recognise that I have long legs for my height (saddle centre to bottom bracket centre is 765mm) and so I need a higher cockpit than most, otherwise the saddle to bar drop is too great to comfortably do 100miles, or even 50 hard miles.

Anyway, rant over.

In terms of gearing, that's a simple change; a new cassette is £25 and the tools to change it yourself probably cost the same. If you do it yourself you can change your gearing to suit your ride. I usually have 12-25, but 11-23 on the TT and if I'm doing a hilly route I might have 12-27. Cyclocross needs a 32 on the back.

mbrune

Asprilla wrote:

I deeply dislike the term 'endurance bike' as it gives the impression that we should be riding what the pros ride, and in the same fashion. This is obviously complete rubbish and any bike fitter will tell you so. I'm 176cm, 67kg and I can easily touch my own toes. I do pilates every week to improve my core and flexibility. I'm certainly fitter and more flexible than average.
.

I do agree that the term "endurance bike" is misleading, or "sportive bike" for that matter. Also I don't intend to ride like the pros, and know that I cannot, I do want to be less of a parachute to work against however. I do in fact worry about getting a more aggressive bike for the reasons you mentioned. I've done a fast (for me) 40 with the 2.5" of drop that I'm currently running saddle to bars, and felt fine. But I do worry about the 100 milers. My current bike is an endurance frame, and I've found that I spend a lot of time in the drops, maybe that's not a problem, but I have encountered windy days where I wish I had a lower level as simply bending the heck out of my elbows is not comfortable in the least. I settled on the r3 because it is at the endurance end of racey in terms of geometry. I've seen "endurance" bikes with a lower stack and longer reach than the r3 offers. I looked at trek and am tempted as the h2 fit has longer top tubes and higher stack but just can't love them or the price (I also feel like i'm getting more frame for my money with an r3 based on the sale price). I wish I had more options around here as basically I have to try out bikes without physically trying them, this is maddening, and daunting when it comes to purchasing a bike.

Looks like you have an r3, I'm assuming you've been successful at making it fit your body type? Any advice in that regard?

Thanks for the rant, it resonates with my apprehensions on the purchase, and I get what you're saying about the gear changes I guess I'm gravitating towards a frame I know will respond and climb well.

asprilla

My baby:



I've not actually had a road bike fit in about 8 years, when I was measured up and fit for a Scott CR1. Over the years I've lost weight (nearly 20kg) and become more flexible. While the fit at the back has remained the same this bike is a touch lower at the front. I've left 1cm of steerer if I ever fancy moving it back up again. I also have a CX which is slightly higher and my commuter (Canyon Endurace) is higher still.

Remember that stack and reach are related and adjusting one impacts the other. I tend to run 100mm stems over the 110mm you usually get on a 54cm frame, but the CX has 110cm to make it a little less twitchy when its in the slippery stuff.

mbrune

Asprilla wrote:

My baby:

I've not actually had a road bike fit in about 8 years, when I was measured up and fit for a Scott CR1. Over the years I've lost weight (nearly 20kg) and become more flexible. While the fit at the back has remained the same this bike is a touch lower at the front. I've left 1cm of steerer if I ever fancy moving it back up again. I also have a CX which is slightly higher and my commuter (Canyon Endurace) is higher still.

Remember that stack and reach are related and adjusting one impacts the other. I tend to run 100mm stems over the 110mm you usually get on a 54cm frame, but the CX has 110cm to make it a little less twitchy when its in the slippery stuff.

All very interesting, thank you for the picture, it helps to visualize, (surprised you ride a 54 given your height and leg length, seems like the seat would be to the moon, but it looks good) how many cm of spacers do you have on that R3. My plan is to set it up for 40mm and if I get fitter then lower it. The r3 geometry is 13mm below my current bike in stack, and 7mm longer in reach. Shop owner, fitter, says that he could set it up about the same as mine, or more aggressive if I want, also says he can flip the stem and get me above where I am. I don't need to be any less aggressive than what I have so I figure it should work and be able to be fine tuned. Originally my bike had a flipped stem and about 0cm drop. For the last two months I've been riding with about 6-7cm of drop as I flipped the stem (it had a -16deg shim). I haven't done big distance since then, however, did a 40 with about 60% of the time in the drops to test it out and didn't have any huge complaints (hip was a little tight afterward but that's always an issue for me.)

In reference to size, I'm taller than you (192.5 cm) and my inseam makes up about 48% of my height, so slightly short torsoed as well, but I do have an extra 5cm in arm span to help make up the difference in drop. I'm impressed you ride canyon, curious as to how you set those up as well, when I look at their bikes i'm always a bit shocked at the short stack long reach. (would be a tough fit for me I think)

asprilla

That's quite a long leg length you've got. Mine is only 47.7% and its considered long.

The R3 has a reach/stack of 378/555 compared to the 375/581 of the Canyon Endurace. I've got 20mm of stack on the Canyon and 25mm on the Cervelo.

I think I'd be uncomfortable doing a century anything longer and lower than my R3.

Lewis99

Contact wheel of bloor in Toronto. They have amazing deals on Cervelo at the moment.
Im sure they will ship it to you if you just pay for the shipping

clubsport

Guys, those of you who bought 2018 R3 recently, which colour did you go for, bright or subtle??

I am wondering if bright would get annoying after a while or subtle would become dull and hard to sell if I decide to part with the bike?

rwoofer

Personally I love the navy blue (subtle) scheme. Most people comment how classy in looks in the flesh. Flouro never appeals to me, so I am biased:)