Laura Plummer and Tramadol

Matthewfalle

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Matthewfalle wrote:

DeVlaeminck wrote:

No I don't want special treatment for her, I think 3 years for smuggling £25 worth of prescription painkillers for what appears to be personal use by her "husband" is excessive whether that is for her, you, me or anyone else.

You clearly think that 3 years is a fair punishment for it, we disagree.

Of course it’s a fair punishment - it’s against the law in Egypt to bring them in in that quantity and that is the sentence that Egyptian law states must be handed down.

Personal use by her husband? She had 290 of the buggers and they are Egypt’s most abused drug. They are also illegal.

What would you have given her?

Or what would you give an Egyptian bringing a load of smack in?

You keep resorting to arguing that it's the law in Egypt, we know that, nobody is arguing differently. If the law called for stoning to death would you also say it's a "fair punishment" because "that is the sentence Egyptian law states.." etc.

My point is that I think the law, sentencing guidelines or whatever in Egypt are excessive. She had 290 pills, but if you need strong painkillers for a chronic condition you aren't taking one a day, this could credibly be a couple of months supply for one person. It's £25 worth.

If someone brought £25 of heroin into any country then they clearly aren't a drug dealer so no I wouldn't treat them as if they were. It'd achieve nothing other than costing a lot of money and ruining at least one life.

And it’s not a resort. It’s a stament of fact.

ExCyclist

Matthewfalle wrote:

Or let’s throw it another way De V - when was the last time you attended an opioid overdose? They really aren’t pretty.

The first dead one I attended on civvie ambo was a overdose in his gran’s shower. Next time I’ll let you get the body out while doing CPR and sticking it full of Narcan while his gran watches - you can explain that it’s all ok, it only £25 worth of Tramadol or whatever.

How much Narcan did you use?

Matthewfalle

bendertherobot wrote:

Matthewfalle wrote:

Or let’s throw it another way De V - when was the last time you attended an opioid overdose? They really aren’t pretty.

The first dead one I attended on civvie ambo was a overdose in his gran’s shower. Next time I’ll let you get the body out while doing CPR and sticking it full of Narcan while his gran watches - you can explain that it’s all ok, it only £25 worth of Tramadol or whatever.

Highest cause of deaths in the US, as I recall. More than guns.

Yup. Massive huge issue. Biggly issue.

RallyBiker

Matthewfalle wrote:

RallyBiker wrote:

Matthewfalle wrote:

FishFish wrote:

Matthew is right. There is no more to it than this. All the other stuff is just variability in peoples compassion.

Thank you!

See - Smithy was right, again.

One thing's for certain, she won't do it again - if she comes out alive!

FFS of course she’ll come out alive. It’s Egypt not Syria. She’ll spend the next couple of years with a bunch of other Western losers in a corner cell all moaning about how they were set up bringing gear into the country,

Overreaction levels have reached peak point.

She’s an imbecile.

I meant more like she could top herself if that prison is a hellhole, more than being waterboarded or shanked!

surrey_commuter

A quick Google search suggests that Norway has some of the nicest prisons in the world. If innocent British citizens are incapable of looking guilty of breaking foreign laws maybe we should teach them the best countries to commit these crimes so as no minimise the hand wringing at home.

Matthewfalle

Surrey Commuter wrote:

A quick Google search suggests that Norway has some of the nicest prisons in the world. If innocent British citizens are incapable of looking guilty of breaking foreign laws maybe we should teach them the best countries to commit these crimes so as no minimise the hand wringing at home.

she wasn't "incapable of looking guilty".

she was very guilty and setenced according to the sentencing guidelines available to the judge.

DeVlaeminck

cooldad wrote:

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Matthewfalle wrote:

DeVlaeminck wrote:

No I don't want special treatment for her, I think 3 years for smuggling £25 worth of prescription painkillers for what appears to be personal use by her "husband" is excessive whether that is for her, you, me or anyone else.

You clearly think that 3 years is a fair punishment for it, we disagree.

Of course it’s a fair punishment - it’s against the law in Egypt to bring them in in that quantity and that is the sentence that Egyptian law states must be handed down.

Personal use by her husband? She had 290 of the buggers and they are Egypt’s most abused drug. They are also illegal.

What would you have given her?

Or what would you give an Egyptian bringing a load of smack in?

You keep resorting to arguing that it's the law in Egypt, we know that, nobody is arguing differently. If the law called for stoning to death would you also say it's a "fair punishment" because "that is the sentence Egyptian law states.." etc.

My point is that I think the law, sentencing guidelines or whatever in Egypt are excessive. She had 290 pills, but if you need strong painkillers for a chronic condition you aren't taking one a day, this could credibly be a couple of months supply for one person. It's £25 worth.

If someone brought £25 of heroin into any country then they clearly aren't a drug dealer so no I wouldn't treat them as if they were. It'd achieve nothing other than costing a lot of money and ruining at least one life.

Couple of strawmen you've set up there.

Firstly, she wasn't sentenced to stoning. Is that even a sentence in Egypt? I don't think so.

Secondly, what is the street value in Egypt? Or here for that matter. Take a 30 day supply at standard prescription costs and it's a bit more than £25. And perhaps, taking your heroin argument, it should be on number of doses, so 390 doses of heroin, not £25 worth (although I am no expert on heroin, or Tramadol.)

No not a strawman - it's applying Matthew's logic - but if you prefer does he think the death penalty would have been "fair" seeing as that was a possible sentence and may have been the sentence in some places. The point is 'it's the law" is his definition of "fair", I disagree.

Secondly 390 doses of heroin would likely be a commercial drug dealer, surely you would differentiate between a drug dealer and someone bringing in a drug for personal/family use? I would anyway.

pblakeney

DeVlaeminck wrote:

The point is 'it's the law" is his definition of "fair", I disagree.

The point is, that is only a point of view.
One which I doubt the Egyptians give a jot about.

DeVlaeminck

Ben6899 wrote:

And it's worth more than £25!

Have you said that a couple of times now ?

That is the value reported in the press and tallies roughly with the amount reported in the article I linked to earlier which precedes this case. If you have information to the contrary I'm happy for you to share.

DeVlaeminck

PBlakeney wrote:

DeVlaeminck wrote:

The point is 'it's the law" is his definition of "fair", I disagree.

The point is, that is only a point of view.
One which I doubt the Egyptians give a jot about.

Not sure what point you are trying to make. I'm sure many Egyptians don't care a jot for my view, or yours, so what?

DeVlaeminck

Matthewfalle wrote:

Or let’s throw it another way De V - when was the last time you attended an opioid overdose? They really aren’t pretty.

The first dead one I attended on civvie ambo was a overdose in his gran’s shower. Next time I’ll let you get the body out while doing CPR and sticking it full of Narcan while his gran watches - you can explain that it’s all ok, it only £25 worth of Tramadol or whatever.

Well best guess is this woman was taking a relatively small quantity of a prescription drug for her husband's personal use.

Whilst abuse of these drugs may be nasty so is abuse of alcohol or many other things. You are losing sight of what this woman has done and blaming her for Egypt's problem with abuse of prescription drugs. The idea that you can solve these problems by locking everyone involved in any way for excessive amounts of time is nonsense, it just creates other problems.

Yes she broke the law and deserves to be punished but not punished as if she is smuggling drugs for profit because evidence suggests she wasn't.

pblakeney

DeVlaeminck wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

DeVlaeminck wrote:

The point is 'it's the law" is his definition of "fair", I disagree.

The point is, that is only a point of view.
One which I doubt the Egyptians give a jot about.

Not sure what point you are trying to make. I'm sure many Egyptians don't care a jot for my view, or yours, so what?

Why bother repeating it?
Stupid deed done, caught and punished. End of. Unless you can alter the Egyptian legal process.

Ben6899

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Ben6899 wrote:

And it's worth more than £25!

Have you said that a couple of times now ?

That is the value reported in the press and tallies roughly with the amount reported in the article I linked to earlier which precedes this case. If you have information to the contrary I'm happy for you to share.

Said it once.

In 2015, Tramadol in Egypt was selling at $3 a pill. So she was carrying $900 worth, or - by today's FX rate - £670. Egypt average household income is less than around $5000 or £3700.

https://www.economist.com/news/middle-e ... k-and-play

£25 probably refers to 3no. 100pill prescriptions at a touch over £8 each.

surrey_commuter

Matthewfalle wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

A quick Google search suggests that Norway has some of the nicest prisons in the world. If innocent British citizens are incapable of looking guilty of breaking foreign laws maybe we should teach them the best countries to commit these crimes so as no minimise the hand wringing at home.

she wasn't "incapable of looking guilty".

she was very guilty and setenced according to the sentencing guidelines available to the judge.

You may have missed my point

FishFish

Surrey Commuter wrote:

A quick Google search suggests that Norway has some of the nicest prisons in the world. If innocent British citizens are incapable of looking guilty of breaking foreign laws maybe we should teach them the best countries to commit these crimes so as no minimise the hand wringing at home.

Good point and if I was a woman I'd probably prefer a Norwegian bf to an Egypt.

I wonder if I am right in recalling that whilst on average the post Viking Nog is nice they do have some strange ones like the guy who shot 80 people in Oslo and also that interesting character who built a submarine and beheaded a journalist. I think this lady would have done well to export her tramadol there - cheaper flight too! Character building for Scandanavia.

Norway is also in EFTA rather than the EU which struck me as a reasonable thing to do.

tangled_metal

Unfortunately sovereign countries have the right to set their own policies, laws and sentencing guidelines. Having said that applying British sensibilities to the rules of a foreign country seems to be a popular British pastime.

Instead of getting hung up on what we think is acceptable deV, shouldn't you consider this from the POV of the Egyptian citizen. Hard to do I reckon but I'd bet they would be happy to sentence any foreigner importing banned drugs into their country to 3 years.

Anyone taken a look at Egyptian press / media to b see if they've got any opinions on this case? I know ppl on here like to do research and post links. Perhaps someone has bothered to see if there's an opinion local to where the crime was committed. As in those ppl affected because it's their country.

rick_chasey

Aye.

Immigrant wife caught smuggling illegal opioids.

pblakeney

Rick Chasey wrote:

Aye.

Immigrant wife caught smuggling illegal opioids.

Daily Heil would have her strung up.

Matthewfalle

Rick Chasey wrote:

Aye.

Immigrant wife caught smuggling illegal opioids.

While stealing even more husbands and jobs.

DeVlaeminck

Tangled Metal wrote:

Unfortunately sovereign countries have the right to set their own policies, laws and sentencing guidelines. Having said that applying British sensibilities to the rules of a foreign country seems to be a popular British pastime.

Instead of getting hung up on what we think is acceptable deV, shouldn't you consider this from the POV of the Egyptian citizen. Hard to do I reckon but I'd bet they would be happy to sentence any foreigner importing banned drugs into their country to 3 years.

Anyone taken a look at Egyptian press / media to b see if they've got any opinions on this case? I know ppl on here like to do research and post links. Perhaps someone has bothered to see if there's an opinion local to where the crime was committed. As in those ppl affected because it's their country.

I'm not applying British sensibilities I'm looking at it from the point of view of why do we have a justice system. Deterrence, punishment, rehab and retribution. On that basis I think it's an excessive punishment, I accept others may not.

Of course I realise countries have the power to set their own laws it doesn't mean I have to agree with them. Moreover even if I did think 3 years was justified say for deterrence - I would still feel sympathy for her as I don't believe she thought there was a victim in this crime. In simple terms I don't see the evidence that she is a bad person, only naive or impulsive or stupid or infatuated or a combination of these. I don't think these traits are deserving of a jail sentence of 3 years even if it were justified as a deterrent - which for me it isn't.

Matthewfalle

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Tangled Metal wrote:

Unfortunately sovereign countries have the right to set their own policies, laws and sentencing guidelines. Having said that applying British sensibilities to the rules of a foreign country seems to be a popular British pastime.

Instead of getting hung up on what we think is acceptable deV, shouldn't you consider this from the POV of the Egyptian citizen. Hard to do I reckon but I'd bet they would be happy to sentence any foreigner importing banned drugs into their country to 3 years.

Anyone taken a look at Egyptian press / media to b see if they've got any opinions on this case? I know ppl on here like to do research and post links. Perhaps someone has bothered to see if there's an opinion local to where the crime was committed. As in those ppl affected because it's their country.

I'm not applying British sensibilities I'm looking at it from the point of view of why do we have a justice system. Deterrence, punishment, rehab and retribution. On that basis I think it's an excessive punishment, I accept others may not.

Of course I realise countries have the power to set their own laws it doesn't mean I have to agree with them. Moreover even if I did think 3 years was justified say for deterrence - I would still feel sympathy for her as I don't believe she thought there was a victim in this crime. In simple terms I don't see the evidence that she is a bad person, only naive or impulsive or stupid or infatuated or a combination of these. I don't think these traits are deserving of a jail sentence of 3 years even if it were justified as a deterrent - which for me it isn't.

doesn't matter a jot whether she was any of the above - she is still a really rubbish drug smuggler who got caught breaking the law trying to smuggle illegal drugs and was sentenced according to the sentencing guidelines.

gsk82

If she was from the south east I'm pretty certain the uk government would have "sorted this out" several weeks ago.

Matthewfalle

gsk82 wrote:

If she was from the south east I'm pretty certain the uk government would have "sorted this out" several weeks ago.

I'd say no as she is a convicted drug smuggler who was convicted of smuggling drugs.

Are you suffering from regional "woe is me"?

surrey_commuter

Matthewfalle wrote:

gsk82 wrote:

If she was from the south east I'm pretty certain the uk government would have "sorted this out" several weeks ago.

I'd say no as she is a convicted drug smuggler who was convicted of smuggling drugs.

Are you suffering from regional "woe is me"?

o

Compounded by a serious case of myopia as he has not noticed that the member of the UK Govt who would get involved is Boris :shock:

tangled_metal

3 years sounds a good sentence for drug smuggling to me.

Sympathy? For a drug smuggler? Would you sympathise for a heroin smuggler getting caught? I wouldn't and don't for someone smuggling any dog that is illegal in the destination country. My opinion. I'm not a bleeding heart liberal I guess, at least not with drugs.

Is drug smuggling not enough to mark you out as a bad person these days? I mean it was 390 doses of tramadol a prescription drug over here that it is unlikely she obtained legally (crime in the UK perhaps = bad person) and illegal in Egypt for whatever reasons the authorities had (illegal importation = smuggling = bad person).

pblakeney

Pedigree dogs are getting fairly expensive.

Matthewfalle

And she is in no way pedigree.....

robert88

Matthewfalle wrote:

And she is in no way pedigree.....

No, this is pedigree:

Rhodri Philipps, 4th Viscount St Davids

Financial matters[edit]
Philipps has received attention since at least the early 2000s, in relation to his business and legal affairs. He was first declared bankrupt in 2002,[4] and subsequently held directorships in several companies.[5] In September 2008, having been denied bail as a flight risk, Philipps spent more than a year in prison in Nuremberg. Claims were investigated that he used more than £350,000 of company funds on promoting an opera singer, £12,000 to rent a private jet and £5,000 on a shotgun from James Purdey.[6] He was eventually given a two-year suspended prison sentence by a German court[n 1] for mismanagement of funds related to his construction company Hans Brochier, from which he transferred a seven-figure sum to a newly registered company in the UK in 2005.[4][7] In 2009 he appealed against the sentence.[8]

In September 2010, Philipps' West Sussex property, Strange Place, in Northchapel, was repossessed by Barclays Bank.[6] In March 2011, he was declared bankrupt for a second time,[9][10] and in November 2011 his wife, Viscountess St Davids, was sued for unpaid debts.[3]

In March 2012, Philipps unsuccessfully sued offshore legal advisors Corporate & Chancery Group for £110 million in the Supreme Court of Mauritius, alleging fraud and mismanagement.[11] In February 2016, he was declared bankrupt for a third time.[9][12]

Menacing communications[edit]
Following a complaint made in November 2016, Philipps was arrested in January 2017 by Metropolitan Police officers investigating online abuse against a 51-year-old woman. In March 2017, he was charged with malicious communications with racially aggravated factors, over alleged threats against Gina Miller, who was behind a successful legal challenge against the UK government's intention to give notice to leave the European Union without an act of parliament.[1][13] Among other communications, he posted "£5,000 for the first person to 'accidentally' run over this bloody troublesome first generation immigrant" and "If this is what we should expect from immigrants, send them back to their stinking jungles" on Facebook.[14] He pleaded 'not guilty' to three charges of menacing communication under section 127 of the Communications Act 2003 when he appeared at Westminster Magistrates' Court on 2 May 2017. At the May hearing, the prosecution said the crown would seek an extended sentence because of the racial aggravation factor.[15] He was found guilty of two charges at his trial on 11 July 2017, at which he defended himself. Philipps was also convicted for comments made in response to a news article about an immigrant, in which he had written: "I will open the bidding. £2,000 in cash for the first person to carve Arnold Sube into pieces. Piece of shit".[16] Philipps, who described his own comments as "satire",[14] was sentenced to 12 weeks in prison.[17] He was released on bail, pending an appeal.[18] The appeal was abandoned by Philipps on 25 August 2017 some fifteen minutes after Judge Deborah Taylor informed Southwark Crown Court that there was a risk his sentence could be increased. Philipps will now serve the remainder of his original sentence.[19]

Following an article about Sube, in September 2016, Philipps wrote: "Please will someone 'smoke' this ghastly insult to our country. Why should I pay tax to feed these monkeys. A return to Planet of the apes is not acceptable." He admitted to posting this comment but was acquitted of the charge after it was not found to be menacing.[2]

Twelve weeks for offering money to have someone killed.

Still he is 'pedigree' and that's what matters.

Matthewfalle

but he's not a convicted drug dealer in Egypt.

Case of the " social class woe is me" methinks

surrey_commuter

Matthewfalle wrote:

but he's not a convicted drug dealer in Egypt.

Case of the " social class woe is me" methinks

Come come, surely an easy legal ride is one of the privileges of being a member of the upper classes? Rather than be envious it is something to aspire to leave for your heirs.