Standing up...

Schoie81

Hi guys,

I'm after some tips for getting out of the saddle when climbing. I've been road cycling for 4 years now and live in the Peak District, so I tackle my fair share of hills, but still wouldn't really consider myself anywhere close to being an expert. I've never been one to get out of the saddle, preferring to stay sat and churn away up hills, but am keen to try it now, mainly to see if it helps my legs on climbs, but also because i find sitting tends to take its toll on my back on long climbs. I thought it'd be easy, but it seems that's not quite the case. My problem is that I start off the hill sat, and gradually drop down into a low, if not the lowest gear (because I need to be), but then when I come to get out of the saddle, I need to be in a much higher gear because stood up, I can't pedal at the same rate.

I'm struggling to get into the right gear quickly enough, and then I also have the same problem when I go to sit back down, as I then need to be back in a low gear otherwise my legs just laugh at me and give up. Am I doing something wrong? Anyone got any tips?? Or do I just need to get used to it/practice??

haydenm

No idea if this is the correct technique but maybe try standing up once you reach the end of what you can do in a gear before you change down? I tend to do a combination of that and changing gear with practice. Obviously be careful changing gear when cranking hard out of the saddle

milemuncher1

The more points of contact you maintain with the bike, the more mechanical efficiency you will have. If you sit down, you will have more contact with the bike. I find the best way to tackle climbs with corners, is to remain seated as much as possible, then go up a gear or 2, and stand in the corners, then go back to the lower gear and seated when the corner is over. If I go into lactic leg land, I also find standing up helps.

Schoie81

Thanks guys. Ha ha Oxoman - I've got a friend who is a personal trainer and has recently opened his own gym - he's been trying to get me to go to his spin classes and I've consistently refused - mainly for the reasons you state - can see me being totally out of my depth!! Ha ha.

Tackling a good old hill on my ride tonight, so I'll see how I get on (done it once before in the saddle all the way up...)

singleton

On a long climb, I generally use both techniques, the variation can be helpful.
Sitting for most of the time and keeping a higher cadence in a lower gear.
Occasionally standing up, but usually change up one or more gears before standing up as my cadence will be lower when out of the saddle.

lesfirth

Milemuncher1 wrote:

The more points of contact you maintain with the bike, the more mechanical efficiency you will have. .

If I bite my handlebars or suck my stem will I go faster? Can anyone think of any other points of contact?

milemuncher1

Singleton wrote:

On a long climb, I generally use both techniques, the variation can be helpful.
Sitting for most of the time and keeping a higher cadence in a lower gear.
Occasionally standing up, but usually change up one or more gears before standing up as my cadence will be lower when out of the saddle.

Very much the way I find works best as well.

milemuncher1

lesfirth wrote:

Milemuncher1 wrote:

The more points of contact you maintain with the bike, the more mechanical efficiency you will have. .

If I bite my handlebars or suck my stem will I go faster? Can anyone think of any other points of contact?

Ironically, if you were in a position where you were sucking the stem, or biting the bars, you would be tucked right down, so you would presumably have a very marginal aero advantage, which could make you go faster, I suppose.

burnthesheep

If climbing more than 5 minutes, combination helps.

Spin when the grade is easier than X% then stand above x%. If you can't stand that long, it's ok, spin again. Think of a hill with mixed pitches as "Over/Under" interval work.

Spin on your "unders" below what you can do then stand on your "overs" when the pitch increases.

One thing I don't understand is the "transition" to stand. They say if you're not careful you'll hit the rider behind you as you swing the bike back to stand. I feel I'd have to have someone watch me and smack me if I do it wrong or show me what this means.

imposter2.0

Schoie81 wrote:

I'm struggling to get into the right gear quickly enough, and then I also have the same problem when I go to sit back down, as I then need to be back in a low gear otherwise my legs just laugh at me and give up. Am I doing something wrong? Anyone got any tips?? Or do I just need to get used to it/practice??

Knock it down one or two gears before you get out of the saddle, and then knock it back up one or two gears before you sit down again. Like any other aerobic activity, the more you ride out of the saddle, the longer you will be able to tolerate it.

ZMC888

I use standing as a turbo boost. If there's a steeper section then I'll stand, say average gradient is 8% but a short section of 12%. Or if the top of the hill is in sight I'll drop it down a cog or two and stand up.

Sometimes I'm more in the mood for standing up, seems to depend on fatigue or lack of it.

lincolndave

You might be better off practicing standing/sitting/standing changing gears etc on lesser inclines, at the least you are not going to go into the red and you will have a more control over the bike.

Schoie81

Thanks for the advice guys. This is generally what I'm aiming for - sitting gets me up most hills, but the long, steeper ones I struggle a bit, so just thought getting out of the saddle every now and again might help my legs and give my a***/back a bit of a rest... As it was, I tackled a 1.3mile climb with an average of 10% gradient last night, got out of the saddle once but it didn't last long as I was already struggling a bit!

I think the advice to try getting out of the saddle on lower gradients until I'm more used to doing it is a good idea - I'll give that a go!! Going to pass on the biting/sucking though, save that kind of stuff for non-cycling activities... ;-)

Joshgav

Sitting is generally more efficient than standing. If you watch Froome he rarely stands on a climb even when he's putting an attack in. However, standing can be used to put some extra power down, to either attack a steep section or to get back up to speed if you have dropped off a bit or it can be used for comfort to stretch the legs and give the bum a rest on long climbs.

singleton

Froome sits a lot, Contador stands a lot more.
The pros all vary their styles and preferences.

imposter2.0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqP1Nzmniao

milemuncher1

Sitting is more efficient ( more of your power is transmitted) due to having the extra points of contact, added by the saddle. Your Power will usually be higher when stood ( on account of the better bio mechanical alignment, allowing you to make more torque, relative to sitting down), although your Cadence will almost certainly be Lower, most riders find that a standing position ( particularly in corners ) allow them to ascend more quickly than if seated. For me personally, I find that sitting for as long as possible, in a gear that I can maintain a steady Cadence, then shifting up a gear, and standing, in the corners, then returning to seated, and a lower gear for the next straight but, makes for a more comfortable ride. I find if you plan ahead and get into the requisite gear, in time for the applicable section, the transition between seated and standing results in a smoother / more consistent velocity. When stood up, try to make sure your hips are pushed forward, your back is as straight as possible, and your shoulders are back and down, this will help with ventilation, and help increase the period before you hit your lactate threshold, when your leg muscles get all full of lactate, due to you going into anaerobic respiration. There other technical complications to consider ( what your VO2 max is etc.) but it's all relative, and personal to you. Make sure you don't push the bike backwards as you change positions either, try to move your body into position without the bike moving position too much. Practice makes perfect.

cld531c

Milemuncher1 wrote:

Sitting is more efficient ( more of your power is transmitted) due to having the extra points of contact, added by the saddle. Your Power will usually be higher when stood ( on account of the better bio mechanical alignment, allowing you to make more torque, relative to sitting down), although your Cadence will almost certainly be Lower, most riders find that a standing position ( particularly in corners ) allow them to ascend more quickly than if seated. For me personally, I find that sitting for as long as possible, in a gear that I can maintain a steady Cadence, then shifting up a gear, and standing, in the corners, then returning to seated, and a lower gear for the next straight but, makes for a more comfortable ride. I find if you plan ahead and get into the requisite gear, in time for the applicable section, the transition between seated and standing results in a smoother / more consistent velocity. When stood up, try to make sure your hips are pushed forward, your back is as straight as possible, and your shoulders are back and down, this will help with ventilation, and help increase the period before you hit your lactate threshold, when your leg muscles get all full of lactate, due to you going into anaerobic respiration. There other technical complications to consider ( what your VO2 max is etc.) but it's all relative, and personal to you. Make sure you don't push the bike backwards as you change positions either, try to move your body into position without the bike moving position too much. Practice makes perfect.

How low do you manage to get your cadence when standing MM if it maxes around 45??

Brakeless

cld531c wrote:

Milemuncher1 wrote:

Sitting is more efficient ( more of your power is transmitted) due to having the extra points of contact, added by the saddle. Your Power will usually be higher when stood ( on account of the better bio mechanical alignment, allowing you to make more torque, relative to sitting down), although your Cadence will almost certainly be Lower, most riders find that a standing position ( particularly in corners ) allow them to ascend more quickly than if seated. For me personally, I find that sitting for as long as possible, in a gear that I can maintain a steady Cadence, then shifting up a gear, and standing, in the corners, then returning to seated, and a lower gear for the next straight but, makes for a more comfortable ride. I find if you plan ahead and get into the requisite gear, in time for the applicable section, the transition between seated and standing results in a smoother / more consistent velocity. When stood up, try to make sure your hips are pushed forward, your back is as straight as possible, and your shoulders are back and down, this will help with ventilation, and help increase the period before you hit your lactate threshold, when your leg muscles get all full of lactate, due to you going into anaerobic respiration. There other technical complications to consider ( what your VO2 max is etc.) but it's all relative, and personal to you. Make sure you don't push the bike backwards as you change positions either, try to move your body into position without the bike moving position too much. Practice makes perfect.

How low do you manage to get your cadence when standing MM if it maxes around 45??

On his Garmin recording he stands up. On his phone recording he sits down.

kingstongraham

Schoie81 wrote:

Thanks for the advice guys. This is generally what I'm aiming for - sitting gets me up most hills, but the long, steeper ones I struggle a bit, so just thought getting out of the saddle every now and again might help my legs and give my a***/back a bit of a rest... As it was, I tackled a 1.3mile climb with an average of 10% gradient last night, got out of the saddle once but it didn't last long as I was already struggling a bit!

What gearing do you have?

cld531c

Brakeless wrote:

cld531c wrote:

Milemuncher1 wrote:

Sitting is more efficient ( more of your power is transmitted) due to having the extra points of contact, added by the saddle. Your Power will usually be higher when stood ( on account of the better bio mechanical alignment, allowing you to make more torque, relative to sitting down), although your Cadence will almost certainly be Lower, most riders find that a standing position ( particularly in corners ) allow them to ascend more quickly than if seated. For me personally, I find that sitting for as long as possible, in a gear that I can maintain a steady Cadence, then shifting up a gear, and standing, in the corners, then returning to seated, and a lower gear for the next straight but, makes for a more comfortable ride. I find if you plan ahead and get into the requisite gear, in time for the applicable section, the transition between seated and standing results in a smoother / more consistent velocity. When stood up, try to make sure your hips are pushed forward, your back is as straight as possible, and your shoulders are back and down, this will help with ventilation, and help increase the period before you hit your lactate threshold, when your leg muscles get all full of lactate, due to you going into anaerobic respiration. There other technical complications to consider ( what your VO2 max is etc.) but it's all relative, and personal to you. Make sure you don't push the bike backwards as you change positions either, try to move your body into position without the bike moving position too much. Practice makes perfect.

How low do you manage to get your cadence when standing MM if it maxes around 45??

On his Garmin recording he stands up. On his phone recording he sits down.

What about the second Garmin? One cheek up and one down?

surrey_commuter

When about to change down I would change up and stand up. Where I lacked confidence was sitting back down as wanted to change gear after sitting down and could lose momentum/power. I got round this by practising near the top or powering up short steep bumps.

N0bodyOfTheGoat

Yesterday, I did a ride including Harvesting Lane, the steepest road ascent up Butser Hill. I don't have a power meter and I was using Strava Live Segments to show my progress through "The Meon Quad" 19.4 mile segment, so my efforts up each of the four cat4 climbs was based purely on feel.

For a change, I didn't stand up during the ascent, but as per normal the top ~0.6 miles was a hard slog in my lowest gear (34/32). At the time, I didn't come away thinking I had come anywhere close to my best time and I took it as a given that the longest cat4 segment from the start of Oxenbourne Lane would be bad because the flat section was full of puddles often stretching across the whole lane from rain earlier in the day.

So to find I did new PBs for the ascent proper (up to +7 seconds) and only missed out on the Oxenbourne to the top segment by a few seconds was a real surprise!
https://www.strava.com/activities/11699 ... /4194/4687

I think staying seated up longer climbs is more efficient, providing you have the gearing and energy to keep your cadence smooth and ideally 80+rpm (to reduce metabolite buildup in the legs, which takes on less significance if your ride finishes at the top of the climb). Standing up will give you higher power peaks, but for most of us that will be at the cost of a smooth and fairly constant cadence, with big virtual dead spots between each crank down-stroke.

dannbodge

NitrousOxide wrote:

Yesterday, I did a ride including Harvesting Lane, the steepest road ascent up Butser Hill. I don't have a power meter and I was using Strava Live Segments to show my progress through "The Meon Quad" 19.4 mile segment, so my efforts up each of the four cat4 climbs was based purely on feel.

Nothing more to add apart from I love Harvesting Lane. The steepest part I find I have to alternate between sitting down and standing up as I find it more comfortable and easier to get my speed back up..

Ps I'm faster up harvesting than you by 5 seconds 8) (I'm not bragging, just some friendly banter).

Schoie81

KingstonGraham wrote:

Schoie81 wrote:

Thanks for the advice guys. This is generally what I'm aiming for - sitting gets me up most hills, but the long, steeper ones I struggle a bit, so just thought getting out of the saddle every now and again might help my legs and give my a***/back a bit of a rest... As it was, I tackled a 1.3mile climb with an average of 10% gradient last night, got out of the saddle once but it didn't last long as I was already struggling a bit!

What gearing do you have?

50/34 at the front and 8 speed 11-28 on the back.

Schoie81

Surrey commuter - I think that's what I will do - practice standing by doing it on short, steep climbs where I can stand up for the whole climb - then when I'm a bit more used to it, I can start mixing between the two on longer climbs - see how that goes!

kingstongraham

Schoie81 wrote:

My problem is that I start off the hill sat, and gradually drop down into a low, if not the lowest gear

Reading this, it sounds like you are working too hard at the start, then changing down as you get worn out. Have you tried changing down earlier (before you "need" to)? If the gradient is consistent, I'd start off in a gear that will be comfortable for the whole climb.

34x28 should be low enough to stay seated for most long climbs in the UK if you prefer this.

Schoie81

KG - Maybe the "gradually" in my post was misleading... if I'm talking a hill, I would tend to drop down to the small chain ring, and probably somewhere around the middle of the cassette just before or as I start the climb, so it's not quite as 'gradual' as I made it sound. I'd then drop down the last few gears if I need to as I carry on up.

I have in fact got up all but two climbs I've attempted without needing to stand (those two I did get up, but had to stop for a minute or two for a breather - so did them in two sections). The desire to stand is just really to try something different just to help my legs a bit when I'm on a long climb and they start to tire, and also just for a different position for my rear end and my back.

I think a lot of my issues can be put down to me putting in too much effort early on, which I then can't sustain. I do tend to go all out, all the time, and then slow as I get tired, which I realise probably isn't the best way of doing things. Climbing I do find a lot easier when I'm with my friend as he cycles a little slower than me so if I stick with him, I do find it easier, although it takes longer. When I'm on my own I have to really concentrate on going steady at the start of the climb so I've enough left to get to the top - but I struggle with that, and I soon find I've speeded up again... It does seem easier to go quicker (until I've got nothing left and can't go on) - keeping more momentum up maybe??- I don't know whether that's true, or just in my mind...

davidof

burnthesheep wrote:

One thing I don't understand is the "transition" to stand. They say if you're not careful you'll hit the rider behind you as you swing the bike back to stand.

I have a friend who does that, he's a runner not a cyclist and I have to be careful not too follow closely on the climbs. To avoid it you should accelerate as you stand up.

Standing up - for any long distance it is hard. Like has been posted above I only tend to do it when I reach the limit in my current gear and want to overcome a short obstacle - inside of a bend or a ramp. When it goes above 20% I probably only have about 30 seconds standing before I fall off my bike!

As with anything like that, interval training, hill repeats out of the saddle, are the best training. Find a hill around 8-10% that takes a minute or so to climb and do it out of the saddle as far as you can. Rinse and repeat.

milemuncher1

NitrousOxide wrote:

Yesterday, I did a ride including Harvesting Lane, the steepest road ascent up Butser Hill. I don't have a power meter and I was using Strava Live Segments to show my progress through "The Meon Quad" 19.4 mile segment, so my efforts up each of the four cat4 climbs was based purely on feel.

For a change, I didn't stand up during the ascent, but as per normal the top ~0.6 miles was a hard slog in my lowest gear (34/32). At the time, I didn't come away thinking I had come anywhere close to my best time and I took it as a given that the longest cat4 segment from the start of Oxenbourne Lane would be bad because the flat section was full of puddles often stretching across the whole lane from rain earlier in the day.

So to find I did new PBs for the ascent proper (up to +7 seconds) and only missed out on the Oxenbourne to the top segment by a few seconds was a real surprise!
https://www.strava.com/activities/11699 ... /4194/4687

I think staying seated up longer climbs is more efficient, providing you have the gearing and energy to keep your cadence smooth and ideally 80+rpm (to reduce metabolite buildup in the legs, which takes on less significance if your ride finishes at the top of the climb). Standing up will give you higher power peaks, but for most of us that will be at the cost of a smooth and fairly constant cadence, with big virtual dead spots between each crank down-stroke.

You've nicely proved most of the theory to yourself there.

thegreatdivide

Train yourself to ride up hills out of the saddle by riding up hills out of the saddle. It’s that simple. The more you do it the better you’ll get. Guys like Contador do 20 min out of the saddle intervals on climbs. I know none of us are Pros but it’s worth training like that. Ok maybe not 20 mins at a time…

Also – don’t start your climb (seated or standing) in a gear that you’ll then drop down from. Start in a lower gear and shift up. It might sound madness but that’s how you beat your mates. They’ll all be giving it full guns on the lower slopes before blowing up and shifting down. Start on the low gears, conserve your energy then gear up and drop them.

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