Fixie Rider charged with manslaughter after collision with pedestrian.

veronese68

Average traffic speed in London is 7.8mph, that's a particularly nasty bit so it will be even lower there. Traffic would not hit 25mph between 7am and midnight.

Ben6899

kleinstroker wrote:

We should not be put in a situation where you or any other person gets to decide what is a safe speed, as the GovT have already done that by making it a 30mph zone.

The 30mph is a limit. It doesn't mean if you cause an accident while travelling at 29mph, that you're automatically deemed to be travelling at a safe speed and exempt from liability on those grounds.

If you ride through that bit of London at 20mph, then I'll respectfully suggest you ought to slow down a bit.

N0bodyOfTheGoat

The speed limit on the stretch of road should reflect the hazards on the road, if 20+mph is deemed too fast, a lower official speed limit should be in place like those we often have around schools these days.

kleinstroker

TheBigBean wrote:

Ben6899 wrote:

If the lights are green and cars are moving at 25mph, then no one is going to step into the road and dance among the traffic.

The judge did confirm that he wasn't traffic.

Separately, I agree, 18 mph on that stretch of Old St at lunch time is a bit quick. The pavements are very narrow and there are people everywhere.

It is a bit quick, & yes you really would have to have your wits about you. But lets not get pushed into being told we are riding aggressively & or recklessly if we are well within the speed limit, as I fear this is what could happen.

Also to say that no one will step into traffic when it's moving at 25mph is clearly wrong as that is what Miss Briggs actually did. The lights were green & she misjudged the speed of traffic in the opposite lane, so was stuck in no-mans land between lanes when the accident happened

kleinstroker

Ben6899 wrote:

kleinstroker wrote:

We should not be put in a situation where you or any other person gets to decide what is a safe speed, as the GovT have already done that by making it a 30mph zone.

The 30mph is a limit. It doesn't mean if you cause an accident while travelling at 29mph, that you're automatically deemed to be travelling at a safe speed and exempt from liability on those grounds.

If you ride through that bit of London at 20mph, then I'll respectfully suggest you ought to slow down a bit.

I don't ride at that speed but that is irrelevant, the ONLY person who gets to judge that is the person riding at the time in that situation, not you, nor I nor the judge

Ben6899

kleinstroker wrote:

Also to say that no one will step into traffic when it's moving at 25mph is clearly wrong as that is what Miss Briggs actually did. The lights were green & she misjudged the speed of traffic in the opposite lane, so was stuck in no-mans land between lanes when the accident happened

Was traffic moving at 25mph? Or was it just moving? Lunchtime on Old Street, near the Charlotte Road junction. 25mph?

kleinstroker

NitrousOxide wrote:

The speed limit on the stretch of road should reflect the hazards on the road, if 20+mph is deemed too fast, a lower official speed limit should be in place like those we often have around schools these days.

I would love all of central London to be a 20mph zone! That would be great, & yes I would expect cyclist to obey that as well

Ben6899

kleinstroker wrote:

I don't ride at that speed but that is irrelevant, the ONLY person who gets to judge that is the person riding at the time in that situation, not you, nor I nor the judge

Except that's not true, is it?

EDITED to be more polite.

kleinstroker

Ben6899 wrote:

kleinstroker wrote:

Also to say that no one will step into traffic when it's moving at 25mph is clearly wrong as that is what Miss Briggs actually did. The lights were green & she misjudged the speed of traffic in the opposite lane, so was stuck in no-mans land between lanes when the accident happened

Was traffic moving at 25mph? Or was it just moving? Lunchtime on Old Street, near the Charlotte Road junction. 25mph?

AS I said without benefit of video evidence I do not know, none of us do, but I work on that street, and at all times of the day traffic moves as fast as it can. Commercial drivers especially are always in a hurry

Ben6899

kleinstroker wrote:

Ben6899 wrote:

kleinstroker wrote:

Also to say that no one will step into traffic when it's moving at 25mph is clearly wrong as that is what Miss Briggs actually did. The lights were green & she misjudged the speed of traffic in the opposite lane, so was stuck in no-mans land between lanes when the accident happened

Was traffic moving at 25mph? Or was it just moving? Lunchtime on Old Street, near the Charlotte Road junction. 25mph?

AS I said without benefit of video evidence I do not know, none of us do, but I work on that street, and at all times of the day traffic moves as fast as it can. Commercial drivers especially are always in a hurry

kleinstroker

Ben6899 wrote:

kleinstroker wrote:

I don't ride at that speed but that is irrelevant, the ONLY person who gets to judge that is the person riding at the time in that situation, not you, nor I nor the judge

Except that's not true, is it?

EDITED to be more polite.

How is that BS, if you are within the speed limit it is the road user who is expected to assess current safe speed & not somebody else.

Ben6899

kleinstroker wrote:

Ben6899 wrote:

kleinstroker wrote:

I don't ride at that speed but that is irrelevant, the ONLY person who gets to judge that is the person riding at the time in that situation, not you, nor I nor the judge

Except that's not true, is it?

EDITED to be more polite.

How is that BS, if you are within the speed limit it is the road user who is expected to assess current safe speed & not somebody else.

Because you may have poor judgment (see the Alliston case) and then you'll likely be called out on it.

veronese68

kleinstroker wrote:

I don't ride at that speed but that is irrelevant, the ONLY person who gets to judge that is the person riding at the time in that situation, not you, nor I nor the judge

I think his judgement has been proven to be more than questionable in all other matters relating to this case. As a result it's a fair assumption to say his judgement with respect to his riding would also be flawed. But without seeing the CCTV we can't be sure.

N0bodyOfTheGoat

Did I imagine reading that the victim walked out into the road, with a bus temporarily blocking the cyclist's view of the victim until she she was playing Frogger in nomansland?

TheBigBean

Is it even a 30 mph road? Most are 20 mph.

kingstongraham

kleinstroker wrote:

That is a main road, of course it is safe to cycle at 18mph. I cycle down that road almost every day, & I can tell you for sure if the lights are green cars, vans, motorbikes are all doing 25mph easily.

It is ridiculous to claim cyclists should not be cycling at a reasonable speed on a main road

It depends. If you are in traffic that is also moving at 18mph, then it is reasonable to assume that there won't be a pedestrian walking out into your path.

If, in your experience, there is a likelihood of a pedestrian walking out into the road that you won't have enough time to see and avoid if doing 18mph, then you shouldn't. In rush hour London, that is quite often.

kleinstroker

If I am travelling at those kinds of speeds I wouldn't be up against the kerb or besides a row of parked cars, I would be in amongst the cars in centre of the lane more often than not, as I've found it to be the safest place, making sure all and sundry can see you.
As far as we can tell Alliston was not hogging the left side either he was in the middle of the lane approaching the green traffic lights

niblue

kleinstroker wrote:

On a bike you constantly change your speed to suit the conditions, I don't always ride with a computer but I would imagine hitting 18mph through central London whilst commuting is not very difficult

Even when I'm a Boris bike I record the rides 'cause I always have a GPS watch on - and even on those I hit 18mph at times on the flat. There are certainly times and places where I wouldn't want to ride that fast in London traffic though, for my own safety as well as others.

pblakeney

TheBigBean wrote:

The judge did confirm that he wasn't traffic.

Of all the back and forth waffle on this thread, this one bothers me.
AKAIK cyclists are to be considered as traffic, act as if traffic, and be treated as traffic.
I realise that there are exceptions (muppets) but surely that is the sensible status?
That judge's statement could be a precedent to get us off the road.

hopkinb

PBlakeney wrote:

TheBigBean wrote:

The judge did confirm that he wasn't traffic.

Of all the back and forth waffle on this thread, this one bothers me.
AKAIK cyclists are to be considered as traffic, act as if traffic, and be treated as traffic.
I realise that there are exceptions (muppets) but surely that is the sensible status?
That judge's statement could be a precedent to get us off the road.

I had a "helpful" motorcyclist blare his horn at me from about 2 metres range the other day for being traffic. I was riding at 45 kph in primary in the inside of 2 lanes. When I told him he was a fcuking @rsehole, he said it was for my own good, and that I should be by the kerb, otherwise I was not riding safely. I asked him whether he rode in the gutter at that speed or somewhere he could be seen more easily, he said cyclists should just ride in the gutter, out of everyone's way, for their own safety. I told him he was an ignorant cnut. He said he was just trying to educate me. What do you do about that? :roll:

timothyw

Try to educate him that he's a cunt? Sounds like you already had that covered.

kingstongraham

TheBigBean wrote:

The judge did confirm that he wasn't traffic.

Where's that bit in the judgment?

jamesco

kleinstroker wrote:

So you're actually saying 18mph is too fast on a bicycle but assuming it's a 30mph zone, it's ok for taxis, cars, vans & motorbikes to go even faster?

kleinstroker wrote:

That is a main road, the speed limit is 30mph.

It's a 20mph zone, like almost all of Islington. Sensibly. There are literally dozens of speed signs along that short stretch of Old St., every single one showing '20'.

Here's what the intersection looks like right now - note the cyclist going between two vans, the pedestrian standing in the road looking the wrong way, the bus, the lorry with a skip ... 18mph is madness.

kingstongraham

hopkinb wrote:

What do you do about that? :roll:

Thank them for their concern, then continue riding in the safest place.

And tell them they shouldn't go in the advanced stop box they probably stopped in a bit later.

hopkinb

KingstonGraham wrote:

hopkinb wrote:

What do you do about that? :roll:

Thank them for their concern, then continue riding in the safest place.

And tell them they shouldn't go in the advanced stop box they probably stopped in a bit later.

We were arguing in the advanced stop box. Of course. I forgot to bring that into the conversation as I'd just sh@t myself after being blared at from close range.

cld531c

jamesco wrote:

kleinstroker wrote:

So you're actually saying 18mph is too fast on a bicycle but assuming it's a 30mph zone, it's ok for taxis, cars, vans & motorbikes to go even faster?

kleinstroker wrote:

That is a main road, the speed limit is 30mph.

It's a 20mph zone, like almost all of Islington. Sensibly. There are literally dozens of speed signs along that short stretch of Old St., every single one showing '20'.

Here's what the intersection looks like right now - note the cyclist going between two vans, the pedestrian standing in the road looking the wrong way, the bus, the lorry with a skip ... 18mph is madness.

Ate least there are two sensible pedestrians waiting at the crossing!

kleinstroker

jamesco wrote:

kleinstroker wrote:

So you're actually saying 18mph is too fast on a bicycle but assuming it's a 30mph zone, it's ok for taxis, cars, vans & motorbikes to go even faster?

kleinstroker wrote:

That is a main road, the speed limit is 30mph.

It's a 20mph zone, like almost all of Islington. Sensibly. There are literally dozens of speed signs along that short stretch of Old St., every single one showing '20'.

Here's what the intersection looks like right now - note the cyclist going between two vans, the pedestrian standing in the road looking the wrong way, the bus, the lorry with a skip ... 18mph is madness.

Er no it isn't. There isn't a single 20mph sign anywhere on Old St. I ride it every day, all of the side streets are 20mph and rightly so, but not Old St. Just checked on google maps & I can't see a single one either.

Can you point out where they are?

fat daddy

jamesco wrote:

the pedestrian standing in the road looking the wrong way,

he isnt looking the wrong way .. you need to look "both" directions when crossing a road .... .or should he only look right until he crosses the white line ? :?

N0bodyOfTheGoat

fat daddy wrote:

jamesco wrote:

the pedestrian standing in the road looking the wrong way,

he isnt looking the wrong way .. you need to look "both" directions when crossing a road .... .or should he only look right until he crosses the white line ? :?

He's trying to judge if the cyclist to his left has two functional brakes. :twisted:

TheBigBean

KingstonGraham wrote:

TheBigBean wrote:

The judge did confirm that he wasn't traffic.

Where's that bit in the judgment?

My comment wasn't meant to be interpreted literally. Clearly, he is traffic, but the judge's comments contain a few cycling missteps.

But it was you, Charlie Alliston, who caused the accident by riding a bicycle in a condition that meant you could not stop in a safe distance and by trying to force your way through the gap between a parked lorry and a woman helplessly stranded between you and moving traffic in the opposite lane.