Overtraining?

w00dster

Hi All,
Just thought I'd ask the question to see what other people think.
I'll put up my normal weekly training profile to see if you guys think I may be overtraining. The reason for asking is that since last Tuesday I've struggled with a couple of my training sessions and have a general feeling of being pooped. Also legs are pretty feeling heavy, normal walking about feels like I'm walking up stairs and walking up stairs is tough!
Background - I'm 44, been riding seriously (road) for about 4 years, prior to that I was riding MTB but as a support to other training. I was an amateur rugby league player until age 36, neck injury caused me to stop playing, I continued training (weights and cardio) until aged 40 when the neck / back injury got to the point where powerlifting had to stop. In terms of general fitness, I've always trained and been healthy. I race once a week as a Cat 3 and ride with a club once a week. FTP is measured at 285, but this has been hard to train to so reduced to 260 just over a week ago, now I'm struggling to train to an FTP of 260. The below equates to approx. 7.5 hrs of riding / training (including the 1 hour race) (Sleep wise - in bed at 2230 and up at 0530)
My training looks like:-
Sunday - 70 mile club ride. Effort - 6 out of 10. Or solo 45/50 mile ride which would be an 8 out of 10 effort.
Example of last Sunday's solo ride - https://www.strava.com/activities/998409914
Monday - Indoor interval training with the intention of increasing my threshold https://www.strava.com/activities/987644869
Tuesday - similar to Monday, this is where I noticed I was struggling - https://www.strava.com/activities/989980935
Wednesday - Rest day.
Thursday - Race (Crit, 1 hour race)
Friday - Gentle recovery ride - https://www.strava.com/activities/995720234
Saturday - Rest day.
Sunday - Repeat of the above (different ride but similar effort/distance)

I've been doing this block of training since mid March. I took the first week of March away from the bike as a rest period with the intention of hitting it hard on my return ready for the season to start towards the end of April.
Diet wise, I'm pretty good. 66/67 kgs, which I'm not "allowed" to go under. The wife is used to me being 95kgs - she struggles with how I look at 67kgs! I don't really drink very much, only the odd beer or glass of wine, generally on a Friday evening. Dinners are good, lots of fresh veg, fish, pasta etc.
Since last Tuesday I have felt that I've really struggled with training. Sunday's training ride the last 10 miles was a lot tougher than normal, I had to stop for a coffee and fill up with water. Solo ride's of about 50 miles I'd normally ride straight through. It felt like a headwind home - but that may have been an indication I was struggling?

So two questions, does it look like I'm overtraining? And secondly would there be a better way to structure the week?

To view the athlete's lab links it works better on the desktop version of strava not the mobile version.

Be good to hear peoples advice.

fenix

Simple answer is that if you feel like you're struggling - then yes - you do need a rest. Have a very very easy week and see how you feel the next week. I believe its aabout 2 weeks with no training before you start to lose fitness so having one week off won't kill you and will likely recharge your batteries.

Why would you do two hard turbo sessions next to each other in the week? That isn't something I'd do anyway. Turbo can be a lot worse than road rides as you can go that much deeper.

w00dster

Thanks Fenix.
I should have said - I work in London Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday. So in the winter / early Spring it was always Monday indoor training, Tuesday rest day, Wednesday indoor training - but with Thursday being race day I have switched it so I have Wednesday as a rest day).
I leave for work at 0630 and get home at 2000 hrs, its easier from a personal point of view to train in London rather than go home and then go a ride (wife, kids, dog, my missus is good at finding jobs for me to do!)

timothyw

You're considerably quicker than me so I almost hesitate to issue advice...

With that said, this is the internet so you can read all manner of poor advice on it ;-)

That Sunday-Tuesday block is where the problem is. You can't smash yourself three days in a row and not expect to suffer.

Given your time constraints, the first step might simply be a bit of discipline on your Sunday ride - make it a dedicated base day. Ride for a few hours, socialise on the club run, if you're on your own enjoy the scenery.

If you do go hard on Sunday, then make Monday another recovery day.

Was it deliberate that you were riding at a lower cadence on Tuesday than Monday? That might have made it feel all the more hard work.

Oh, one other thing to point out, I was riding on Sunday not that far from you, and the wind was most definitely coming from the South with some vigour, so it wasn't just your mind playing tricks.

I don't know what races are available in your area/cat, but might be worth looking at Saturday races instead so that you can switch back to a tuesday rest day?

w00dster

Hi Timothy,
The cadence difference wasn't intentional - its how the bikes / power meter / computer work. On Tuesday I wanted to be at aprox 90 rpm, but I couldn't maintain it with that power, in an attempt to keep the power at the required levels the cadence dropped. I'm generally around the 92 to 95 rpm range. (On a good day when I find the indoor training easy the cadence goes up considerably, the computer / power meter set a power, eg. 105%ftp at 90 rpm, on a good day I'll end up finding this too easy and pedalling at 100 rpm - the bikes are calibrated every session so pretty sure they are fairly accurate)
I do think the Sunday to Tuesday block is an issue. Unfortunately racing on a Saturday isn't really an option, kids day. And Sunday's I have to be home and showered ready for family by 1pm. The chilling Sunday ride might be something to think about.

rick_chasey

I thought the most obvious symptoms of overtraining were off the bike.

Constant higher heart rate, illness, mood swings, bad sleeping etc etc.

That load should be do-able, but it could equally be not doable if you have a stressful job/can't rest as much as others can for whatever reason.

I'd focus on that rather than being brick slow on the bike, for now. I know I go through patches where i'm slower or faster - could be any number of factors.

Alex99

w00dster wrote:

Hi All,
Just thought I'd ask the question to see what other people think.
I'll put up my normal weekly training profile to see if you guys think I may be overtraining. The reason for asking is that since last Tuesday I've struggled with a couple of my training sessions and have a general feeling of being pooped. Also legs are pretty feeling heavy, normal walking about feels like I'm walking up stairs and walking up stairs is tough!
Background - I'm 44, been riding seriously (road) for about 4 years, prior to that I was riding MTB but as a support to other training. I was an amateur rugby league player until age 36, neck injury caused me to stop playing, I continued training (weights and cardio) until aged 40 when the neck / back injury got to the point where powerlifting had to stop. In terms of general fitness, I've always trained and been healthy. I race once a week as a Cat 3 and ride with a club once a week. FTP is measured at 285, but this has been hard to train to so reduced to 260 just over a week ago, now I'm struggling to train to an FTP of 260. The below equates to approx. 7.5 hrs of riding / training (including the 1 hour race) (Sleep wise - in bed at 2230 and up at 0530)
My training looks like:-
Sunday - 70 mile club ride. Effort - 6 out of 10. Or solo 45/50 mile ride which would be an 8 out of 10 effort.
Example of last Sunday's solo ride - https://www.strava.com/activities/998409914
Monday - Indoor interval training with the intention of increasing my threshold https://www.strava.com/activities/987644869
Tuesday - similar to Monday, this is where I noticed I was struggling - https://www.strava.com/activities/989980935
Wednesday - Rest day.
Thursday - Race (Crit, 1 hour race)
Friday - Gentle recovery ride - https://www.strava.com/activities/995720234
Saturday - Rest day.
Sunday - Repeat of the above (different ride but similar effort/distance)

I've been doing this block of training since mid March. I took the first week of March away from the bike as a rest period with the intention of hitting it hard on my return ready for the season to start towards the end of April.
Diet wise, I'm pretty good. 66/67 kgs, which I'm not "allowed" to go under. The wife is used to me being 95kgs - she struggles with how I look at 67kgs! I don't really drink very much, only the odd beer or glass of wine, generally on a Friday evening. Dinners are good, lots of fresh veg, fish, pasta etc.
Since last Tuesday I have felt that I've really struggled with training. Sunday's training ride the last 10 miles was a lot tougher than normal, I had to stop for a coffee and fill up with water. Solo ride's of about 50 miles I'd normally ride straight through. It felt like a headwind home - but that may have been an indication I was struggling?

So two questions, does it look like I'm overtraining? And secondly would there be a better way to structure the week?

To view the athlete's lab links it works better on the desktop version of strava not the mobile version.

Be good to hear peoples advice.

I'm a little younger than you. If I do 8/10 RPE 50-60 miles on Sunday, there is no way I'm doing quality work on Monday. Take a break, change it up. Your regular race is a criterium. No sprint training in your schedule?

w00dster

Hi Alex,
Thanks for the response. No training specifically for a sprint - I probably incorrectly assumed that HIIT training would have some benefit to crit sprint training? I have no sprint really and very willing to take advice on a more sprint focused session.
Would you think better to take it easy on Sunday, so long slow ride, keep Monday and Tuesday in door sessions?
A possibility would be to swap Saturday and Sunday sessions, make Sunday a rest day. Would need line manager (wife) approval though.

imposter2.0

You're not over-training, but your schedule is bonkers. 70 miles on Sunday, followed by HIIT on the next two days consecutively is a bit silly. Drop the Monday session, or replace with a tempo (or even easy) ride. I never used to ride more than two hard sessions a week - and if I was racing in the week, then I used the race as one of my hard sessions. Racing is training too.

joe2008

Imposter wrote:

You're not over-training, but your schedule is bonkers. 70 miles on Sunday, followed by HIIT on the next two days consecutively is a bit silly. Drop the Monday session, or replace with a tempo (or even easy) ride. I never used to ride more than two hard sessions a week - and if I was racing in the week, then I used the race as one of my hard sessions. Racing is training too.

Absolutely. Ride your crit, do one HIIT session, one long steady ride, then any other riding at a recovery pace.

Alex99

w00dster wrote:

Hi Alex,
Thanks for the response. No training specifically for a sprint - I probably incorrectly assumed that HIIT training would have some benefit to crit sprint training? I have no sprint really and very willing to take advice on a more sprint focused session.
Would you think better to take it easy on Sunday, so long slow ride, keep Monday and Tuesday in door sessions?
A possibility would be to swap Saturday and Sunday sessions, make Sunday a rest day. Would need line manager (wife) approval though.

Imposter and Joe's suggestions sound about right to me.

Regarding whether your HIIT sessions improve your sprint, they might. But is it the best session? It might depend on whether you reach your real peak power on the first interval. I don't get anywhere near my sprint power on an indoor trainer, but maybe you do. It's specificity, or lack of. To me a HIIT session, isn't sprinting.

BTW, you do have a sprint (everyone does), but it might not be what you want it to be.

Vslowpace

Drop Monday and your recovery ride is not a recovery ride.

If you want to keep two interval sessions in the week then move the Monday session to the Friday.

joe2008

Vslowpace wrote:

Drop Monday and your recovery ride is not a recovery ride.

If you want to keep two interval sessions in the week then move the Monday session to the Friday.

Assuming a hard race effort on Thursday I wouldn't do an interval session on Friday.

LimitedGarry

Over-training can happen to all of us (unless you're doping) and it's extremely individual.

First signs typically are being unable to produce the same kind of effort, not feeling "combat ready" after doing a proper warmup with stretching, and generally not feeling so well on the high efforts and being very uncomfortable pushing yourself.
Other symptoms may be lack of appetite or a radical change in appetite (you suddenly have a craving for something you don't normally eat - note that eating that may actually be a good idea), problems with falling asleep, waking up an hour or two after falling asleep soaked in sweat, not feeling rested even after longer periods of sleep, mood swings and it goes on and on.
As noted by several sources online, once you get to that point, there's no other option but to rest. If you don't rest, you're only increasing the amount of rest you're going to need. Supposedly, if you push yourself too far, you may not be able to recover for months, possibly even more than a year.

Essentially, overtraining is not giving your body enough rest to recover. Keep in mind that you gain strength and muscle during recovery, not during the training.

If you have a regime going on and you're doing it long-term, you get used to it, you'll recover from those efforts faster and it will become harder to overtrain. That's assuming it's actually doable. The problem is when you convince yourself that you actually have to do all that stuff and keep pushing on despite your body telling you to stop.

So the only person to ask that question is you: Are you overtraining?

AK_jnr

You do no easy riding. A rough guide for endurance sports is an 80/20 split easy to hard. You ride in no mans land a lot.

w00dster

Hi AK_Jnr,
Sorry if this is a dumb question, but should I really be doing 80% of my riding as easy rides? I ride 5 times a week, that would mean my only hard session is a 1 hour crit.
The no man's land mileage I get, and my recovery ride on the Friday probably needs to be easier. I basically just spin at a higher cadence than normal at a RPE of about 6 out of 10.
Thanks for everyone's input. I took tonight of, didn't even do my usual 5 mile commute as felt pap. Plan is a very gentle 15 miles tomorrow, race Thursday, then 50 mile solo on Saturday (steady ride). Will take Sunday off, then intervals Monday, Tuesday.
Will give that schedule a go and see how I respond.

joe2008

Worth a look: http://mattfitzgerald.org/8020training/

If you think about it, 20% of training performed at high intensity is a lot.

Much more time spent riding at a low intensity will be more beneficial than riding moderately hard 80% of the time, and trying to do 20% HIIT on top of that.

Interesting quote from Jan Olbrecht's The Science of Winning:

"The hypothesis has, for quite some time, been put forth that training at maximal lactate steady state was the magic and optimal method to improve the athletes endurance (aerobic capacity/power ). However nothing is further from the truth."

Alex_Simmons/RST

joe2008 wrote:

Worth a look: http://mattfitzgerald.org/8020training/

If you think about it, 20% of training performed at high intensity is a lot.

Much more time spent riding at a low intensity will be more beneficial than riding moderately hard 80% of the time, and trying to do 20% HIIT on top of that.

Interesting quote from Jan Olbrecht's The Science of Winning:

"The hypothesis has, for quite some time, been put forth that training at maximal lactate steady state was the magic and optimal method to improve the athletes endurance (aerobic capacity/power ). However nothing is further from the truth."

The hypothesis that *not* training at MLSS is an optimal method to improve aerobic capacity / power is also far from the truth.

The reality is that adaptations are on a continuum and what's optimal is individual.

joe2008

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

joe2008 wrote:

Worth a look: http://mattfitzgerald.org/8020training/

If you think about it, 20% of training performed at high intensity is a lot.

Much more time spent riding at a low intensity will be more beneficial than riding moderately hard 80% of the time, and trying to do 20% HIIT on top of that.

Interesting quote from Jan Olbrecht's The Science of Winning:

"The hypothesis has, for quite some time, been put forth that training at maximal lactate steady state was the magic and optimal method to improve the athletes endurance (aerobic capacity/power ). However nothing is further from the truth."

The hypothesis that *not* training at MLSS is an optimal method to improve aerobic capacity / power is also far from the truth.

The reality is that adaptations are on a continuum and what's optimal is individual.

thought that might raise an eyebrow down under - Jan Olbrecht's The Science of Winning is a great read, if you haven't already read it.

AK_jnr

w00dster wrote:

Hi AK_Jnr,
Sorry if this is a dumb question, but should I really be doing 80% of my riding as easy rides? I ride 5 times a week, that would mean my only hard session is a 1 hour crit.
The no man's land mileage I get, and my recovery ride on the Friday probably needs to be easier. I basically just spin at a higher cadence than normal at a RPE of about 6 out of 10.
Thanks for everyone's input. I took tonight of, didn't even do my usual 5 mile commute as felt pap. Plan is a very gentle 15 miles tomorrow, race Thursday, then 50 mile solo on Saturday (steady ride). Will take Sunday off, then intervals Monday, Tuesday.
Will give that schedule a go and see how I respond.

You ride often and far enough to definitely benefit from easy riding. It might not sound alot but a 80/20 split is in relation to mileage so it will be more than you think. 200 mile week would be 40 miles worth of quality efforts!

Alex_Simmons/RST

AK_jnr wrote:

w00dster wrote:

Hi AK_Jnr,
Sorry if this is a dumb question, but should I really be doing 80% of my riding as easy rides? I ride 5 times a week, that would mean my only hard session is a 1 hour crit.
The no man's land mileage I get, and my recovery ride on the Friday probably needs to be easier. I basically just spin at a higher cadence than normal at a RPE of about 6 out of 10.
Thanks for everyone's input. I took tonight of, didn't even do my usual 5 mile commute as felt pap. Plan is a very gentle 15 miles tomorrow, race Thursday, then 50 mile solo on Saturday (steady ride). Will take Sunday off, then intervals Monday, Tuesday.
Will give that schedule a go and see how I respond.

You ride often and far enough to definitely benefit from easy riding. It might not sound alot but a 80/20 split is in relation to mileage so it will be more than you think. 200 mile week would be 40 miles worth of quality efforts!

The 80/20 split as described e.g. by Seiler is not on time, nor on mileage, but rather on whole rides. In that sense it's a rather nebulous definition since you then have to decide whether a ride fits into the 80 or the 20, when often it can be a bit of both.

When you actually start to examine people's supposed 80/20 training through the lens of, e.g. time above and below specific proportional VO2max levels we find such a training intensity distribution isn't nearly as polarised as people think, indeed it's often not polarised at all.

Alex_Simmons/RST

joe2008 wrote:

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

joe2008 wrote:

Worth a look: http://mattfitzgerald.org/8020training/

If you think about it, 20% of training performed at high intensity is a lot.

Much more time spent riding at a low intensity will be more beneficial than riding moderately hard 80% of the time, and trying to do 20% HIIT on top of that.

Interesting quote from Jan Olbrecht's The Science of Winning:

"The hypothesis has, for quite some time, been put forth that training at maximal lactate steady state was the magic and optimal method to improve the athletes endurance (aerobic capacity/power ). However nothing is further from the truth."

The hypothesis that *not* training at MLSS is an optimal method to improve aerobic capacity / power is also far from the truth.

The reality is that adaptations are on a continuum and what's optimal is individual.

thought that might raise an eyebrow down under - Jan Olbrecht's The Science of Winning is a great read, if you haven't already read it.

Well not that one study proves anything but it makes results like this hard to explain for anyone that thinks there is a no mans land intensity:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28121800