Giro 2017: Stage 9 Montenero Di Bisaccia - Blockhaus *spoilers*

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Comments

  • Dorset_Boy
    Dorset_Boy Posts: 6,917
    The idea that lining the pockets of lawyers is a solution is just barking.
    I'm certain the moto rider didn't intend to cause a crash. He got the protocol wrong and almost certainly won't ever do that again, and he, his bosses, colleagues and the race organizers need to learn from it.
    Without the co-operation of the police there would be no rad racing.
  • craigus89
    craigus89 Posts: 887
    KingstonGraham wrote:
    inseine wrote:
    Craigus89 wrote:
    To be fair to Movistar, isn't this the clearest example of why you ride on the front and not in the middle of the bunch?
    Yeah, why don't they all ride on the front? madness.

    To be fair, there was only 10 riders (across the whole road) in front of the Sky rider who took the first hit. Kelderman was third wheel. They weren't taking it easy in the middle of the bunch.

    Bad luck that it was them. Like it was with Valverde in the Vuelta a few years back.

    Both fair points, I just don't think Movistar should even be dragged into any discussion about this incident. I honestly can't see people having the same reaction if the tables were turned and it was Sky at the front not invovled in the accident and Thomas won the stage, certainly not from a lot of British fans anyway.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,568
    Markwb79 wrote:
    RichN95 wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Accidents happen.

    Blame blame blame.
    But it was caused by a policeman failing to follow protocol. If a policeman, through negligence, injures members of the public, it shouldn't ever be just brushed off. I'm not suggesting the full AC-12 treatment, but he should face a workplace disciplinary.

    I do think there is a case for suing for potential loss of earnings.

    11514-animated_gifchat8etf.gif
    _
  • dinyull
    dinyull Posts: 2,979
    Not wanting to get into the whole who's to blame malarkey, but something else from the moto's stood out to me yesterday - how close they were at times to the front of the bunch/head of the race.

    A number of times when Quintana/Pinot made a move yesterday a moto was no more than 5m ahead. At times you think, ah must be the old zoom lens, only for the camera to change to the heli and realise they are actually that close.

    Seen some riders complain on twatter of the same - Rory Sutherland said the bunch has been motopaced most of the time the past week whilst bringing back the break.
  • smithy21
    smithy21 Posts: 2,204
    Rider screws up and takes half the bunch out- that's racing.

    Moto does it- witch hunt!!!
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,149
    smithy21 wrote:
    Moto does it- witch hunt!!!
    The moto's only job to protect the safety of the riders. He failed utterly. Without accountability this will keep happening.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,568
    RichN95 wrote:
    smithy21 wrote:
    Moto does it- witch hunt!!!
    The moto's only job to protect the safety of the riders. He failed utterly. Without accountability this will keep happening.

    So what do you propose?

    Fines?

    Who would you get to do it?

    "Spend 3 weeks way from your family, and if you f*ck up we'll fine you".
    _
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,149
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    RichN95 wrote:
    smithy21 wrote:
    Moto does it- witch hunt!!!
    The moto's only job to protect the safety of the riders. He failed utterly. Without accountability this will keep happening.

    So what do you propose?

    Fines?

    Who would you get to do it?

    "Spend 3 weeks way from your family, and if you f*ck up we'll fine you".
    The policeman loses his police motorcycle licence until he has completed retraining. And he's not allowed near a bike race again. It might encourage the other policemen to listen in their initial training course.

    Or maybe they should just be replaced by full time professionals across the World Tour.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,568
    RichN95 wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    RichN95 wrote:
    smithy21 wrote:
    Moto does it- witch hunt!!!
    The moto's only job to protect the safety of the riders. He failed utterly. Without accountability this will keep happening.

    So what do you propose?

    Fines?

    Who would you get to do it?

    "Spend 3 weeks way from your family, and if you f*ck up we'll fine you".
    The policeman loses his police motorcycle licence until he has completed retraining. And he's not allowed near a bike race again. It might encourage the other policemen to listen in their initial training course.

    Or maybe they should just be replaced by full time professionals across the World Tour.

    No-one would sign up for it. If my job is a police motorcyclist, why would I volunteer for something where there's a decent chance a mistake will happen and I'll lose my licence for it?

    The latter is a much better idea, though not sure how workable in practice, given the road closures have to be enforced by the rozzers ultimately.
    _
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 20,564
    RichN95 wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    RichN95 wrote:
    smithy21 wrote:
    Moto does it- witch hunt!!!
    The moto's only job to protect the safety of the riders. He failed utterly. Without accountability this will keep happening.

    So what do you propose?

    Fines?

    Who would you get to do it?

    "Spend 3 weeks way from your family, and if you f*ck up we'll fine you".
    The policeman loses his police motorcycle licence until he has completed retraining. And he's not allowed near a bike race again. It might encourage the other policemen to listen in their initial training course.

    What should he have done?
    1. Stop on the right? Same thing could have happened.
    2. Not stop? I imagine leading to him not being able to provide security for whatever reason it was he was stopping
    3. Wait for a convenient motorbike stopping place (ignoring wide, straight roads) - looking for a lay-by not covered in motorhomes or pedestrians? See 2 - it could have been a while.
    4. Set off his, not yet installed, emergency-I-am-stopping siren to alert the cyclists that he is stopping? Using his regular siren would only cause confusion.

    This situation is completely different from previous ones where the motorbike was actually moving.
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 26,221
    Craigus89 wrote:
    KingstonGraham wrote:
    inseine wrote:
    Craigus89 wrote:
    To be fair to Movistar, isn't this the clearest example of why you ride on the front and not in the middle of the bunch?
    Yeah, why don't they all ride on the front? madness.

    To be fair, there was only 10 riders (across the whole road) in front of the Sky rider who took the first hit. Kelderman was third wheel. They weren't taking it easy in the middle of the bunch.

    Bad luck that it was them. Like it was with Valverde in the Vuelta a few years back.

    Both fair points, I just don't think Movistar should even be dragged into any discussion about this incident. I honestly can't see people having the same reaction if the tables were turned and it was Sky at the front not invovled in the accident and Thomas won the stage, certainly not from a lot of British fans anyway.

    Movistar weren't happy when Sky carried on riding hard after a crash as echelons were forming in 2012. Valverde went storming to Sky's bus to complain. Goes to show that if you are in front, it's a racing incident, if you are down, it's a lack of respect and not obeying the unwritten moral code.
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,149
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    [
    No-one would sign up for it. If my job is a police motorcyclist, why would I volunteer for something where there's a decent chance a mistake will happen and I'll lose my licence for it?
    Away from cycling, in their job as a traffic job, if they cause an accident due to negligence do you think they should be accountable? This isn't some special 'blame free' part of their job.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,568
    KingstonGraham wrote:
    Craigus89 wrote:
    KingstonGraham wrote:
    inseine wrote:
    Craigus89 wrote:
    To be fair to Movistar, isn't this the clearest example of why you ride on the front and not in the middle of the bunch?
    Yeah, why don't they all ride on the front? madness.

    To be fair, there was only 10 riders (across the whole road) in front of the Sky rider who took the first hit. Kelderman was third wheel. They weren't taking it easy in the middle of the bunch.

    Bad luck that it was them. Like it was with Valverde in the Vuelta a few years back.

    Both fair points, I just don't think Movistar should even be dragged into any discussion about this incident. I honestly can't see people having the same reaction if the tables were turned and it was Sky at the front not invovled in the accident and Thomas won the stage, certainly not from a lot of British fans anyway.

    Movistar weren't happy when Sky carried on riding hard after a crash as echelons were forming in 2012. Valverde went storming to Sky's bus to complain. Goes to show that if you are in front, it's a racing incident, if you are down, it's a lack of respect and not obeying the unwritten moral code.

    Part of the criticism is Movistar regularly exploit rivals falling over, even more explicitly than y'day.

    I remember there was a Paris Nice stage a few years ago where, basically on news of a rival falling in the decent, turned up the wick substantially.

    I don't remember Movistar moaning about no-one waiting during the echelons.

    Echelons = race is on.

    But Movistar take fewer prisoners than most.
    _
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,568
    RichN95 wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    [
    No-one would sign up for it. If my job is a police motorcyclist, why would I volunteer for something where there's a decent chance a mistake will happen and I'll lose my licence for it?
    Away from cycling, in their job as a traffic job, if they cause an accident due to negligence do you think they should be accountable? This isn't some special 'blame free' part of their job.

    For me, it's the equivalent of making teachers personally accountable for school trips.

    It's not your day job, is an aside for which everyone benefits and is a bit of a jolly.

    Now, the number of school trips has shrunk substantially, as fewer teachers are willing to wear the accountability; and I don't blame them.
    _
  • mamil314
    mamil314 Posts: 1,103
    Disappointed with Thomas. Sky racing rulebook clearly states 'When you fail to avoid a crash caused by an official vehicle, you continue on foot'
  • dinyull
    dinyull Posts: 2,979
    Ok, so getting into the argument:

    Dunno if this has been proven one way or the other, but what if the Police Bike had a mechanical? Meaning, for whatever reason he couldn't pull over to the right and had to stop pretty sharpish....

    Purely hypothetical.

    It doesn't absolve blame for he moto, or place blame onto the riders - but it's easy to forget that all it takes is for 1 lapse in concentration to cause a crash. 1 rider, in a bunch of almost 200 turns off for a split second and yesterday happens.

    Sometimes sh*t happens.......yesterday.
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,149
    TheBigBean wrote:

    What should he have done?
    1. Stop on the right? Same thing could have happened.
    2. Not stop? I imagine leading to him not being able to provide security for whatever reason it was he was stopping
    3. Wait for a convenient motorbike stopping place (ignoring wide, straight roads) - looking for a lay-by not covered in motorhomes or pedestrians? See 2 - it could have been a while.
    4. Set off his, not yet installed, emergency-I-am-stopping siren to alert the cyclists that he is stopping? Using his regular siren would only cause confusion.

    This situation is completely different from previous ones where the motorbike was actually moving.
    Ideally number 3. If takes a while then so be it. But really how long do ever go with out a lay-by, another road, a driveway etc?

    If he absolutely had to stop at that moment, then use the grass verge. Just get off the road.

    Otherwise, slowing to about 5 km/h slower than the peloton makes it fairly easy for them to pass safely. Avoiding a obstacle you are approaching at 5km/h is easier to avoid one than one you are approaching at 50km/h
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • FocusZing
    FocusZing Posts: 4,373
    mamil314 wrote:
    Disappointed with Thomas. Sky racing rulebook clearly states 'When you fail to avoid a crash caused by an official vehicle, you continue on foot'

    The Dawg had no bike, hence he went freestyle.
  • Richmond Racer 2
    Richmond Racer 2 Posts: 4,698
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    KingstonGraham wrote:
    Craigus89 wrote:
    KingstonGraham wrote:
    inseine wrote:
    Craigus89 wrote:
    To be fair to Movistar, isn't this the clearest example of why you ride on the front and not in the middle of the bunch?
    Yeah, why don't they all ride on the front? madness.

    To be fair, there was only 10 riders (across the whole road) in front of the Sky rider who took the first hit. Kelderman was third wheel. They weren't taking it easy in the middle of the bunch.

    Bad luck that it was them. Like it was with Valverde in the Vuelta a few years back.

    Both fair points, I just don't think Movistar should even be dragged into any discussion about this incident. I honestly can't see people having the same reaction if the tables were turned and it was Sky at the front not invovled in the accident and Thomas won the stage, certainly not from a lot of British fans anyway.

    Movistar weren't happy when Sky carried on riding hard after a crash as echelons were forming in 2012. Valverde went storming to Sky's bus to complain. Goes to show that if you are in front, it's a racing incident, if you are down, it's a lack of respect and not obeying the unwritten moral code.

    Part of the criticism is Movistar regularly exploit rivals falling over, even more explicitly than y'day.

    I remember there was a Paris Nice stage a few years ago where, basically on news of a rival falling in the decent, turned up the wick substantially.

    I don't remember Movistar moaning about no-one waiting during the echelons.

    Echelons = race is on.

    But Movistar take fewer prisoners than most.



    Lol. Piti went stropping off to the Sky bus after EchelonGate in the 2012 Vuelta. Admittedly he looked more camp than anything, throwing a strop
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,568
    Ah fair enough.

    I thought it was a 2012 Tour reference.

    Vuelta shmelta.
    _
  • bobmcstuff
    bobmcstuff Posts: 11,196
    RichN95 wrote:
    TheBigBean wrote:

    What should he have done?
    1. Stop on the right? Same thing could have happened.
    2. Not stop? I imagine leading to him not being able to provide security for whatever reason it was he was stopping
    3. Wait for a convenient motorbike stopping place (ignoring wide, straight roads) - looking for a lay-by not covered in motorhomes or pedestrians? See 2 - it could have been a while.
    4. Set off his, not yet installed, emergency-I-am-stopping siren to alert the cyclists that he is stopping? Using his regular siren would only cause confusion.

    This situation is completely different from previous ones where the motorbike was actually moving.
    Ideally number 3. If takes a while then so be it. But really how long do ever go with out a lay-by, another road, a driveway etc?

    If he absolutely had to stop at that moment, then use the grass verge. Just get off the road.

    Otherwise, slowing to about 5 km/h slower than the peloton makes it fairly easy for them to pass safely. Avoiding a obstacle you are approaching at 5km/h is easier to avoid one than one you are approaching at 50km/h

    I personally think no.1 would have been an improvement, since the peloton is conditioned to expect stationary vehicles on the right but not the left.

    Failing that the suggestion of keeping moving slightly slower than the peloton might be OK but I'm not sure having a moving motorbike so close to all the riders is a good idea.
  • bobmcstuff
    bobmcstuff Posts: 11,196
    http://video.eurosport.com/cycling/giro ... ideo.shtml

    Also looks like there was much more space on the right hand side of the road anyway.
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 20,564
    RichN95 wrote:
    TheBigBean wrote:

    What should he have done?
    1. Stop on the right? Same thing could have happened.
    2. Not stop? I imagine leading to him not being able to provide security for whatever reason it was he was stopping
    3. Wait for a convenient motorbike stopping place (ignoring wide, straight roads) - looking for a lay-by not covered in motorhomes or pedestrians? See 2 - it could have been a while.
    4. Set off his, not yet installed, emergency-I-am-stopping siren to alert the cyclists that he is stopping? Using his regular siren would only cause confusion.

    This situation is completely different from previous ones where the motorbike was actually moving.
    Ideally number 3. If takes a while then so be it. But really how long do ever go with out a lay-by, another road, a driveway etc?

    If he absolutely had to stop at that moment, then use the grass verge. Just get off the road.

    Otherwise, slowing to about 5 km/h slower than the peloton makes it fairly easy for them to pass safely. Avoiding a obstacle you are approaching at 5km/h is easier to avoid one than one you are approaching at 50km/h

    No expert on this one, but motorbikes weigh a lot and so it is not necessarily that easy to just wheel on and off the grass.

    Also, I think a motorbike slowly working its weigh back through the peloton is a recipe for a disaster. They weigh a lot and would be too close.
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 20,564
    Actually that particular grass verge looks ok, but I don't think it is generally a good idea.
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 20,564
    Also note that shortly after this wide straight road, they started climbing up the narrow road. Perhaps stopping on the hill would have been better, but there would have been less space and more pedestrians.
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,149
    TheBigBean wrote:
    Also, I think a motorbike slowly working its weigh back through the peloton is a recipe for a disaster. They weigh a lot and would be too close.
    They do it all the time. They just tuck into the side going slightly slower and the peloton avoid them easily as they have plenty of time to process the obstacle. It's the equivalent of avoiding a stationary obstacle while cycling at 5km/h.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • blazing_saddles
    blazing_saddles Posts: 21,812
    bobmcstuff wrote:
    http://video.eurosport.com/cycling/giro-d-italia/2017/huge-crash-with-motorbike-leaves-team-sky-hopes-in-tatters_vid975165/video.shtml

    Also looks like there was much more space on the right hand side of the road anyway.

    Especially as the lead BMC man decided to drift slightly left, towards the space the lead Sunweb rider was heading, taking evasive action for his train.
    Eurosport did get one, fleeting shot of the bunch coming out of that sharp right hander.
    Movi, BMC, Sky and Sunweb trains were line abreast. Sky were slightly the slowest and got squeezed by the other two coming together.

    The bottom line is the police moto was doing nothing, safety wise, parking up where he did.
    No moto should be parking up like that a few hundred metres from the start of a big climb, cos anyone should know that the pace would be full on.

    However, the Giro boss, Vengi thinks the police moto did nothing wrong.

    http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/giro-di ... an-police/

    Looks as if Landa may be abandoning.
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • ben@31
    ben@31 Posts: 2,327
    For the blame culture witch hunters... In the video footage where was the Police motorbike?

    - Was it sat right in the middle of the road, parked sideways, blocking the entire bunch? Like a deflated Flamme Rouge archway?

    - or was the Police motorbike parked at the edge of the wide road, actually on the verge side of the white line? 20 odd riders managed to avoid the motorbike while Sunweb and Sky got boxed into the left hand side of the road by BMC (or was it Bahrain in the red jerseys?) and Movistar.

    No point getting road rage as it doesn't change anything.
    "The Prince of Wales is now the King of France" - Calton Kirby
  • Vino'sGhost
    Vino'sGhost Posts: 4,129
    I find myself uncomfortably agreeing with RichN95.


    This in itself will convince some that Rich is obviously wrong LOLOLOLOL :D
  • salsiccia1
    salsiccia1 Posts: 3,725
    Blazing Saddles wrote:
    However, the Giro boss, Vengi thinks the police moto did nothing wrong.

    http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/giro-di ... an-police/

    Not sure that's correct:
    Mauro Vegni wrote:
    The police motorbike stopped to cover and protect the groups of riders that were forming. I could agree that it was an error of judgment to stop there, on a narrow section of road. He could have perhaps done it 100m further up the road

    In fairness to him, he's got to be diplomatic. There's no way he'll throw the moto rider under the bus, without them the Giro wouldn't exist.
    It's only a bit of sport, Mun. Relax and enjoy the racing.

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