Powermeter & Zwift

Wilby_89

Just about to get my garmin vector 2s power meter (first power meter) and I use my turbo trainer alot like prettymuch everyday.
Hearing a lot of praise about Zwift but was wondering is it only really worth it if you have a smart trainer.
My set up would consist of.
CycleOps magneto trainer.
garmin edge 810
Garmin speed & cadence sensor
garmin vector 2s which I think you can use the usb that comes with itto connect to zwift.

My real question is well all my stats on the 810 when riding (power, cadence & speed etc.)syncin with zwift and be accuratetowhats being displayed on my garmin or am I better to just try trainer roador some otherkind of program, thanks.

markhewitt1978

It depends what you want from your training. Yes you won't get the gradient simulation with Zwift the way you would with a smart trainer but the Vectors will work perfectly with it and since the speed of your rider is entirely determined by your power then it'll work just as well, you'll just have to swift gears into a higher gear on the climbs etc.

As for the stats, well the stats recorded on Zwift for your power & cadence will be exactly the same as your Garmin, speed and distance will be different obviously because if you're being simulated going up a 7% grade then your speed in game is going to be different from your back wheel which might be doing 30mph!

There's also workouts (tranier road esq) on Zwift so you get the best of both worlds really.

As for the USB, don't know what comes with the vectors but you need an ANT+ USB adapter for your PC to make it work.

Wilby_89

Thanks for the reply.
just downloaded zwift 14 day trial just to spectate and see what the fuss is about while I wait for my power meter and I have to say it looks like a lot of fun.
I see what you mean by the speed etc. being different to whats shown on my garmin because its not taking into acount the climbs and descents on zwift.
I think i will be investing a lot of time into it and looks very addictive.
Does anyone know that the usb stick that is supplied with the vectors 2s works as a dongle for zwift?

markhewitt1978

It's an ANT+ stick so quite possibly. Give it a try

Wilby_89

Tried it and it works.

ForumNewbie

When I tried Zwift a while ago with a non-Smart turbo, my speed showing on Zwift was always siginificantly higher than that showing on my Garmin.

markhewitt1978

ForumNewbie wrote:

When I tried Zwift a while ago with a non-Smart turbo, my speed showing on Zwift was always siginificantly higher than that showing on my Garmin.

Zwift uses your power output. The speed on your Garmin is of no relevance.

ForumNewbie

markhewitt1978 wrote:

ForumNewbie wrote:

When I tried Zwift a while ago with a non-Smart turbo, my speed showing on Zwift was always siginificantly higher than that showing on my Garmin.

Zwift uses your power output. The speed on your Garmin is of no relevance.

Yes, I remember us discussing this subject on a previous thread Mark. As I don't have a power meter or smart trainer, Zwift tended to give me unrealistic speeds. I'd be kidding myself if I believed I was pedalling at these speeds.

sloppyschleckonds

Wilby_89 wrote:

Thanks for the reply.
just downloaded zwift 14 day trial just to spectate and see what the fuss is about while I wait for my power meter and I have to say it looks like a lot of fun.

If waggling your legs on a turbo is your idea of fun then yes.

In time you'll find the turbo is a means to an end.

markhewitt1978

ForumNewbie wrote:

markhewitt1978 wrote:

ForumNewbie wrote:

When I tried Zwift a while ago with a non-Smart turbo, my speed showing on Zwift was always siginificantly higher than that showing on my Garmin.

Zwift uses your power output. The speed on your Garmin is of no relevance.

Yes, I remember us discussing this subject on a previous thread Mark. As I don't have a power meter or smart trainer, Zwift tended to give me unrealistic speeds. I'd be kidding myself if I believed I was pedalling at these speeds.

Is it a supported trainer in Zwift? As it then goes off the resistance curve from your trainer and trying to map your wheel speed from that into power, so it goes Wheel speed -> Power output estimate -> Zwift rider speed.

That said even with a smart trainer or power meter Zwift speeds are on the high side - on the flat course I regularly do 18-19mph average but in real life I'm more like 14-15mph, 16mph on a good day. It may be because there's no concept of braking in Zwift or stopping for junctions etc or that the physics is a bit out.

fat daddy

Yes I find the speeds too high on Zwift as well ... Once you get into the mindset that it's a game and not real life, the switch between commuting and climbing to the tower is easier to accept

I now do more miles in zwift than I do on the road

ForumNewbie

markhewitt1978 wrote:

ForumNewbie wrote:

markhewitt1978 wrote:

ForumNewbie wrote:

When I tried Zwift a while ago with a non-Smart turbo, my speed showing on Zwift was always siginificantly higher than that showing on my Garmin.

Zwift uses your power output. The speed on your Garmin is of no relevance.

Yes, I remember us discussing this subject on a previous thread Mark. As I don't have a power meter or smart trainer, Zwift tended to give me unrealistic speeds. I'd be kidding myself if I believed I was pedalling at these speeds.

Is it a supported trainer in Zwift? As it then goes off the resistance curve from your trainer and trying to map your wheel speed from that into power, so it goes Wheel speed -> Power output estimate -> Zwift rider speed.

That said even with a smart trainer or power meter Zwift speeds are on the high side - on the flat course I regularly do 18-19mph average but in real life I'm more like 14-15mph, 16mph on a good day. It may be because there's no concept of braking in Zwift or stopping for junctions etc or that the physics is a bit out.

Yes, it is a supported trainer. My speed differences were around the same as yours when I used Zwift. If I was spinning at say 90rpm in gear 34/15, my Garmin would correctly show a speed of about 16mph whether I was out on the road or on the turbo, but Zwift would show me as doing 19/20mph. Accordingly I tended to take more notice of my Garmin readings, even when on the turbo.

Dave_P1

Speed is irrelevant on a turbo trainer, it doesn't matter what your garmin or zwift says it's the quality of the session that counts.

ForumNewbie

Dave_P1 wrote:

Speed is irrelevant on a turbo trainer, it doesn't matter what your garmin or zwift says it's the quality of the session that counts.

You could say that for cycling on the road as well, but people are interested in their speed.

markhewitt1978

Dave_P1 wrote:

Speed is irrelevant on a turbo trainer, it doesn't matter what your garmin or zwift says it's the quality of the session that counts.

With a turbo trainer on it's own yes. Not so on Zwift, since speed is entirely dependent on power output then it matters there just as much as it matters on the road. That the two aren't directly relatable is another issue.

ForumNewbie

markhewitt1978 wrote:

Dave_P1 wrote:

Speed is irrelevant on a turbo trainer, it doesn't matter what your garmin or zwift says it's the quality of the session that counts.

With a turbo trainer on it's own yes. Not so on Zwift, since speed is entirely dependent on power output then it matters there just as much as it matters on the road. That the two aren't directly relatable is another issue.

Mark, as you previously said, your speed on Zwift shows about 4mph higher than it would be on the road. Accordingly I don't see how the speed on Zwift is relevant as it incorrect.

markhewitt1978

ForumNewbie wrote:

With a turbo trainer on it's own yes. Not so on Zwift, since speed is entirely dependent on power output then it matters there just as much as it matters on the road. That the two aren't directly relatable is another issue.

Mark, as you previously said, your speed on Zwift shows about 4mph higher than it would be on the road. Accordingly I don't see how the speed on Zwift is relevant as it incorrect.[/quote]

As I said, speed on Zwift is not comparable to speed outside, but that doesn't mean the metric is useless. If you've previously done the mountain course at 18mph and then you do it at 20mph average then you know you've put in a bigger effort, the same as you would if you'd gone faster outside.

Whereas without the likes of Zwift the speed of your rear wheel *is* useless as it depends on the resistance on the roller.

ForumNewbie

markhewitt1978 wrote:

ForumNewbie wrote:

With a turbo trainer on it's own yes. Not so on Zwift, since speed is entirely dependent on power output then it matters there just as much as it matters on the road. That the two aren't directly relatable is another issue.

Mark, as you previously said, your speed on Zwift shows about 4mph higher than it would be on the road. Accordingly I don't see how the speed on Zwift is relevant as it incorrect.

As I said, speed on Zwift is not comparable to speed outside, but that doesn't mean the metric is useless. If you've previously done the mountain course at 18mph and then you do it at 20mph average then you know you've put in a bigger effort, the same as you would if you'd gone faster outside.

Whereas without the likes of Zwift the speed of your rear wheel *is* useless as it depends on the resistance on the roller.

My turbo has no resistance settings - it's just my weight on the back tyre on the roller. If I was to do a turbo session in gear 34/15 at 90rpm, my Garmin speed would show as 16mph - same as it would be if I was in the same gear and same cadence on the road. If I did a turbo session the following day in the same 34/15 gear, but upped my cadence to 100rpm, my Garmin speed showing would be up to nearly 18mph, showing that I put in a bigger effort.

Accordingly without using Zwift I can still compare my efforts the turbo.

markhewitt1978

Yup. That's right. The only thing is where someone says "I did 20 miles on a turbo" without any reference point it means nothing. At least with Zwift if I did 20 miles and you did 20 miles you know it's a comparible ride as long as both of our turbos are calibrated correctly.

nicklong

ForumNewbie wrote:

markhewitt1978 wrote:

ForumNewbie wrote:

With a turbo trainer on it's own yes. Not so on Zwift, since speed is entirely dependent on power output then it matters there just as much as it matters on the road. That the two aren't directly relatable is another issue.

Mark, as you previously said, your speed on Zwift shows about 4mph higher than it would be on the road. Accordingly I don't see how the speed on Zwift is relevant as it incorrect.

As I said, speed on Zwift is not comparable to speed outside, but that doesn't mean the metric is useless. If you've previously done the mountain course at 18mph and then you do it at 20mph average then you know you've put in a bigger effort, the same as you would if you'd gone faster outside.

Whereas without the likes of Zwift the speed of your rear wheel *is* useless as it depends on the resistance on the roller.

My turbo has no resistance settings - it's just my weight on the back tyre on the roller. If I was to do a turbo session in gear 34/15 at 90rpm, my Garmin speed would show as 16mph - same as it would be if I was in the same gear and same cadence on the road. If I did a turbo session the following day in the same 34/15 gear, but upped my cadence to 100rpm, my Garmin speed showing would be up to nearly 18mph, showing that I put in a bigger effort.

Accordingly without using Zwift I can still compare my efforts the turbo.

Speed on the turbo and speed outside will be identical as the Garmin is counting wheel revolutions. Claiming it is a harder effort is not a given though. Eg your rear wheel could be suspended in mid air but your Garmin would still give you the same speed, whilst your effort would be close to zero.

I'd expect there is much less rolling resistance on a roller - your force is pushing the roller around an axis as opposed to pushing you through the air.

ravey1981

Zwift speed is always faster than RL speed for the same effort. I suspect this is an intentional move on the part of zwift in that looking at the in game speeds it flatters the rider. No one would want to play a game where they are slower than in real life! In any case I think zwift is great. It kept my fitness levels way higher last winter as it is simply less boring than a normal turbo session so I was more inclined to get on the thing. I quickly moved from a normal trainer to a smart (tacx vortex) and the difference for me was massive.... you brain quite quickly adjusts to make it feel very real. I did a few of the organised races which are a hell of a workout. Take the numbers with a pinch of salt, enjoy the fact you can keep yourself in good form whilst its dark, cold and wet outside. I'll be setting the turbo back up soon but as it is I'm enjoying being on the real roads.

antsmithmk

You should try an elite fluid elestogel.... then come back and see if you think it offers less resistance than outdoors riding! It's a brute!

ForumNewbie

antsmithmk wrote:

You should try an elite fluid elestogel.... then come back and see if you think it offers less resistance than outdoors riding! It's a brute!

I have one of these and it seems to me similar to riding on a flat road apart from the fact you obviously have no air resistance.

antsmithmk

ForumNewbie wrote:

antsmithmk wrote:

You should try an elite fluid elestogel.... then come back and see if you think it offers less resistance than outdoors riding! It's a brute!

I have one of these and it seems to me similar to riding on a flat road apart from the fact you obviously have no air resistance.

OK I'm a weakling

ForumNewbie

antsmithmk wrote:

ForumNewbie wrote:

antsmithmk wrote:

You should try an elite fluid elestogel.... then come back and see if you think it offers less resistance than outdoors riding! It's a brute!

I have one of these and it seems to me similar to riding on a flat road apart from the fact you obviously have no air resistance.

OK I'm a weakling

I doubt you are any weaker than me - maybe you are trying to do it in too high a gear. When I was using the turbo last winter I found it best to start in a mid cassette sprocket and small chain ring, and after warming up a bit I moved up a few gears at the back but stayed in the small ring with a high cadence. I still found that hard work and built up a good sweat without even going into the big chain ring.

ravey1981

ForumNewbie wrote:

antsmithmk wrote:

ForumNewbie wrote:

antsmithmk wrote:

You should try an elite fluid elestogel.... then come back and see if you think it offers less resistance than outdoors riding! It's a brute!

I have one of these and it seems to me similar to riding on a flat road apart from the fact you obviously have no air resistance.

OK I'm a weakling

I doubt you are any weaker than me - maybe you are trying to do it in too high a gear. When I was using the turbo last winter I found it best to start in a mid cassette sprocket and small chain ring, and after warming up a bit I moved up a few gears at the back but stayed in the small ring with a high cadence. I still found that hard work and built up a good sweat without even going into the big chain ring.

If it feels like a flat road then why are you using the small chainring?

ForumNewbie

ravey1981 wrote:

ForumNewbie wrote:

antsmithmk wrote:

ForumNewbie wrote:

antsmithmk wrote:

You should try an elite fluid elestogel.... then come back and see if you think it offers less resistance than outdoors riding! It's a brute!

I have one of these and it seems to me similar to riding on a flat road apart from the fact you obviously have no air resistance.

OK I'm a weakling

I doubt you are any weaker than me - maybe you are trying to do it in too high a gear. When I was using the turbo last winter I found it best to start in a mid cassette sprocket and small chain ring, and after warming up a bit I moved up a few gears at the back but stayed in the small ring with a high cadence. I still found that hard work and built up a good sweat without even going into the big chain ring.

If it feels like a flat road then why are you using the small chainring?

Why not? I can keep up a high cadence for longer and have a better workout than trying to do it in a bigger gear.

Man Of Lard

markhewitt1978 wrote:

Yup. That's right. The only thing is where someone says "I did 20 miles on a turbo" without any reference point it means nothing. At least with Zwift if I did 20 miles and you did 20 miles you know it's a comparible ride as long as both of our turbos are calibrated correctly.

And nobody was being optimistic with their weight... I find I can go much faster in Zwift when I shave 20kg off my weight compared to real life...

markhewitt1978

It's very tempting to change your weight on Zwift considering how easy it is. I haven't done it but I do wonder if making my weight what I want to be rather than what I am would mean I can take part in group rides and the likes.

antsmithmk

You can take part no matter what your weight and power. The thing to remember about the races is you need to be at 500W 5 secs before the off and hold it as long as you can! The races resemble cyclocross races in that the big sprint is at the start not the end. Once your off and running you find your rhythm and find a group to race in and with.

Man Of Lard

markhewitt1978 wrote:

It's very tempting to change your weight on Zwift considering how easy it is. I haven't done it but I do wonder if making my weight what I want to be rather than what I am would mean I can take part in group rides and the likes.

You could claim that you're researching the effect on your cycling of a 5/10/15/20kg drop in your weight (assuming you retain the power )