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Power meter and too many distractions!

CRAIGO5000CRAIGO5000 Posts: 697
I've been riding and training for years now and raced a few seasons back with some good results using nothing more than a turbo running virtual power via TrainerRoad and doing the odd club ride.

Now I'm getting into power training having just bought a Stages to suit both my Sram bikes (Winter commuter and Summer Racer)

I'm now a bit lost with how to track performance and log miles as there is so much kit and services to update.Everything I've ever done is on Strava, but then Golden Cheetah is now reserved for all real power analysis, then there are the rides I do on Zwift which to me, are skewed because of the game nature to it. (aero, drafting and virtual hill climbing speeds etc)

Currently, I train on my Summer race bike on the turbo with the following kit:
A laptop running TrainerRoad with planned sessions based on FTP via ANT+ stick 1 with TrainerRelay broadcasting to ANT+ stick 2 on a separate computer running Zwift. I have my Garmin 800, speed sensor and Stages (with built in cadence).

I then finish the workout and upload the Zwift version of the training session directly via the app to Strava and keep the Garmin recorded version to add to my Golden Cheetah power analysis (because it's consistent). The trouble is, Strava seem to be in limbo and have started excluding Zwift rides to a degree so it's impossible to track base miles on there now. TrainerRoad house it's own archive, but it obviously excludes anything I do outdoors. The whole thing is now a right mess!

I own the following bits of kit;
Garmin Edge800
Bontrager Cadence meter (Winter)
Garmin Speed/Cadence meter (Summer)
Stages power meter with cadence in-built (Summer)
Garmin HRM
2 x Ant+ sticks

so if anyone has a better idea of how to sort this mess out using the above kit, I'd appreciate it. I want a clear log for power analysis over the coming months and years so I can see trends, this will exclude my cycle commute to and from work but will include "training rides" outdoors and also any turbo training.

I can't see a simpler way?
Ribble Stealth/SRAM Force
2007 Specialized Allez (Double) FCN - 3

Posts

  • Whenever you ride always record on your Garmin, be it outdoor, or indoors. Automatically upload to Garmin Connect and then let that "explode" the data to other places for analysis or whatever. Strava, Training Peaks etc.

    The power and heart data are what matter. Miles are just vanity. Its TSS that really matters.
  • I upload everything to Training Peaks. TrainerRoad and outdoor rides. Strava is a toy in comparison!
  • jgsijgsi Posts: 5,026
    Logged to Strava and Training Peaks for the sake of keeping their respective diaries up to date. Cloud based backup of sorts.
    However, locally installed Golden Cheetah is for dark of winter analysis and now I have got the training function work properly, it covers all the training including the indoor sufferfests with erg or mrc files pinched off the internet to pair up with the video intervals.
    All for free.. lots of analysis if you want it.. but I keep it simple to keep eye on CTL/Tss /IF relationship.
    Currently I have 1 single graph plotting 10 min peak power.. as the season starts to get nearer, focus in on 5 and 3 mins.
    it s all about keeping simple despite the technology and sticking to basically age old fitness principles that NEVER change despite many an attempt to run up Emperor's new clothes to make a quick buck.
    I do use Garmins but their pedalling dynamics are just plain kybosh.
  • Dave_P1Dave_P1 Posts: 565
    Miles on the turbo don't count for anything and the same can be said for the road, it's time in the saddle that makes the difference, not the miles.
    Continue your uploads to GC to analyse the files and monitor other factors from your Garmin.
    If you use Strava to log everything, then just enter a manual entry with the stats from your Garmin.
  • chrisw12chrisw12 Posts: 1,246
    Back to basics, power meter,turbo, record workouts on my garmin then upload to golden C only. Once I mastered the flow of that, I'added in strava and now zwift. You're right though, it can all get a bit overkill.
  • I can't see a simpler way?

    Personally, I'd sell the lot. Just ride your bike and enjoy it, over time you'll know when you're fit, and when you're tired and need some recovery.

    I look forward to the day I see someone riding with an iPad mounted on their handlebars
    I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles
  • cruffcruff Posts: 1,521
    I upload to Garmin Connect and Strava automatically via my Edge, and from there it goes into Training Peaks. Took me a while of fiddling with various bits and pieces to get the data that I want and not have to do it all manually, but now works like a charm. Agree about Zwift - I've just started racing on there and much as the numbers I'm putting out are an ego boost, it's pointless taking anything about mileage seriously (raced at 41km/h with 300 metres of elevation on Monday which would probably out me at cat 2 IRL (and I'm far far away from being a cat 2 :D) - but the power data from my vectors is invaluable for getting l/r imbalance sorted out, normalised power and tss
    Fat chopper. Some racing. Some testing. Some crashing.
    Specialising in Git Daaahns and Cafs. Norvern Munkey/Transplanted Laaandoner.
  • supermurph09supermurph09 Posts: 2,471
    joe2008 wrote:
    I can't see a simpler way?

    Personally, I'd sell the lot. Just ride your bike and enjoy it, over time you'll know when you're fit, and when you're tired and need some recovery.

    Deary me.
  • BrandonABrandonA Posts: 553
    The following link is to a site that provided a spreadsheet. For a quick and easy way of tracking form/fitness/freshness I find it quite good.

    http://www.coachcox.co.uk/2012/03/30/ho ... ent-chart/

    As others have said, always record rides with your Garmin. This will give you your TSS which can be loaded into the above spreadsheet.

    I also use WKO for more detailed analysis.

    I also like the power curve in Strava
  • BrandonABrandonA Posts: 553
    If you go a web search for "tss spreadsheet". The first one should be for "coachcox". This contains a good spreedsheet which you can use to track form/freshness/fitness.

    As others have said, always record rides with your Garmin. This will give you your TSS which can be loaded into the above spreadsheet.

    I also use WKO for more detailed analysis.

    I also like the power curve in Strava
  • imposter2.0imposter2.0 Posts: 11,003
    joe2008 wrote:
    joe2008 wrote:
    I can't see a simpler way?

    Personally, I'd sell the lot. Just ride your bike and enjoy it, over time you'll know when you're fit, and when you're tired and need some recovery.

    Deary me.

    And, what's wrong with that? Works for me.

    'works for me' is what people say when they have no plausible explanation.
  • That spreadsheet looks exactly like what I need - Thanks! I like the way i can add in my daily low TSS commutes to work and then on the same day, my harder TrainerRoad TSS structured training values.

    One problem, how do I determine an accurate ATL and CTL start having no real previous data to go off? This is seed data so I asume it needs to be accurately derived from something?
    Ribble Stealth/SRAM Force
    2007 Specialized Allez (Double) FCN - 3
  • fenixfenix Posts: 5,437
    Are you just monitoring or following a plan ? Power is quite interesting on the road - but for proper sessions I find the turbo to be the best way to train.
  • I'm following a specific TrainerRoad program until April. Averaging 350TSS per week, plus I ride 5 miles to and 5 back from work each day - I'd need to ride that journey each way to gauge a rough TSS value for a steady pace.
    Ribble Stealth/SRAM Force
    2007 Specialized Allez (Double) FCN - 3
  • CRAIGO5000 wrote:
    I'm following a specific TrainerRoad program until April. Averaging 350TSS per week, plus I ride 5 miles to and 5 back from work each day - I'd need to ride that journey each way to gauge a rough TSS value for a steady pace.
    Really?
    How does that work?
  • https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/pla ... mid-volume

    And then move onto a rolling road phase with period FTP testing every 4-6 weeks.

    Anyone for establishing starting CTL and ATL figures - or will these just self generate as I log away the TSS figures week after week?
    Ribble Stealth/SRAM Force
    2007 Specialized Allez (Double) FCN - 3
  • CRAIGO5000 wrote:
    https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/plans/155-general-build-mid-volume

    And then move onto a rolling road phase with period FTP testing every 4-6 weeks.

    Anyone for establishing starting CTL and ATL figures - or will these just self generate as I log away the TSS figures week after week?

    Sorry, it wasnt the trainer road thing I was asking about. I was wondering why you need to do an easy ride to establish TSS. It can only really be properly calculated from power, heart or at worst case PE data.

    Yes, CTL and ATL will eventually sort themselves out, but it takes weeks.

    "You might also want to change the STARTING VALUE for both the CTL CONSTANT and the ATL CONSTANT. We recommend that you multiply the average amount of hours per day that you ride, by 30, then multiple that by .70, and that should give you a starting point. Use this value for both the ATL and CTL."
  • CRAIGO5000 wrote:
    https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/plans/155-general-build-mid-volume

    And then move onto a rolling road phase with period FTP testing every 4-6 weeks.

    Anyone for establishing starting CTL and ATL figures - or will these just self generate as I log away the TSS figures week after week?

    Sorry, it wasnt the trainer road thing I was asking about. I was wondering why you need to do an easy ride to establish TSS. It can only really be properly calculated from power, heart or at worst case PE data.

    Yes, CTL and ATL will eventually sort themselves out, but it takes weeks.

    "You might also want to change the STARTING VALUE for both the CTL CONSTANT and the ATL CONSTANT. We recommend that you multiply the average amount of hours per day that you ride, by 30, then multiple that by .70, and that should give you a starting point. Use this value for both the ATL and CTL."

    I see, thanks. My commuter doesn't have a power meter but its still 10 miles mon-fri of steady riding. (I tend to sit around 70-80% MaxHR. I figured that each ride must be worth a measly 15-20TSS. Should I evaluate these commutes to work as part of my structured training or simply leave them out all together?
    Ribble Stealth/SRAM Force
    2007 Specialized Allez (Double) FCN - 3
  • Exactly. How can you gauge the accumulative increases in TSS if you're just going out blindly and riding? I can ride 350 TSS per week outdoors but how will I know "how" that TSS was actually achieved? The likelihood would be through simply sitting at 80% of max heart rate with a complete and unstructured minimal amount of time spent in any other power zone. Sure, i'll get better, but that will only be better over the coming weeks of doing the exact same style of blind riding. I plan on racing so I need to spend time working on sprint efforts, prolonged time spent at Vo2Max, all of which you can't do accurately without a power meter and logging all the data.

    350TSS acumulative TSS per week = 4.5 hours of structured and focused power training designed to expand upon FTP. I also commute to work everyday but won't have any TSS added for these rides as I'm not swapping my PM between bikes twice a day.

    I've rode with some guys in my club who average in excess of 250 miles per week blind. They are no stronger than me and if anything, can't sometimes keep up with the pace. Certainly, they aren't riding miles to race - they're riding for fun, but effectively riding junk miles. My time is too precious and I don't have much of it with having kids/full time job/wife/house to look after etc. This is why I bought a power meter as I've come from training without one. I just need to fully understand how to effectively execute it's use ;)
    Ribble Stealth/SRAM Force
    2007 Specialized Allez (Double) FCN - 3
  • stretchystretchy Posts: 149
    joe2008 wrote:
    CRAIGO5000 wrote:
    I'm following a specific TrainerRoad program until April. Averaging 350TSS per week, plus I ride 5 miles to and 5 back from work each day - I'd need to ride that journey each way to gauge a rough TSS value for a steady pace.

    350 TSS per week. What I said: sell the lot and just enjoy riding your bike.

    Maybe he is enjoying riding his bike?
  • I mentioned he is? He's enjoying it, but riding well in excess of 350TSS a week and that's perfectly fine.
    I can accumulate 350TSS per week and absorb a wider variety of training then he will be by ticking off mile after mile on the road, that's why I don't agree with the training ethos mentioned above to "just ride loads of miles outside".

    I am training, he isn't training. I also enjoy turbo training too. It's only a few months on the rack and it reaps lots of reward. I'm looking forward to the benefits come April/May when I can do all my riding outdoors and start racing. I saw those benefits a few years back using a training plan based off "virtual power".
    Ribble Stealth/SRAM Force
    2007 Specialized Allez (Double) FCN - 3
  • on-yer-bikeon-yer-bike Posts: 2,974
    What does TSS stand for? I thought it was Toxic Shock Syndrome?
    Pegoretti
    Colnago
    Cervelo
    Campagnolo
  • jgsijgsi Posts: 5,026
    On the commute front, daily rides 4 in my case.. not for long admittedly, but they all add up.. and more importantly can impact on your general fatigue levels.. that Downward Spiral after work ...? can be a challenge...
    When it happens , I give 15 mins to 20 if I cant hold the power , I climb off... as I did with AVDP last night.. I just couldnt hold what I needed to hold.
    Thats when you gain the benefit of a power meter.
    If you dont race though, why bother.. buy some nice kit or wheels for the money instead.
    Reliabilities start on Sunday, aint bothering , as facebook grapevine already lively with chat about summer bike and no mudguards.. well I can well do without that bit of showboating in January.
  • Calculate average on bike training hours per week for past 3 weeks and past 12 weeks. Multiply each by 7 to give approx seed values for ATL and CTL respectively.

    e.g. 6 hours per week for last 3 weeks = approx ATL of 42TSS/day. 7 hours per week for last 12 weeks = approx CTL of 49TSS/day

    Obviously it won't be perfect, but it'll be closer than starting with zero values and help the PM chart converge to actual more quickly than it otherwise would (i.e. 3-4 months of data).
  • cyclecliniccycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    stop riding zwift will probably sort the mess. I track stress with how I feel. I can tell pretty quickly how fatigued I am with a couple of test efforts at consistant power and looking at how my heart rate changes. If I see fatigue (I feel it) I back of and do an easy ride. I do use golden cheetah and strava too but they tell me little I can't figure out for myself. All three measures of stress concluded last week I was stressed so I had a light week for me and all three methods say this week I am recovered and I feel that way too.

    Maybe I am missing something this data tells me. Surely as the OP has been training for years you can also do the same as me log the rides so you know what you have done (the power meter is useful here) and judge stress with how you feel after warm up efforts.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • cyclecliniccycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    Also why not put the PM on the commutor. I do most of my training commuting so that bike has PM. that way I can monitor myself alot better.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • Thanks for the input. Zwift is only being used as stimulant. It runs off my desktop computer while my focus is on the wattage I need to hit is running on the TrainerRoad laptop next to it. It's a very stimulating experience having something to look at with other riders chatting and flying around. I never use the Zwift data to upload for analysis.

    With regards to putting the power meter on the commuter, that won't really work. I only do ~40 miles (10 journeys of 15mins each way) per week on that bike. That data I "think" could be averaged (to gain a TSS figure - which I bet is around 10) or plain left out of being recorded?

    I think I may have sorted a plan that works with minimal fuss for the remainder of my turbo focussed training.
    Record all sessions on Garmin using TrainerRoad for FTP and completed structured month to month training. If substituting a turbo session for an outdoor ride - swap the power meter over if required (takes no longer than 5 mins).

    Use Strava to log the miles off. It's kind of pointless from a training perspective, but I like it's social side.

    Use Golden Cheetah for pure data analysis and geeking out. I've added key races in it's calender and with around 6 weeks of power data, the PMC should really start to come into it's own. It's already giving some interesting feedback over the past couple of weeks of weeks.

    I've also realised just how much power I actually waste in an outdoor ride. Tonight I swapped the power meter over to the commuter bike in order to do my easy 90 mins in zone 2. It was scary how much energy is lost when the gradient kicks up even a small amount or when you're forced to slow and then need to get back up to pace - I found myself wavering up to zone 5 and 6! I know it may sound obvious to all you power meter owners but it's 101 for me. I'm looking forward to pacing and being sensible (thus faster!) in the local hills in a few months!
    Ribble Stealth/SRAM Force
    2007 Specialized Allez (Double) FCN - 3
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