Bottled Turbo Session
dyrlac
Posts: 751
Something I've been wondering about:
When you're a quarter way into a session (2x20s, for example) but are really struggling--and in fact struggled from the off--to maintain power (L4, for example) for whatever reason, do you:
1) get off the bike immediately;
2) concoct some substitute session on the fly (eg, dropping down to a L2 spin for the rest of the planned time); or
3) carry on with the planned structure with reduced power targets (eg, do the 20s at L3).
My approach this afternoon :oops: was (2), after all, I was already in the gym and would have to shower anyway (sunk cost fallacy be dammed), and the way things were going meant that (3) was more likely to end up in L1 because I was mentally beaten; but would (1) have been a better decision (on an accumulated fatigue theory), even if I can't reschedule the session for the next day?
Context: I normally do 2x20s on the wattbike twice a week (Tue/Thu) on top of my regular commute as part of a long-term programme aimed at (ultra) endurance events; current monthly TSS budget (including commutes) is c. 3750 (weeks are between 750-1100 depending on whether I get in a weekend ride).
When you're a quarter way into a session (2x20s, for example) but are really struggling--and in fact struggled from the off--to maintain power (L4, for example) for whatever reason, do you:
1) get off the bike immediately;
2) concoct some substitute session on the fly (eg, dropping down to a L2 spin for the rest of the planned time); or
3) carry on with the planned structure with reduced power targets (eg, do the 20s at L3).
My approach this afternoon :oops: was (2), after all, I was already in the gym and would have to shower anyway (sunk cost fallacy be dammed), and the way things were going meant that (3) was more likely to end up in L1 because I was mentally beaten; but would (1) have been a better decision (on an accumulated fatigue theory), even if I can't reschedule the session for the next day?
Context: I normally do 2x20s on the wattbike twice a week (Tue/Thu) on top of my regular commute as part of a long-term programme aimed at (ultra) endurance events; current monthly TSS budget (including commutes) is c. 3750 (weeks are between 750-1100 depending on whether I get in a weekend ride).
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I would never get off it would p1ss me off even more later. Like you say I would probably just stick to z2 for the rest or possibly try some short intervals and see how they go0
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Often i get halfway through a session (especially 90min +) and think i cant complete it but i always do and pleased that i finished.
If i've struggled within 20 mins i have gotten off before and put it down to being fatigued. Hit it again the next day and completed it
MattScott Foil Di2 viewtopic.php?f=40044&t=13020685&p=19496365#p19496365
Genesis Volare 853 viewtopic.php?f=40044&t=13020702&p=19589281#p195892810 -
Sorry, but I don't understand the figures in your context?Context: I normally do 2x20s on the wattbike twice a week (Tue/Thu) on top of my regular commute as part of a long-term programme aimed at (ultra) endurance events; current monthly TSS budget (including commutes) is c. 3750 (weeks are between 750-1100 depending on whether I get in a weekend ride).0 -
There are times I've stopped, normaly if I feel so drained I think I'm unwell. There are other times I've taken more breaks so instead of 2*20 it's ended up as 3, 4, 5 or more work intervals adding up to 40 mins. Sometimes I do a warm up and decide what session I'm going to do based on how I feel after.[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]0
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Given the amount of TSS you are doing I don't think climbing off should worry you too much, it's most likely fatigue?
What does you weekly training look like?Trainer Road Blog: https://hitthesweetspot.home.blog/
Cycling blog: https://harderfasterlonger.wordpress.com/
Blog: https://supermurphtt2015.wordpress.com/
TCTP: https://supermurph.wordpress.com/0 -
Sorry, but I don't understand the figures in your context?Context: I normally do 2x20s on the wattbike twice a week (Tue/Thu) on top of my regular commute as part of a long-term programme aimed at (ultra) endurance events; current monthly TSS budget (including commutes) is c. 3750 (weeks are between 750-1100 depending on whether I get in a weekend ride).
Included because every question on the training, fitness & health forum elicits a request for goals, training load, fitness, etc. Trying to preempt that! Given that I have to work for a living and I'm building up to events which are quite a ways away, I have given myself monthly cumulative TSS budget (not a target because I don't want to exceed it) to try to avoid running myself into the ground. Reasonably early days though, so 3750 may well be too high...Supermurph09 wrote:Given the amount of TSS you are doing I don't think climbing off should worry you too much, it's most likely fatigue?
What does you weekly training look like?
Weekly training is the commute (5 days, 18km each way, prevailing headwinds meaning that the homeward normalised power is at or above FTP), 2x20s on a wattbike twice a week at L4 (unless I've bottled it as per the original question), plus the occasional weekend ride of 250 - 300 TSS, maybe every third week in practice.0 -
What's your LTS? I only ask because weekly TSS in excess of 1000 seems very high. I haven't the time to train properly now, but back when I was putting in 16 hour weeks, I was only averaging around 700 TSS weekly, and that gave me a LTS of over 100.
My first thought is that you need to retest your FTP, as it's possibly underestimated. Are you maybe using a turbo derived FTP for all your riding? Every homeward commute at or above FTP is a big red flag, that should not be possible.
As to your question, I never give up on a session, but occasionally will change the session if it's not happening.0 -
What's your LTS? I only ask because weekly TSS in excess of 1000 seems very high. I haven't the time to train properly now, but back when I was putting in 16 hour weeks, I was only averaging around 700 TSS weekly, and that gave me a LTS of over 100.
My first thought is that you need to retest your FTP, as it's possibly underestimated. Are you maybe using a turbo derived FTP for all your riding? Every homeward commute at or above FTP is a big red flag, that should not be possible.
As to your question, I never give up on a session, but occasionally will change the session if it's not happening.
Exactly why I asked what his weekly training looks like, I'm no expert but the 1000 TSS figures seems way too high!!Trainer Road Blog: https://hitthesweetspot.home.blog/
Cycling blog: https://harderfasterlonger.wordpress.com/
Blog: https://supermurphtt2015.wordpress.com/
TCTP: https://supermurph.wordpress.com/0 -
What's your LTS? I only ask because weekly TSS in excess of 1000 seems very high. I haven't the time to train properly now, but back when I was putting in 16 hour weeks, I was only averaging around 700 TSS weekly, and that gave me a LTS of over 100.
My first thought is that you need to retest your FTP, as it's possibly underestimated. Are you maybe using a turbo derived FTP for all your riding? Every homeward commute at or above FTP is a big red flag, that should not be possible.
As to your question, I never give up on a session, but occasionally will change the session if it's not happening.
Exactly why I asked what his weekly training looks like, I'm no expert but the 1000 TSS figures seems way too high!!
I've raced for around 5 years, and I think my max TSS/wk was around 700-800 - totally unsustainable though!!
I'd love to see how the 1000 is broken down.0 -
Weekly training is the commute (5 days, 18km each way, prevailing headwinds meaning that the homeward normalised power is at or above FTP), 2x20s on a wattbike twice a week at L4 (unless I've bottled it as per the original question), plus the occasional weekend ride of 250 - 300 TSS, maybe every third week in practice.
Even on weeks where I commute 40km a day and then do another 30km or a 5 mile run at lunch along with a long ride at the weekend, I'd struggle to hit 1000 TSS. Where do you live for headwinds to occur that often and so harsh that your ride home gives an NP above FTP??0 -
Newish to trainingpeaks and I only recently got power outside (see lengthy thread on power meters for fixed gear bikes), so take the figure with a grain of salt, but LTS (assume same thing as CTL) as per trainingpeaks is 104.5 (as of yesterday).
Idealised Weekly TSS breakdown (without a w/e ride):
Inbound M-F commute: 60
Outbound M-F commute: 80
Tues/Thurs 2x20s: 90
That gets me to c. 880 TSS on the week (which incidentally is not far off last week's actual number of 882). Obviously some variability in practice.
My FTP figure is based on wattbike tests. Entirely possible (likely, on reflection) this results in overstated TSS's for the outdoor rides. Wattbike conditions are suboptimal (read: hot), and given that my Stages PM is closer to my legs in the drivetrain and the wattbike records a persistent 52/48 L/R (im)balance, that probably means the stages is overreporting by around 8% relative to the wattbike and maybe more if you factor in my legs' familiarity with the power demands of my commute.MoscowFlyer wrote:Where do you live for headwinds to occur that often and so harsh that your ride home gives an NP above FTP??
SW London, doesn't everyone on this forum?
But the key is the fixed gear, nowhere to hide, so you have to smash it to get home or you won't. Also the ride doesn't take an hour, so easy for NP to be over FTP. 0 -
Your outdoor FTP might be easily 10% higher than your indoor one. Quick sanity check is that 1 hour of FTP riding gives 100TSS. So if you are getting 80 TSS from a 18km ride at ''FTP'' something is not right.
Best do an outdoor test.
LTS (CTL) over 100 is fairly rare, there won't be many on here that high. Reason we are going on about it, is that unless you work out an accurate outdoor FTP, you might as well not bother with the Performance Manager stuff, because GIGO applies and the information is useless.0 -
Your outdoor FTP might be easily 10% higher than your indoor one. Quick sanity check is that 1 hour of FTP riding gives 100TSS. So if you are getting 80 TSS from a 18km ride at ''FTP'' something is not right.
Unless it's uphill, into a gale, and accordingly takes 48 minutes.
More seriously, I'm sure you're all right and appreciate the insight; is there some secret spot in SW London where you can conduct a reasonably accurate uninterrupted outdoor FTP test?0 -
Well if we ignore the TSS and we might as well if you are unsure about your levels - if you're regularly having to abandon sessions then it shows that whatever you are doing is too much.
You can't just smash every session - and riding fixed is no excuse. You don't have to kill yourself on the way in and way back.
Presumably your target is a long way away from now. Don't over cook yourself this early on. You need to back it down.0 -
Did an FTP test today on the WB, and sure enough, found a double handful of extra watts lying around. Someone must have dropped them. :? Interestingly Strava (unlike Trainingpeaks) appears to retroactively apply new FTPs to prior TSS and CTL-equivalents (not sure this is methodologically sound, but whatever), resulting in a Strava "fitness" of 88 (down from 95ish) and recalculating the commutes to a more normal-seeming 40-60 "training load".cougie wrote:You can't just smash every session - and riding fixed is no excuse. You don't have to kill yourself on the way in and way back.
Presumably your target is a long way away from now. Don't over cook yourself this early on. You need to back it down.
You're right of course, although in my experience, riding fixed is an excuse for everything, that's the beauty
Today's ride home looks to feature 24-41 mph headwinds (just like every day for the past two months), and 1.6mm of rain. Unfortunate that I've just wrecked my legs as these are excellent smashing conditions. 0 -
With that high a TSS and 18km 5 days a week at or above FTP I'm not at all surprised you have to stop a 2 x 20 which, on a turbo, has got to be the most soul-destroying session of all (I have to do it on the road for that reason).
'weeks are between 750-1100 depending on whether I get in a weekend ride' is the equivalent of 7.5 to 11 twenty five mile time trials a week ! Something wrong there and where is the recovery ?
In answer to the initial question, I used to get off but now tend to do easy Z2 with 10 secs every 5 mins up to the time the session would have taken.0
