Best way to train for long alpine climbs
piersj01
Posts: 32
Does it pay to actually simulate the long alpine climbs on a turbo, i.e. actually doing 1hr or so at a high percentage of FTP?
What percentage of FTP should you actually practice climbing 1hr long climbs at?
Thanks
What percentage of FTP should you actually practice climbing 1hr long climbs at?
Thanks
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Comments
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Whatever percentage you are planning on riding them at...0
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Whatever percentage you are planning on riding them at...
No I think 10% more0 -
If your FTP is correct, then I don't see how you can do it at FTP + 10%, given FTP is the max output you can sustain for 1 hour.
Rather than grind away for 1 hour, you are going to be better off trying to simulate the climb, so periodically increase the resistance and get out of the saddle or lower it and up the cadence. Some people suggest raising the front a bit to simulation the biomechanical position.0 -
I did a 16 week interval based plan to increase my hour ftp to help with my trip to thd alps...I can't say if it was any better than training at an hour close to ftp but I increased my hour ftp by 9% over 16 weeks and reduced my weight so I had a w/kg of 4.3 which certainly would have made a differance compared to having not done either.0
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Depends what you want to do at the top of the climbs. If you want to vomit, take a few photos once recovered, and ride back down, it's going to be a different % than if you're planning on doing 5 hours riding afterwards. And then it depends if you want to practise being able to accelerate for the last 15 minutes of a long climb, which will necessitate you holding back for the first 20-30 minutes.*Does it pay to actually simulate the long alpine climbs on a turbo, i.e. actually doing 1hr or so at a high percentage of FTP?
What percentage of FTP should you actually practice climbing 1hr long climbs at?
*Disclaimer: I've never ridden a turbo, nor do I know what my FTP is. But I do know how to pace myself up long alpine climbs reasonably well... on feel.0 -
I wouldn't bother propping my front wheel up to be honest. I also wouldn't suggest grinding away for an hour on a turbo. I would stick to intervals of various shapes and sizes as Ravenrider suggests.
Also note what Brian Trumpet says, if you are planning on doing more than say l'Alpe d'Huez then you will probably be riding at 80% of FTP. That said, if you grind a turbo at some % of FTP for an hour it will not be that different from the same effort on an alpine climb.BASI Nordic Ski Instructor
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I don't have much experience of turbo trainers apart from rehab use, but I spend quite a lot of time in the Alps.
I don't think it is possible to simulate climbing on a turbo well, and I find that british hills are so hard, that if you can manage hill reps here, the Alps are a breeze.
The technique is different; in the Alps, it is all about the endurance, so I try not to set off hard, but to finish with a sprint. If we are doing several cols in a day, again the pacing is even more critical. I try to look at climbbybike so I have some idea of the profile. For example, Iseran and Cormet de Roselend have flat middle sections for a recovery, Colle San Carlo is a slog all the way up, and the start is 17%, so taking it at a sustainable rate is the art.
So, I guess that didn't answer your question, but just riding somewhere hilly here and doing it over and over so you get a feel of climbing for several hours has worked better for me than a turbo trainer.0 -
I'd work backwards.
Let's say you want to climb using a 30tooth rear compact. And your comfortable cadence is between 70rpm and 90 rpm. (I struggle to go any lower). That's between 10kph-13kph. To achieve those speeds on a 8% 15km alpine climb, weighing 70kg's you'll need to be putting out between 200-250watts constantly for at least 1hr 10+ and there are plenty of longer climbs. You can't do this at threshold.
I'd did a whole winter of constant power work on turbo/flat and it paid dividends getting my legs used to tapping away at a relatively high power for 2-3 hrs without any freewheeling or stopping. Indeed it was this training that got me through the 7 day Haute Route Alps race.
The short hills in Britain are just too short - doing reps will give you some benefit of course but in the Alps your legs won't get a chance to recover until you head downhill.0 -
and I find that british hills are so hard, that if you can manage hill reps here, the Alps are a breeze.
Very true! Well I assuming the Mallorcan climbs are similar to the Alps. The likes of the big climbs there if you split them up into half mile chunks they would be considered easy climbs in the UK, it's just the length that they go on for. As you say the only way you can go wrong is forgetting the length of the climb and put in too much effort and blow up. In the UK the climb would normally be over before then!0 -
I tend to climb alps at high end of tempo or sweet spot, it's sustainable and repeatable. If you are using a HRM then it maps to just below lactate threshold heart rate.
For training, when I first did the etape I got a tacx VR trainer and used the real life videos to train on. If I compare my virtual Alpe d'Huez time with reality then they are within 60 seconds of each other, which proves the virtual trainer isn't far off the real world and will give you a good feeling for what a mountain climb actually feels like.
Over the last few years I've tended to do less of the virtual turbo stuff (though I still occasionally do) and just run with my normal training routine (long weekend rides, turbo interval stuff during the week). But I've now got the benefit of more mountain experience, prior to that the virtual turbo world was very useful IMHO.0 -
Get cyclops virtual training and actually virtually ride up the hills. It'll give you an idea and it's pretty bloody accurate.Insta: ATEnduranceCoaching
ABCC Cycling Coach0 -
Very true! Well I assuming the Mallorcan climbs are similar to the Alps. The likes of the big climbs there if you split them up into half mile chunks they would be considered easy climbs in the UK
There are plenty of steep, long climbs in the Alps.BASI Nordic Ski Instructor
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Three questions here.
Best way to train for long alpine climbs?
Its possible to over think this. I think the best way is to work towards being as generally fit a cyclist as possible with a mixture of endurance and higher intensity and not worry about specific training for alpine climbs. Done properly this will give you the ability to get up an alpine climb no problem as well as making you a more complete cyclist which is useful for the other 360 or so days a year when we're not in the Alps. I suspect that most of us need no more than this.
If you want to get more specific then longer intervals at or near FTP are your friend- anything to boost your FTP and more importantly allow you to work closer to it for longer.
Hills in Britain rarely take longer than 15-20 mins to get up even the longest and although 4 x 15 min hill repeats will do you a lot of good its not the same as pedalling up hill continuously for an hour. Something like a 25 mile TT is closer to going up an alpine climb at full gas so maybe have a go at some of those.
If you don't live near big hills then a long flat road route with few junctions, preferably into the wind is your friend- or a turbo. You can then do 45min-1 hr sessions at tempo, sweetspot or threshold. Try doing them at the end of a 2-3 hour ride so your body gets used to working hard when its already tired. You could also try doing a turbo session for an hour after you get in from a long ride- try turning the fan off to simulate France in the summer :twisted: As well as improving fitness long sessions at tempo or higher will get you used to how it feels to pedal at that intensity for a long time- the mental aspect is half the battle with alpine climbs.
As for pacing. For a time trial up Alpe-d'Huez then full gas at FTP. For longer rides with more than one climb then top of tempo- any harder then you will likely cook yourself at some point.
Does it pay to simulate long climbs on a turbo? Yes see above.
What % FTP for practise?
Tempo or sweet spot mainly. I'd keep 1 hr FTP efforts to a minimum as they're unpleasant and need more recovery.0 -
I have ridden in the Alps a number of times over the years and trained for them in various ways. Going against received wisdom I have always found that multiple hill repeat sessions on relatively short 10-12% hills have always worked out best for me.
That tells me everyone is different and what works for one doesn't always work for another based on a whole variety of factors. Personally I have always found long, grinding sessions on a turbo mind-numbingly boring and almost impossible to get anything useful from. I just use mine for short, sharp HIIT sessions if the weather is too bad to get out.0
