Are sky clean or not?
Comments
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"Letting the public decide" is what you do when the facts don't support your conclusions, but you can rely on the prejudices of your followers distort them for you.Re : The Vayer video.
Yesterday he posted that he'll put it back on the internet and "let the public decide". But the public can't decide, you need someone to explain to you what's happening. What you actually need is a few people who know what they're talking about to explain and then you can decide. Making educated decisions.
And FFS, he calls himself FestinaBoy, which tells you all you need know about who he's aiming his content at.Twitter: @RichN950 -
Where have I said he has a secret agenda? Vayer's agenda has always been perfectly clear - the promotion of Antoine Vayer. He wants to be a figure in cycling, and causing a doping sideshow is how he does it.interesting that you assume Vayer has some sort of secret agenda to "pull the wool over the eyes" of people, but you would never suspect Sky to do the same. Says it all about how biased you are.
Interesting theory. Do you have any evidence to back it up with?0 -
Interview with the man himself
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/jul/15/chris-froome-team-sky-video-tour-de-france?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Tweet
We need to forget medical confidence, eh, Ant?Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0 -
Yes. The film industry. When they release a clunker but one that has a pre-existing fan base they don't show previews to the media instead 'letting the audience decide for themselves". Usually the audience decide it's crap but by the time word spreads they've made their money.
Where have I said he has a secret agenda? Vayer's agenda has always been perfectly clear - the promotion of Antoine Vayer. He wants to be a figure in cycling, and causing a doping sideshow is how he does it.interesting that you assume Vayer has some sort of secret agenda to "pull the wool over the eyes" of people, but you would never suspect Sky to do the same. Says it all about how biased you are.
Interesting theory. Do you have any evidence to back it up with?Twitter: @RichN950 -
RichN95 wrote:He does. Which is why he can so easily pull the wool over the eyes of his uneducated disciples. It's the classic politician's trick of using statistics out of context to sway the public. You think he's an expert because he tells you he is and you don't question it because he tells you what you want to hear.
I once read a quote about politicians and statistics:
'A politician uses statistics like a drunk uses a lamppost - not for illumination, but a a support for something very unsteady and easily knocked down.'
Reminds me of this Vayer chump.It's only a bit of sport, Mun. Relax and enjoy the racing.0 -
I was going to come here and post a similar question today, the reason - because I'm relatively new to pro racing and have a lot of friends asking "do you think he's doping" etc, and tbh I don't feel qualified to answer that question with any authority.
Perhaps if I had posed the original question then I wouldn't be lambasted as a troll because iv been on the forum a while, any how, I'm glad someone has (regardless of their reasons for doing so) so I could read the arguments.
Funnily enough, the fact that the arguments do get kicked around properly and disected here - rather than everyone competing to shout loudest inside an echo chamber - is probably the answer to the OP's incredulous question of why everyone here doesn't think Sky are doping. Most of us suspect that there's funny business in the peloton still, but we're prepared to weigh it up against the farce that we endured previously and concede that it's miles better than it was previously, and unlikely that there's an institutional doping regime inside Sky.
Even if you assume that there's widespread doping, discussions like this are a good way of working out what symptoms you'd look for, and then testing your assumptions against the evidence, rather than defending your assumptions safe in the knowledge that they're essentially unfalsifiable. That's why the Froome power output is so funny - people have spent two years shouting about it, only to be faced with a reverse ferret when it unexpectedly proved to be falsifiable.
As another example of why there's a better class of debate around here, take Joel's insistence that magic motors could rewrite the laws of thermodynamics. Sure, we've wound it up to the nth degree for the sake of humour (to the point where I've massively misrepresented his position in the previous sentence), but the debate around why it's impossible, what the implications would be, and how to detect it has been illuminating and amusing. As a result, I'm fairly confident that motors would be detected if anyone was stupid enough to use one, but that running the odd spot-check is the best way to ensure nobody actually is that stupid...
In reference to what to say to your mates, the best I think any of us can say is 'I don't have a clue'. You might add that even the performances that get the Twitterati's knickers in a twist aren't a patch on the nonsense that used to happen, but ultimately you can't prove any particular rider or performance is definitely clean. The same might be said of many sports though - if football is immune to drugs because "it's all about skill" then why are more goals scored towards the end of the game?0 -
*applause*It's only a bit of sport, Mun. Relax and enjoy the racing.0
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interesting that you assume Vayer has some sort of secret agenda to "pull the wool over the eyes" of people, but you would never suspect Sky to do the same. Says it all about how biased you are.
Ha ha ha ha. Pot and kettle is the term I am looking for. I notice you are absent from all the other threads on here, are you interested in cycling at all?????? P***k0 -
Millar's silence over the last day or so has been deafening. Any sound bites?0
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Millar's silence over the last day or so has been deafening. Any sound bites?
Robert? David? Give us a clue. And why should they have an opinion thats relevant to the last couple of days racing?0 -
"The silence is deafening" is a little ruse used people who want to imply that someone has an opinion that they haven't actually expressed so that they can condemn them.Millar's silence over the last day or so has been deafening. Any sound bites?Twitter: @RichN950 -
Christ. What a troll.Napoleon, don't be jealous that I've been chatting online with babes all day. Besides, we both know that I'm training to be a cage fighter.0
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Christ. What a troll.
How do you feel about the power output of Froome yesterday? Quite high wasn't it?0 -
First mountain of the Tour, no climbs prior to it, plenty of pacemaking right from the bottom. All conducive to fast times and high power. It was about what i expected. Quintana did the same as Hamilton did in 2003. The difference was Hamilton had another 130km to ride (mostly solo).Christ. What a troll.
How do you feel about the power output of Froome yesterday? Quite high wasn't it?
The final climb tomorrow won't be as fast. I'd expect around 5.7-5.8w/kg.Twitter: @RichN950 -
First mountain of the Tour, no climbs prior to it, plenty of pacemaking right from the bottom. All conducive to fast times and high power. It was about what i expected. Quintana did the same as Hamilton did in 2003. The difference was Hamilton had another 130km to ride (mostly solo).Christ. What a troll.
How do you feel about the power output of Froome yesterday? Quite high wasn't it?
The final climb tomorrow won't be as fast. I'd expect around 5.7-5.8w/kg.
That about sums it up.Napoleon, don't be jealous that I've been chatting online with babes all day. Besides, we both know that I'm training to be a cage fighter.0 -
OK he's gone for a couple weeks.
I can give him the benefit of the doubt if he thinks what he thinks, but leaving posts that get a rise and not responding but moving onto more posts that get a rise is classic troll behaviour.
Can come back when the Tour is finished.0 -
OK he's gone for a couple weeks.
I can give him the benefit of the doubt if he thinks what he thinks, but leaving posts that get a rise and not responding but moving onto more posts that get a rise is classic troll behaviour.
Can come back when the Tour is finished.
Good work.
No doubt he's already starting a thread over at The Clinic about how we're all rabid Froome fanboisNapoleon, don't be jealous that I've been chatting online with babes all day. Besides, we both know that I'm training to be a cage fighter.0 -
Christ. What a troll.
How do you feel about the power output of Froome yesterday? Quite high wasn't it?
How the hell can you possibly know what Froome's power output was yesterday?
What is the expected power output of a grand tour contender on a stage with one climb as the first mtf of the race the day after a rest day?
Who else's power numbers would you class as suspicious from that stage without having any knowledge of them whatsoever?
When you say they were high, do you mean in absolute terms? In terms of watts per kilo? In terms of sustaining them for a given period? Compared to what? His previous number? Some mythical w/kg limit you've seen?
There's people here actually know a thing or two about athletic performance so it would be nice to define our terms"In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"
@gietvangent0 -
Look, to be absolutely clear, you can think what you want on here about doping and share it.
I give a lot of people stick, but it's as a member, not as a mod. Feel free to disagree.
What isn't good for the feel of the place are people who don't want to get into the discussion, but just get a rise out of people.0 -
OK he's gone for a couple weeks.
I can give him the benefit of the doubt if he thinks what he thinks, but leaving posts that get a rise and not responding but moving onto more posts that get a rise is classic troll behaviour.
Can come back when the Tour is finished.
Well im glad I typed all that out now..."In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"
@gietvangent0 -
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Haha sorry mate.
How's the Vanniewkerk book? Worth me ponying up to import it?
Slow going... Work is murdering me at the moment and I'm lacking the energy to sit with my dictionary translating on the train. Plus Gentse Feesten starts on Friday.
First couple of chapters are decent if run of the mill... Has car crash, can't play football anymore, stacks on weight, buys bike, joins club, rsces a bit etc"In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"
@gietvangent0 -
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Skylimit banned? Bu*ger.
That means he'll be starting another 5 Sky threads in the asylum tomorrow."Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.0 -
[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19653169#p19653169]disgruntledgoat[/url] wrote:OK he's gone for a couple weeks.
I can give him the benefit of the doubt if he thinks what he thinks, but leaving posts that get a rise and not responding but moving onto more posts that get a rise is classic troll behaviour.
Can come back when the Tour is finished.
Well im glad I typed all that out now...
If it's any consolation, it's still a useful list for anyone hearing the general background noise and wondering what questions a sensible analysis would have to include. Misses the point that you ought to make those predictions before gathering the evidence though, rather than defining your criteria after the fact. I'd mention the Texan Sharpshooter Fallacy, but we've had enough problems with Texans shooting up in cycling as it is...0 -
"The silence is deafening" is a little ruse used people who want to imply that someone has an opinion that they haven't actually expressed so that they can condemn them.Millar's silence over the last day or so has been deafening. Any sound bites?
Apologies. Been out training. Yeah david millar has been v v quiet. Normally one of the first to get some quotes out.0 -
I'm convinced CN only keep the clinic going because without it all those people would be loose in the community...
I once had some contact with Matt DiCaneo about a team he was trying to set up way back when, trying to get anything sensible out of him was like the clinic. Just strings of non sequiturs, rants and occasionally saying "the lies... The lies..." At the end of e mails."In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"
@gietvangent0 -
"The silence is deafening" is a little ruse used people who want to imply that someone has an opinion that they haven't actually expressed so that they can condemn them.Millar's silence over the last day or so has been deafening. Any sound bites?
Apologies. Been out training. Yeah david millar has been v v quiet. Normally one of the first to get some quotes out.
That'll be because he was in the race normally.0 -
[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19653201#p19653201]disgruntledgoat[/url] wrote:I'm convinced CN only keep the clinic going because without it all those people would be loose in the community...
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Well yeah, obviously!
Got fed up with every thread being derailed....0 -
ooh sorry - Jeroen Swart, on twitter
For those of us who don't know who he is, I assume it's this one......
Dr Swart is a sports physician and exercise physiologist at the Sports Science Institute in Newlands, Cape Town.
In addition to an undergraduate medical degree, he has a Masters Degree in Sports Medicine and a PhD in exercise physiology.
He currently divides his time between research, clinical sports medicine and high performance cycling. He heads up the Discovery High Performance Cycling Center at the Sports Science Institute of South Africa.
He has numerous publications in international scientific journals and his field of expertise include the application of training techniques specific to cycling, cycling biomechanics and the control of exercise by the brain.
I can't believe our friend missed these glaring points before he took a forum holiday:-
1. He's South African - Froome's fiancée is South African, Froome trains in South Africa and is also African himself. Therefore he's plainly linked to Froome so would make comments that support him.
2. He heads up Discovery High Performance Cycling Centre - Discovery was Lance's team, performance is a euthemism for doping and they have even put 'high' in the title in case it was too subtle. The guy is plainly involved in an outfit that promotes doping in cycling.
Jeez, how can you be taken seriously as a crusader against the doping machine when you miss so many obvious pointers?0
