Are sky clean or not?
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You've raised some excellent points, SkyLimit.0
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This one is rayjay.
Rayjay has a sense of humour. This one's just septic....a rare 100% loyal Pro Race poster. A poster boy for the community.0 -
Why does domination = doping?
Just curious as to why you would think that.
And by the way, who do you reckon will win tomorrow?0 -
There's a lot of evidence to the contrary.Froome is not a world class talent.
Like the fact that Sky were about to let him go before the 2011 vuelta?
You're obviously completely anti-Froome and convinced beyond any doubt he's doping batting away any arguments by those who contest your opinion. It's a pointless discussion.0 -
Lots of examples of that in the world.
There's a lot of evidence to the contrary.Froome is not a world class talent.
Like the fact that Sky were about to let him go before the 2011 vuelta?
The Beatles were rejected by Decca Records
Boca Juniors turned away Lionel Messi
Sheffield United said no to Maradonna
JK Rowling was rejected by almost everyone
Slumdog Millionaire almost went straight to video
Fred Astaire's casting review - "Can't sing, can't act, can dance a little"
Even in cycling, stage 8 winner Vuillermoz was out of cycling if it hadn't been for a personal sponsor.Twitter: @RichN950 -
Why does domination = doping?
Just curious as to why you would think that.
And by the way, who do you reckon will win tomorrow?
Ever since EPO got introduced into cycling, have anyone ever dominated like this clean? I highly doubt it. What's different this time?
I have no idea who wins tomorrow. Probably someone from Sky if they care enough.0 -
no need to now, just sit back and cover the moves. the masterplan is complete MOOO hahahahhahahahhahahaWhy does domination = doping?
Just curious as to why you would think that.
And by the way, who do you reckon will win tomorrow?
Ever since EPO got introduced into cycling, have anyone ever dominated like this clean? I highly doubt it. What's different this time?
I have no idea who wins tomorrow. Probably someone from Sky if they care enough.0 -
Why does domination = doping?
Just curious as to why you would think that.
And by the way, who do you reckon will win tomorrow?
Ever since EPO got introduced into cycling, have anyone ever dominated like this clean? I highly doubt it. What's different this time?
I have no idea who wins tomorrow. Probably someone from Sky if they care enough.
But before EPO was introduced, Mercx dominated in a way that Sky could only dream about.0 -
That's a loaded question. Because until about 2008 any team we would mentioned, you would rightly say - they are doped. So we are left with a very short period, for most of which Sky have been prominent.Why does domination = doping?
Just curious as to why you would think that.
And by the way, who do you reckon will win tomorrow?
Ever since EPO got introduced into cycling, have anyone ever dominated like this clean? I highly doubt it. What's different this time?
So how about this. HTC-Colombia. In the top two of CQ Ranking 2008-2011.
Now here's a question for you. When has a poster who post exclusively about a team doping on his first day after registration become a worthwhile poster? I think you won't last the week.Twitter: @RichN950 -
Wait for the "I'll see your logic and I'll raise you subjective bullsh1t".
Some people have been moaning about this sort of thing appearing on here during the tour, and now we've got a proper example the previous little attempts seem clever in comparison.0 -
I think they're clean but I strongly dislike many of their performance enhancing tactics that only rich teams are able to replicate eg sleeping in altitude tents, using motor homes at GTs etc etcWhat does this forum think?
Too many staff + riders have left Sky and kept quiet. There would be noise from ex-insiders by now if they were dirty, especially given they a) are a massive story and a big doping splash could get someone half a mill and b) they don't chase legally like Armstrong did, so less risk from speaking out.
It's often said by some people that Sky are like USPS/Discovery. This length of time since Armstrong 's first 'win', there was a decent stink from people who would have known. No such stink exists, suggesting a few ex-dopers being hired is comparable to O'Reilly etc is IMO a bit crazy!0 -
Ah, I see "The Truth" is back under a different name. They come out of the woodwork every year for the tour only. Like it's the only bike race ;-)0
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Proper EPO use is now obvious via the passport, so I believe we're back to pre-EPO level of upside from doping. With all the testing now (not much pre-EPO) why would you bother? It just doesn't add up to compare now to ArmstrongWhy does domination = doping?
Just curious as to why you would think that.
And by the way, who do you reckon will win tomorrow?
Ever since EPO got introduced into cycling, have anyone ever dominated like this clean? I highly doubt it. What's different this time?
I have no idea who wins tomorrow. Probably someone from Sky if they care enough.0 -
Being dropped late from GC group in 2012 Giro while riding it track weight + as part of track prep gives an indication of a decent mountain talent, doesn't it?Froome is the most obvious of them all. When they come out of nowhere like that it's always doping. And what about Thomas? When has he ever shown that he was a world class climber before?0 -
Froome is the most obvious of them all. When they come out of nowhere like that it's always doping. And what about Thomas? When has he ever shown that he was a world class climber before?
Individual stages aren't a great comparison - but check this from 2008:
http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/road/2008/tour08/?id=results/tour0817
Have a look who finished in 31st place on that stage and then who finished in 41st. Now as we've seen on another thread it's all down to context. But it certainly shows he didn't just come out of nowhere.0 -
This is why I love the classics. Eejits tend to just let us enjoy them.
Are they clean? Yes. Are the boundary pushers? Yes.It's not so much about winning, I just hate losing.0 -
What's the boundary pushing? This was also alluded to further back in the thread.
Skylimit - If Sky dope as well as you clearly believe, does it include nobbling Nibs and Bertie, and offering free 'shots' to Rolland and Gallopin?0 -
What does this forum think?
Why ask this when you quite clearly don't give a s**t what anyone else thinks?0 -
You can really see how Wiggins got sick of this, can't you?
Froome raises a good point though. What do these people want from him? He points out holes in the OOC schedule, he engages with CIRC, he praises the efforts of anti doping, calls for nighttime testing.
If Sky are on a massive, organised doping programme then you must also be doubting the utility of the bio passport, all the testing etc etc.
So why bother? What part of cycling brings you enjoyment?
The Tour really gets me crazy, it's like this every year."In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"
@gietvangent0 -
Why does domination = doping?
Just curious as to why you would think that.
And by the way, who do you reckon will win tomorrow?
Ever since EPO got introduced into cycling, have anyone ever dominated like this clean? I highly doubt it. What's different this time?
I have no idea who wins tomorrow. Probably someone from Sky if they care enough.
The dominating thing is nonsense though. All the other teams that U.S. Postal dominated were on EPO. So unless you think Sky are doing something that no-one else is then I think your point is incorrect.0 -
[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19652133#p19652133]disgruntledgoat[/url] wrote:You can really see how Wiggins got sick of this, can't you?
Froome raises a good point though. What do these people want from him? He points out holes in the OOC schedule, he engages with CIRC, he praises the efforts of anti doping, calls for nighttime testing.
If Sky are on a massive, organised doping programme then you must also be doubting the utility of the bio passport, all the testing etc etc.
So why bother? What part of cycling brings you enjoyment?
The Tour really gets me crazy, it's like this every year.
I don't remember it being like this last year. Or in 2011 for that matter0 -
That's not Pluto! New images revealed as Team Sky's evil plan goes to defcon4.
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[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19652140#p19652140]TakeTheHighRoad[/url] wrote:[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19652133#p19652133]disgruntledgoat[/url] wrote:You can really see how Wiggins got sick of this, can't you?
Froome raises a good point though. What do these people want from him? He points out holes in the OOC schedule, he engages with CIRC, he praises the efforts of anti doping, calls for nighttime testing.
If Sky are on a massive, organised doping programme then you must also be doubting the utility of the bio passport, all the testing etc etc.
So why bother? What part of cycling brings you enjoyment?
The Tour really gets me crazy, it's like this every year.
I don't remember it being like this last year. Or in 2011 for that matter
Sorry, what I mean is every year we get manufactured outrage from people who can't be bothered to wait for an actual scandal to show the world how much they care about doping for one month a year in 140 characters. That they get to train their guns on Sky for whatever reason only makes it worse. You are right though, we didn't get it in 2011 when Andy Schleck knocked 3 minutes into everyone on his own and we didn't get it last year when Nibali had an absolute stormer. So is the implication that Sky only dope in years when they can be bothered to win the Tour, or that nobody else does it and so we can definitely believe what we see when they don't have a rider competing for the overall?
I'm not even a particular fan of Froome or Sky, I find them a bit dull and worthy, but for (little) Pete's sake this is ridiculous."In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"
@gietvangent0 -
Can we just rename this topic to
"Is SkyLimit a troll or not"
And then despite the fact that we already know what we think about this debate it nevertheless0 -
I haven't read the previous pages but I'll give my two pence worth.
I would be amazed if there was systemic doping within Team Sky. However, I'm not naive enough to think that none of the individual riders could be doping.
As for Froome himself, I haven't seen any compelling evidence of doping and until there is you just have to assume that his performances are genuine.0 -
In a parallel universe, people who screamed 'mutant' for 2 years about 5.6 w/kg on Ventoux (hahahahaha) are confused that others don't take them seriously. It's very funny....a rare 100% loyal Pro Race poster. A poster boy for the community.0
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Anybody who has followed cycling through the 90s and into the Armstrong era is naturally always going to ask questions about performance. But it seems there's a group who just seem so hell bent on proving that Sky/Froome/anyone who does well are doping that you wonder what they bother following the sport? They don't look at it objectively, the case seems to be closed already in their eyes. They seem to try and make the numbers (watts etc) fit their argument. The cycling podcast pointed out that Nibali put out 550 watts on the Huy for 1-2 mins whereas there's been this hoopla over Froome raising his output to 650 watts on Ventoux for 40 seconds.
I can't say definitively that Sky and Froome are clean but I can make an informed contextual decision given their ongoing anti doping stance and their upfront proactive attitude. Brailsford has pretty much staked his career on an anti-doping ethos right from British cycling days and his dealings in helping David Millar. Froome (as has been mentioned above) has requested night time testing and called for increased testing at volcano altitude camps, previously non-existent. For Sky to be running a massive doping regime in the post Armstrong era just seems highly far fetched to me but then there'll always be those who question them, wishing to be proved right.
Brailsfords mindset and the attitude of riders like Froome, G Thomas and Wiggins is good enough for me right now.0 -
As has been suggested elsewhere - if someone had said to Froome before the start of stage today;
" Well today Chris, you're only going to beat one-day man / puncheur Tony Gallopin by 2.22 on a viscious long climb. As for Robert Gesink, who's career looked in freefall a year or 2 back, he will be held up to only a 90 sec loss by his dodgy ticker. And Warren Barguil, for all his talent, is going to have a horrible off and look out of it, only to come in around 3 minutes down."
....He'd have probably been slightly concerned....
Todays' stage was over 4 hours long. He won by 1 minute. If someone wins a marathon in 2.10 by 30 seconds it would be seen as very normal. People saying this is dominance from Sky / Froome need a history lesson and logic lesson.
By all accounts Astana didnt even recce the stage and seriously underestimated the climb. Quintana IMO looks less strong than he did 2 yrs ago - maybe a bit heavier even (although that is purely subjective).0 -
According to the zoomers and spoonbenders, Froome's numbers might be achievable by human means, just not by a human Froome. Somewhat lost in the noise is the startling fact that Froome destroyed an elite field with a human performance, shredding the 'everyone is doping' argument.
No wonder the cretins in the clinic are confused....a rare 100% loyal Pro Race poster. A poster boy for the community.0 -
[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19652133#p19652133]disgruntledgoat[/url] wrote:You can really see how Wiggins got sick of this, can't you?
Froome raises a good point though. What do these people want from him? He points out holes in the OOC schedule, he engages with CIRC, he praises the efforts of anti doping, calls for nighttime testing.
If Sky are on a massive, organised doping programme then you must also be doubting the utility of the bio passport, all the testing etc etc.
I'm not saying Sky are clean or dirty but did riders not submit to CIRC that it was still possible to get away with microdosing.0
