Join the Labour Party and save your country!

bompington

rick_chasey said:

£3k a year after travel. The guy was in his mid-20s!

Back in the 80s I used to have my dream job as an outdoor instructor. I loved it with a passion. It paid £80 a week, rising to the dizzy heghts of £90 when I acquired the exalted title of Senior Instructor. That was for a working week that averaged over 60 hours in the busy season (something over 6 months of the year). One particularly busy summer I worked 17 days on the trot, most of them over 10 hours on.

Surprisingly enough, I'm not doing that job any more. The crunch came when I got married: Mrs Bomp was then a student, and someone had to earn a living. So I went and found a job that paid a living wage.

I'll save you all any more droning on about what it was like back in my day, 15% mortgage interest on a £10K salary, you young folk don't realise how lucky bla bla bla...

rick_chasey

In fairness, I have to use some of my friends as example as I've done OK...

TheBigBean

rick_chasey said:

Example; friend of mine struggled to get work; eventually got the job of his dreams working in the London zoo acquarium.

It would have been a bad year for the dream as it is now closed. Although perhaps when it reopens he could have had an even bigger dream job.

bompington

rick_chasey said:

I guess not. I just don't know why so many people in the UK almost *want* expensive train fares when the rest of Europe doesn't.

People need to get around, especially when the gov't seems to deliberately stoke up house prices year-on-year.

The main problem here, of course, is the super-concentration of everything in London. There's no doubt that London generates a lot of the UK's wealth, but if the government directs tax income to cut train fares for SE commuters then that just adds to the incentive to push everything into London. And I would guess that (on average - fish feeders and the like excepted) train commuters are wealthier than average.

Here's an article comparing car and train commuting costs: of course it's a whole lot more complicated than that once you start considering the infrastructure costs, tax etc.

Hang on though - we should all simply be cyclng to work! Problem solved.

Stevo_666

bompington said:

rick_chasey said:

I guess not. I just don't know why so many people in the UK almost *want* expensive train fares when the rest of Europe doesn't.

People need to get around, especially when the gov't seems to deliberately stoke up house prices year-on-year.

The main problem here, of course, is the super-concentration of everything in London. There's no doubt that London generates a lot of the UK's wealth, but if the government directs tax income to cut train fares for SE commuters then that just adds to the incentive to push everything into London. And I would guess that (on average - fish feeders and the like excepted) train commuters are wealthier than average.

Here's an article comparing car and train commuting costs: of course it's a whole lot more complicated than that once you start considering the infrastructure costs, tax etc.

Hang on though - we should all simply be cyclng to work! Problem solved.

Agreed re impact of cutting fares into London.

I try to cycle in at least a couple of times a week to be fair and my train tube bill is usually max £30 a week as a result. Although I live in that 'goldilocks zone' where it's far enough to make it worthwhile getting togged up etc to ride and close enough to make it rideable given work hours etc. Rick may have a different view given where he lives.

TheBigBean

The best form of commuting in London is walking to work. Everything else is about finding the least irritating option.

rick_chasey

TheBigBean said:

The best form of commuting in London is walking to work. Everything else is about finding the least irritating option.

FWIW I found cycling to work meant I could really enjoy my cycling at the weekend without having to take time out of my day to get fit for it, as it made me plenty fit enough.

kingstongraham

bompington said:

rick_chasey said:

I guess not. I just don't know why so many people in the UK almost *want* expensive train fares when the rest of Europe doesn't.

People need to get around, especially when the gov't seems to deliberately stoke up house prices year-on-year.

The main problem here, of course, is the super-concentration of everything in London. There's no doubt that London generates a lot of the UK's wealth, but if the government directs tax income to cut train fares for SE commuters then that just adds to the incentive to push everything into London. And I would guess that (on average - fish feeders and the like excepted) train commuters are wealthier than average.

Here's an article comparing car and train commuting costs: of course it's a whole lot more complicated than that once you start considering the infrastructure costs, tax etc.

Hang on though - we should all simply be cyclng to work! Problem solved.

If those car costs include "fuel, tax, insurance, car loan payments and maintenance costs", where are they parking in London?

TheBigBean

rick_chasey said:

TheBigBean said:

The best form of commuting in London is walking to work. Everything else is about finding the least irritating option.

FWIW I found cycling to work meant I could really enjoy my cycling at the weekend without having to take time out of my day to get fit for it, as it made me plenty fit enough.

I think bike commutes should be measured by the longest stretch without traffic lights. I used to be at the dizzy lengths of about 800m, but I think these days I am down to about 300m, so it doesn't provide much exercise.

rick_chasey

Should live in SW then . Can bomb down embankment.

Stevo_666

kingstongraham said:

bompington said:

rick_chasey said:

I guess not. I just don't know why so many people in the UK almost *want* expensive train fares when the rest of Europe doesn't.

People need to get around, especially when the gov't seems to deliberately stoke up house prices year-on-year.

The main problem here, of course, is the super-concentration of everything in London. There's no doubt that London generates a lot of the UK's wealth, but if the government directs tax income to cut train fares for SE commuters then that just adds to the incentive to push everything into London. And I would guess that (on average - fish feeders and the like excepted) train commuters are wealthier than average.

Here's an article comparing car and train commuting costs: of course it's a whole lot more complicated than that once you start considering the infrastructure costs, tax etc.

Hang on though - we should all simply be cyclng to work! Problem solved.

If those car costs include "fuel, tax, insurance, car loan payments and maintenance costs", where are they parking in London?

Quite a lot of offices have car parking. On the relatively few occasions when I drive in, I stick mine in our underground car park.

Stevo_666

TheBigBean said:

The best form of commuting in London is walking to work. Everything else is about finding the least irritating option.

Not sure about that - some of the distances can make walking pretty time consuming (and foot aching). When the tube strikes are on it can take 45 mins to walk from my train terminal to my office on the opposite side of zone 1, whereas my whole bike ride from a little outside the London postcodes to the office takes under an hour.

rjsterry

You're slowly turning into Greg66. Soon you'll be taking up triathlons.

TheBigBean

Stevo_666 said:

TheBigBean said:

The best form of commuting in London is walking to work. Everything else is about finding the least irritating option.

Not sure about that - some of the distances can make walking pretty time consuming (and foot aching). When the tube strikes are on it can take 45 mins to walk from my train terminal to my office on the opposite side of zone 1, whereas my whole bike ride from a little outside the London postcodes to the office takes under an hour.

Try a 10min walk to work.

john80

TheBigBean said:

rick_chasey said:

TheBigBean said:

rick_chasey said:

I think it is fairly obvious that the number of people having to commute is a consequence of other poor governance decisions and the subsidies are there to mitigate some of those problems.

I don't think this is obvious at all. Farms are not able to employ local workers, because the farm workers are priced out of the local housing. So every morning, farm workers make their way from the outskirts of towns/cities to work on farms whilst the relatively wealthy people living near the farms make their way to the cities to do the better paid jobs. The latter frequently do so, by car and then subsidised trains. Is it right they should get a subsidy for a lifestyle choice?

Sorry, I don't quite understand. If you can't afford to live in the city or town you work in you have to commute - particularly if other jobs are not available. That is the same if you work on a farm or in an office.

Why are you treating farms differently to firms who are based in cities?

The cheapest housing is in towns/cities hence why farm workers don't live near farms.

This must be a very southern England thing. If you asked a Cumbrian farm worker if they take public transport to get to their work they would literally still be laughing. Are there many farms with good train links within walking distance. Do any of these public transport options get to the farm at first light when most farms start work.

kingstongraham

Stevo_666 said:

kingstongraham said:

bompington said:

rick_chasey said:

I guess not. I just don't know why so many people in the UK almost *want* expensive train fares when the rest of Europe doesn't.

People need to get around, especially when the gov't seems to deliberately stoke up house prices year-on-year.

The main problem here, of course, is the super-concentration of everything in London. There's no doubt that London generates a lot of the UK's wealth, but if the government directs tax income to cut train fares for SE commuters then that just adds to the incentive to push everything into London. And I would guess that (on average - fish feeders and the like excepted) train commuters are wealthier than average.

Here's an article comparing car and train commuting costs: of course it's a whole lot more complicated than that once you start considering the infrastructure costs, tax etc.

Hang on though - we should all simply be cyclng to work! Problem solved.

If those car costs include "fuel, tax, insurance, car loan payments and maintenance costs", where are they parking in London?

Quite a lot of offices have car parking. On the relatively few occasions when I drive in, I stick mine in our underground car park.

Same here, but not for everyone (not for me, even though I never drive in). Not many Citroen C2s in there.

Should that be included on your P11d? Would be quite a BiK in central London if you were to use it every day.

TheBigBean

john80 said:

This must be a very southern England thing. If you asked a Cumbrian farm worker if they take public transport to get to their work they would literally still be laughing. Are there many farms with good train links within walking distance. Do any of these public transport options get to the farm at first light when most farms start work.

I think they either get in by minibus or drive. Same as Cumbria I would guess. I would imagine the suburbs of Kendal, Penrith and Carlisle supply a lot of the labour for the Lake District. Whereas the nice houses in the Lake District will be occupied by people who work in Kendal, Penrith, Carlisle and further afield.

john80

TheBigBean said:

john80 said:

This must be a very southern England thing. If you asked a Cumbrian farm worker if they take public transport to get to their work they would literally still be laughing. Are there many farms with good train links within walking distance. Do any of these public transport options get to the farm at first light when most farms start work.

I think they either get in by minibus or drive. Same as Cumbria I would guess. I would imagine the suburbs of Kendal, Penrith and Carlisle supply a lot of the labour for the Lake District. Whereas the nice houses in the Lake District will be occupied by people who work in Kendal, Penrith, Carlisle and further afield.

You were banging on about all this public transport that farm workers were having to use a minute ago. Your average Cumbria farm employs one or two people if any at all other than the owners. They are not exactly growing fruit and veg up in the North here and need seasonal staff. Your argument is illogical to put it politely.

Stevo_666

kingstongraham said:

Stevo_666 said:

kingstongraham said:

bompington said:

rick_chasey said:

I guess not. I just don't know why so many people in the UK almost *want* expensive train fares when the rest of Europe doesn't.

People need to get around, especially when the gov't seems to deliberately stoke up house prices year-on-year.

The main problem here, of course, is the super-concentration of everything in London. There's no doubt that London generates a lot of the UK's wealth, but if the government directs tax income to cut train fares for SE commuters then that just adds to the incentive to push everything into London. And I would guess that (on average - fish feeders and the like excepted) train commuters are wealthier than average.

Here's an article comparing car and train commuting costs: of course it's a whole lot more complicated than that once you start considering the infrastructure costs, tax etc.

Hang on though - we should all simply be cyclng to work! Problem solved.

If those car costs include "fuel, tax, insurance, car loan payments and maintenance costs", where are they parking in London?

Quite a lot of offices have car parking. On the relatively few occasions when I drive in, I stick mine in our underground car park.

Same here, but not for everyone (not for me, even though I never drive in). Not many Citroen C2s in there.

Should that be included on your P11d? Would be quite a BiK in central London if you were to use it every day.

Here you go:
https://gov.uk/expenses-and-benefits-parking-spaces/whats-exempt

Stevo_666

TheBigBean said:

Stevo_666 said:

TheBigBean said:

The best form of commuting in London is walking to work. Everything else is about finding the least irritating option.

Not sure about that - some of the distances can make walking pretty time consuming (and foot aching). When the tube strikes are on it can take 45 mins to walk from my train terminal to my office on the opposite side of zone 1, whereas my whole bike ride from a little outside the London postcodes to the office takes under an hour.

Try a 10min walk to work.

Not really an option for me given I don't fancy living in central/inner London and the jobs I can do are nearly all in central London.

kingstongraham

Stevo_666 said:

kingstongraham said:

Stevo_666 said:

kingstongraham said:

bompington said:

rick_chasey said:

I guess not. I just don't know why so many people in the UK almost *want* expensive train fares when the rest of Europe doesn't.

People need to get around, especially when the gov't seems to deliberately stoke up house prices year-on-year.

The main problem here, of course, is the super-concentration of everything in London. There's no doubt that London generates a lot of the UK's wealth, but if the government directs tax income to cut train fares for SE commuters then that just adds to the incentive to push everything into London. And I would guess that (on average - fish feeders and the like excepted) train commuters are wealthier than average.

Here's an article comparing car and train commuting costs: of course it's a whole lot more complicated than that once you start considering the infrastructure costs, tax etc.

Hang on though - we should all simply be cyclng to work! Problem solved.

If those car costs include "fuel, tax, insurance, car loan payments and maintenance costs", where are they parking in London?

Quite a lot of offices have car parking. On the relatively few occasions when I drive in, I stick mine in our underground car park.

Same here, but not for everyone (not for me, even though I never drive in). Not many Citroen C2s in there.

Should that be included on your P11d? Would be quite a BiK in central London if you were to use it every day.

Here you go:
https://gov.uk/expenses-and-benefits-parking-spaces/whats-exempt

Bit weird, isn't it? Could understand it if it was a car park available to all employees (like at a factory in the middle of nowhere).

War on drivers my arse.

TheBigBean

john80 said:

TheBigBean said:

john80 said:

This must be a very southern England thing. If you asked a Cumbrian farm worker if they take public transport to get to their work they would literally still be laughing. Are there many farms with good train links within walking distance. Do any of these public transport options get to the farm at first light when most farms start work.

I think they either get in by minibus or drive. Same as Cumbria I would guess. I would imagine the suburbs of Kendal, Penrith and Carlisle supply a lot of the labour for the Lake District. Whereas the nice houses in the Lake District will be occupied by people who work in Kendal, Penrith, Carlisle and further afield.

You were banging on about all this public transport that farm workers were having to use a minute ago. Your average Cumbria farm employs one or two people if any at all other than the owners. They are not exactly growing fruit and veg up in the North here and need seasonal staff. Your argument is illogical to put it politely.

I was "banging on" about the commuters in the SE being subsidised to commute by train whilst the farm workers couldn't afford to live near the farms. I didn't say the farm workers came in by public transport because clearly that would be challenging. The only difference in Cumbria is that the commuters to towns/cities are not subsidised to commute by train.

TheBigBean

Stevo_666 said:

TheBigBean said:

Stevo_666 said:

TheBigBean said:

The best form of commuting in London is walking to work. Everything else is about finding the least irritating option.

Not sure about that - some of the distances can make walking pretty time consuming (and foot aching). When the tube strikes are on it can take 45 mins to walk from my train terminal to my office on the opposite side of zone 1, whereas my whole bike ride from a little outside the London postcodes to the office takes under an hour.

Try a 10min walk to work.

Not really an option for me given I don't fancy living in central/inner London and the jobs I can do are nearly all in central London.

Then you need to choose the least irritating other option.

surrey_commuter

kingstongraham said:

Stevo_666 said:

kingstongraham said:

Stevo_666 said:

kingstongraham said:

bompington said:

rick_chasey said:

I guess not. I just don't know why so many people in the UK almost *want* expensive train fares when the rest of Europe doesn't.

People need to get around, especially when the gov't seems to deliberately stoke up house prices year-on-year.

The main problem here, of course, is the super-concentration of everything in London. There's no doubt that London generates a lot of the UK's wealth, but if the government directs tax income to cut train fares for SE commuters then that just adds to the incentive to push everything into London. And I would guess that (on average - fish feeders and the like excepted) train commuters are wealthier than average.

Here's an article comparing car and train commuting costs: of course it's a whole lot more complicated than that once you start considering the infrastructure costs, tax etc.

Hang on though - we should all simply be cyclng to work! Problem solved.

If those car costs include "fuel, tax, insurance, car loan payments and maintenance costs", where are they parking in London?

Quite a lot of offices have car parking. On the relatively few occasions when I drive in, I stick mine in our underground car park.

Same here, but not for everyone (not for me, even though I never drive in). Not many Citroen C2s in there.

Should that be included on your P11d? Would be quite a BiK in central London if you were to use it every day.

Here you go:
https://gov.uk/expenses-and-benefits-parking-spaces/whats-exempt

Bit weird, isn't it? Could understand it if it was a car park available to all employees (like at a factory in the middle of nowhere).

War on drivers my censored .

Congestion charge does the job in London

Stevo_666

surrey_commuter said:

kingstongraham said:

Stevo_666 said:

kingstongraham said:

Stevo_666 said:

kingstongraham said:

bompington said:

rick_chasey said:

I guess not. I just don't know why so many people in the UK almost *want* expensive train fares when the rest of Europe doesn't.

People need to get around, especially when the gov't seems to deliberately stoke up house prices year-on-year.

The main problem here, of course, is the super-concentration of everything in London. There's no doubt that London generates a lot of the UK's wealth, but if the government directs tax income to cut train fares for SE commuters then that just adds to the incentive to push everything into London. And I would guess that (on average - fish feeders and the like excepted) train commuters are wealthier than average.

Here's an article comparing car and train commuting costs: of course it's a whole lot more complicated than that once you start considering the infrastructure costs, tax etc.

Hang on though - we should all simply be cyclng to work! Problem solved.

If those car costs include "fuel, tax, insurance, car loan payments and maintenance costs", where are they parking in London?

Quite a lot of offices have car parking. On the relatively few occasions when I drive in, I stick mine in our underground car park.

Same here, but not for everyone (not for me, even though I never drive in). Not many Citroen C2s in there.

Should that be included on your P11d? Would be quite a BiK in central London if you were to use it every day.

Here you go:
https://gov.uk/expenses-and-benefits-parking-spaces/whats-exempt

Bit weird, isn't it? Could understand it if it was a car park available to all employees (like at a factory in the middle of nowhere).

War on drivers my censored .

Congestion charge does the job in London

I just drive round the edge, fortunately the office is just outside and there's a handy route that only adds 2 or 3 miles onto the direct route.

ULEZ extension to North and South Circular will open up another battle front. Blanket 20 mph zones where some are clearly not needed are also a pretty aggressive tactic.

Stevo_666

TheBigBean said:

Stevo_666 said:

TheBigBean said:

Stevo_666 said:

TheBigBean said:

The best form of commuting in London is walking to work. Everything else is about finding the least irritating option.

Not sure about that - some of the distances can make walking pretty time consuming (and foot aching). When the tube strikes are on it can take 45 mins to walk from my train terminal to my office on the opposite side of zone 1, whereas my whole bike ride from a little outside the London postcodes to the office takes under an hour.

Try a 10min walk to work.

Not really an option for me given I don't fancy living in central/inner London and the jobs I can do are nearly all in central London.

Then you need to choose the least irritating other option.

I already have, ta.

rick_chasey

FWIW, *real* train prices have risen 20% from '95 to 2018.

So whatever they're subsidising...

TheBigBean

rick_chasey said:

FWIW, *real* train prices have risen 20% from '95 to 2018.

So whatever they're subsidising...

They're less subsidised, per passenger, than they used to be. The plan is to continue to decrease the subsidy hence the annual increase above inflation and the annual complaints.

rick_chasey

They are stunningly expensive.

rick_chasey

Is official, Northern rail is being nationalised.