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  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 43,782 Lives Here
    Stevo_666 said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    Shout out to scandal ridden BoJo who has declared Tories will not cut Corp tax from 19%-17% in a move that will, accordin g to him "save £6bn which can be invested in 'domestic priorities' such as the NHS".

    Alternatively, as many of you on here claim; everything Boris say is a lie, in which case not cutting the rate wont save £6bn in tax revenue and he's just trying to buy votes ;)
    Come on mate, when have I said that?
    So you don't think Boris tells fibs then?
    I think he lies when it suits him and he has a propensity to fib, but I'm not so binary that I therefore think 100% of what he says is a lie. This should be very obvious.
  • Stevo_666Stevo_666 Posts: 36,240

    Stevo_666 said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    Shout out to scandal ridden BoJo who has declared Tories will not cut Corp tax from 19%-17% in a move that will, accordin g to him "save £6bn which can be invested in 'domestic priorities' such as the NHS".

    Alternatively, as many of you on here claim; everything Boris say is a lie, in which case not cutting the rate wont save £6bn in tax revenue and he's just trying to buy votes ;)
    Come on mate, when have I said that?
    So you don't think Boris tells fibs then?
    I think he lies when it suits him and he has a propensity to fib, but I'm not so binary that I therefore think 100% of what he says is a lie. This should be very obvious.
    What do you think about this particular case?
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  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 43,782 Lives Here
    Stevo_666 said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    Shout out to scandal ridden BoJo who has declared Tories will not cut Corp tax from 19%-17% in a move that will, accordin g to him "save £6bn which can be invested in 'domestic priorities' such as the NHS".

    Alternatively, as many of you on here claim; everything Boris say is a lie, in which case not cutting the rate wont save £6bn in tax revenue and he's just trying to buy votes ;)
    Come on mate, when have I said that?
    So you don't think Boris tells fibs then?
    I think he lies when it suits him and he has a propensity to fib, but I'm not so binary that I therefore think 100% of what he says is a lie. This should be very obvious.
    What do you think about this particular case?
    I imagine if he's announcing that then it will be part of the manifesto. Heard something the other day that said something like the majority of things promised in manifestos are delivered by victorious parties, so I guess I believe that he intends to do what he said re-corporate tax.
  • pblakeneypblakeney Posts: 9,813
    edited 18 November

    Stevo_666 said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    Shout out to scandal ridden BoJo who has declared Tories will not cut Corp tax from 19%-17% in a move that will, accordin g to him "save £6bn which can be invested in 'domestic priorities' such as the NHS".

    Alternatively, as many of you on here claim; everything Boris say is a lie, in which case not cutting the rate wont save £6bn in tax revenue and he's just trying to buy votes ;)
    Come on mate, when have I said that?
    So you don't think Boris tells fibs then?
    I think he lies when it suits him and he has a propensity to fib, but I'm not so binary that I therefore think 100% of what he says is a lie. This should be very obvious.
    What do you think about this particular case?
    I imagine if he's announcing that then it will be part of the manifesto. Heard something the other day that said something like the majority of things promised in manifestos are delivered by victorious parties, so I guess I believe that he intends to do what he said re-corporate tax.
    That quote has just made my day! 😂😂😂
    How can losing parties manage to implement their policies?
    Nice wordplay.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • Stevo_666Stevo_666 Posts: 36,240

    Stevo_666 said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    Shout out to scandal ridden BoJo who has declared Tories will not cut Corp tax from 19%-17% in a move that will, accordin g to him "save £6bn which can be invested in 'domestic priorities' such as the NHS".

    Alternatively, as many of you on here claim; everything Boris say is a lie, in which case not cutting the rate wont save £6bn in tax revenue and he's just trying to buy votes ;)
    Come on mate, when have I said that?
    So you don't think Boris tells fibs then?
    I think he lies when it suits him and he has a propensity to fib, but I'm not so binary that I therefore think 100% of what he says is a lie. This should be very obvious.
    What do you think about this particular case?
    I imagine if he's announcing that then it will be part of the manifesto. Heard something the other day that said something like the majority of things promised in manifestos are delivered by victorious parties, so I guess I believe that he intends to do what he said re-corporate tax.
    As has been pointed out, nice wordplay.

    But more specifically, do you think he is telling the truth about the £6bn extra tax revenue that would result from not cutting the tax rate?
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  • rjsterryrjsterry Posts: 15,245
    Stevo_666 said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    Shout out to scandal ridden BoJo who has declared Tories will not cut Corp tax from 19%-17% in a move that will, accordin g to him "save £6bn which can be invested in 'domestic priorities' such as the NHS".

    Alternatively, as many of you on here claim; everything Boris say is a lie, in which case not cutting the rate wont save £6bn in tax revenue and he's just trying to buy votes ;)
    Come on mate, when have I said that?
    So you don't think Boris tells fibs then?
    Let's just say he's unreliable.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    1980s BSA 10sp

    Liberal metropolitan, remoaner, traitor, "sympathiser", etc.
  • rjsterryrjsterry Posts: 15,245
    edited 18 November
    Stevo_666 said:

    I find the whole tory rhetoric around gov't spending really interesting. Labour has clearly won this particular argument.

    Seem to recall some Times article about how the public is pretty sceptical about politicians spending claims so you can argue either way.
    Certainly at this stage in an election campaign. Not sure it's necessarily that Labour have won that argument size much as the Tories have just realised that everyone (apart from Stevo_666, obviously ;)) is fairly hacked off.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    1980s BSA 10sp

    Liberal metropolitan, remoaner, traitor, "sympathiser", etc.
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 43,782 Lives Here
    edited 18 November
    Stevo_666 said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    Shout out to scandal ridden BoJo who has declared Tories will not cut Corp tax from 19%-17% in a move that will, accordin g to him "save £6bn which can be invested in 'domestic priorities' such as the NHS".

    Alternatively, as many of you on here claim; everything Boris say is a lie, in which case not cutting the rate wont save £6bn in tax revenue and he's just trying to buy votes ;)
    Come on mate, when have I said that?
    So you don't think Boris tells fibs then?
    I think he lies when it suits him and he has a propensity to fib, but I'm not so binary that I therefore think 100% of what he says is a lie. This should be very obvious.
    What do you think about this particular case?
    I imagine if he's announcing that then it will be part of the manifesto. Heard something the other day that said something like the majority of things promised in manifestos are delivered by victorious parties, so I guess I believe that he intends to do what he said re-corporate tax.
    As has been pointed out, nice wordplay.

    But more specifically, do you think he is telling the truth about the £6bn extra tax revenue that would result from not cutting the tax rate?
    It's the same figure HRMC forecast, so presumably that's where it comes from. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/28/uk-corporation-tax-cut-to-cost-billions-more-than-thought
  • kingstongrahamkingstongraham Posts: 7,321
    edited 18 November
    Stevo_666 said:

    I find the whole tory rhetoric around gov't spending really interesting. Labour has clearly won this particular argument.

    Seem to recall some Times article about how the public is pretty sceptical about politicians spending claims so you can argue either way.
    I think it was around cutting taxes at the same time as increasing spending. People just don't believe it. Wasn't it "if someone's promising the moon, it's likely to cost the earth"?
    and then the next thing you know
  • Stevo_666Stevo_666 Posts: 36,240

    Stevo_666 said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    Shout out to scandal ridden BoJo who has declared Tories will not cut Corp tax from 19%-17% in a move that will, accordin g to him "save £6bn which can be invested in 'domestic priorities' such as the NHS".

    Alternatively, as many of you on here claim; everything Boris say is a lie, in which case not cutting the rate wont save £6bn in tax revenue and he's just trying to buy votes ;)
    Come on mate, when have I said that?
    So you don't think Boris tells fibs then?
    I think he lies when it suits him and he has a propensity to fib, but I'm not so binary that I therefore think 100% of what he says is a lie. This should be very obvious.
    What do you think about this particular case?
    I imagine if he's announcing that then it will be part of the manifesto. Heard something the other day that said something like the majority of things promised in manifestos are delivered by victorious parties, so I guess I believe that he intends to do what he said re-corporate tax.
    As has been pointed out, nice wordplay.

    But more specifically, do you think he is telling the truth about the £6bn extra tax revenue that would result from not cutting the tax rate?
    It's the same figure HRMC forecast, so presumably that's where it comes from. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/28/uk-corporation-tax-cut-to-cost-billions-more-than-thought
    So he was telling the truth.
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  • Stevo_666 said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    Shout out to scandal ridden BoJo who has declared Tories will not cut Corp tax from 19%-17% in a move that will, accordin g to him "save £6bn which can be invested in 'domestic priorities' such as the NHS".

    Alternatively, as many of you on here claim; everything Boris say is a lie, in which case not cutting the rate wont save £6bn in tax revenue and he's just trying to buy votes ;)
    Come on mate, when have I said that?
    So you don't think Boris tells fibs then?
    I think he lies when it suits him and he has a propensity to fib, but I'm not so binary that I therefore think 100% of what he says is a lie. This should be very obvious.
    What do you think about this particular case?
    I imagine if he's announcing that then it will be part of the manifesto. Heard something the other day that said something like the majority of things promised in manifestos are delivered by victorious parties, so I guess I believe that he intends to do what he said re-corporate tax.
    As has been pointed out, nice wordplay.

    But more specifically, do you think he is telling the truth about the £6bn extra tax revenue that would result from not cutting the tax rate?
    It's the same figure HRMC forecast, so presumably that's where it comes from. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/28/uk-corporation-tax-cut-to-cost-billions-more-than-thought
    So he was telling the truth.
    https://www.bbc.com/news/business-48885496

    and then the next thing you know
  • Stevo_666Stevo_666 Posts: 36,240

    Stevo_666 said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    Shout out to scandal ridden BoJo who has declared Tories will not cut Corp tax from 19%-17% in a move that will, accordin g to him "save £6bn which can be invested in 'domestic priorities' such as the NHS".

    Alternatively, as many of you on here claim; everything Boris say is a lie, in which case not cutting the rate wont save £6bn in tax revenue and he's just trying to buy votes ;)
    Come on mate, when have I said that?
    So you don't think Boris tells fibs then?
    I think he lies when it suits him and he has a propensity to fib, but I'm not so binary that I therefore think 100% of what he says is a lie. This should be very obvious.
    What do you think about this particular case?
    I imagine if he's announcing that then it will be part of the manifesto. Heard something the other day that said something like the majority of things promised in manifestos are delivered by victorious parties, so I guess I believe that he intends to do what he said re-corporate tax.
    As has been pointed out, nice wordplay.

    But more specifically, do you think he is telling the truth about the £6bn extra tax revenue that would result from not cutting the tax rate?
    It's the same figure HRMC forecast, so presumably that's where it comes from. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/28/uk-corporation-tax-cut-to-cost-billions-more-than-thought
    So he was telling the truth.
    https://www.bbc.com/news/business-48885496

    Fyi I don't click on links unless you can be bothered to say (even briiefly) what point you're making. It's called my anti lazy poster tactic although it was mainly in response to one particularly lazy poster on here who could often not be bothered to make his own point.

    So....
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  • rjsterryrjsterry Posts: 15,245
    edited 18 November
    Oh don't be so sanctimonious.


    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    1980s BSA 10sp

    Liberal metropolitan, remoaner, traitor, "sympathiser", etc.
  • Stevo_666Stevo_666 Posts: 36,240
    Nope. Try again.
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  • rjsterryrjsterry Posts: 15,245
    There we go. Still wrestling with the new format. Not sure it was worth bothering, but there you go.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    1980s BSA 10sp

    Liberal metropolitan, remoaner, traitor, "sympathiser", etc.
  • Stevo_666Stevo_666 Posts: 36,240
    rjsterry said:

    There we go. Still wrestling with the new format. Not sure it was worth bothering, but there you go.

    rjsterry said:

    There we go. Still wrestling with the new format. Not sure it was worth bothering, but there you go.

    I can see it now.

    Up until now this has been the case in recent times. Here's the yearly CT receipt stats:
    https://statista.com/statistics/284319/united-kingdom-hmrc-tax-receipts-corporation-tax/

    And here are the CT rates by year:
    https://tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/corporate-tax-rate

    Take out the impact of the GFC and that's a pretty good inverse relationship between the receipts and the rate.

    Usual reasons - encourages investment and economic activity, less avoidance etc.
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  • rjsterryrjsterry Posts: 15,245
    Would be interesting to plot those receipts figures as a % of GDP or inflation adjusted.

    This from Chris Giles at the FT suggests a slightly different trend.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/ChrisGiles_


    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    1980s BSA 10sp

    Liberal metropolitan, remoaner, traitor, "sympathiser", etc.
  • Stevo_666Stevo_666 Posts: 36,240
    rjsterry said:

    Would be interesting to plot those receipts figures as a % of GDP or inflation adjusted.

    This from Chris Giles at the FT suggests a slightly different trend.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/ChrisGiles_


    Pretty sure the increase outstrips overall economic growth and inflation but at least you can see a strong upward trend. Although as mentioned, part of the benefit of this is to stimulate economic activity which results in more tax...

    The reality is also that governments realise they have to compete for investment - this is why the trend in corporate tax rates around the world has been downwards for quite some time. Not just in the UK. Whereas VAT (which has a much less mobile set of people who ultimately bear it) has generally seen rates rise over time around the world.
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  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 43,782 Lives Here
    edited 19 November
    If the UK was so bothered about competing for investment it wouldn't have gone down the Brexit road which has massively impacted investment into the UK.

    The whole economic competency argument of what the Tories do flies out the window when you realise the cost of Brexit, especially its current iteration, dwarfs all the rest of policy.

    If it wasn't such a problem, they'd have published the impact reports.
  • Stevo_666 said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    Shout out to scandal ridden BoJo who has declared Tories will not cut Corp tax from 19%-17% in a move that will, accordin g to him "save £6bn which can be invested in 'domestic priorities' such as the NHS".

    Alternatively, as many of you on here claim; everything Boris say is a lie, in which case not cutting the rate wont save £6bn in tax revenue and he's just trying to buy votes ;)
    Come on mate, when have I said that?
    So you don't think Boris tells fibs then?
    I think he lies when it suits him and he has a propensity to fib, but I'm not so binary that I therefore think 100% of what he says is a lie. This should be very obvious.
    What do you think about this particular case?
    I imagine if he's announcing that then it will be part of the manifesto. Heard something the other day that said something like the majority of things promised in manifestos are delivered by victorious parties, so I guess I believe that he intends to do what he said re-corporate tax.
    As has been pointed out, nice wordplay.

    But more specifically, do you think he is telling the truth about the £6bn extra tax revenue that would result from not cutting the tax rate?
    It's the same figure HRMC forecast, so presumably that's where it comes from. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/28/uk-corporation-tax-cut-to-cost-billions-more-than-thought
    So he was telling the truth.
    https://www.bbc.com/news/business-48885496

    Fyi I don't click on links unless you can be bothered to say (even briiefly) what point you're making. It's called my anti lazy poster tactic although it was mainly in response to one particularly lazy poster on here who could often not be bothered to make his own point.

    So....
    OK, didn't know your rules. Johnson said this year when he was standing for the leadership of the Conservative party that he would be cutting corporation tax from the current 19% and this would increase revenue. Now he says that cutting corporation tax from 19% to 17% would decrease revenue. I think the policy they have landed on is more realistic.

    (Purely as an aside, because it seems relevant to something else on this thread, he also said when he was running for the leadership “We’ve got to find a way of taxing the internet giants on their income, because at the moment it is simply unfair.”)
    and then the next thing you know
  • Stevo_666Stevo_666 Posts: 36,240

    If the UK was so bothered about competing for investment it wouldn't have gone down the Brexit road which has massively impacted investment into the UK.

    The whole economic competency argument of what the Tories do flies out the window when you realise the cost of Brexit, especially its current iteration, dwarfs all the rest of policy.

    If it wasn't such a problem, they'd have published the impact reports.

    Tax competition is completely separate from Brexit which was a much wider issue as you well know. If anything we might have to do a spot more competing if things are nearly as bad as you say post departure. Singapore here we come?
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  • Stevo_666Stevo_666 Posts: 36,240

    Stevo_666 said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    Shout out to scandal ridden BoJo who has declared Tories will not cut Corp tax from 19%-17% in a move that will, accordin g to him "save £6bn which can be invested in 'domestic priorities' such as the NHS".

    Alternatively, as many of you on here claim; everything Boris say is a lie, in which case not cutting the rate wont save £6bn in tax revenue and he's just trying to buy votes ;)
    Come on mate, when have I said that?
    So you don't think Boris tells fibs then?
    I think he lies when it suits him and he has a propensity to fib, but I'm not so binary that I therefore think 100% of what he says is a lie. This should be very obvious.
    What do you think about this particular case?
    I imagine if he's announcing that then it will be part of the manifesto. Heard something the other day that said something like the majority of things promised in manifestos are delivered by victorious parties, so I guess I believe that he intends to do what he said re-corporate tax.
    As has been pointed out, nice wordplay.

    But more specifically, do you think he is telling the truth about the £6bn extra tax revenue that would result from not cutting the tax rate?
    It's the same figure HRMC forecast, so presumably that's where it comes from. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/28/uk-corporation-tax-cut-to-cost-billions-more-than-thought
    So he was telling the truth.
    https://www.bbc.com/news/business-48885496

    Fyi I don't click on links unless you can be bothered to say (even briiefly) what point you're making. It's called my anti lazy poster tactic although it was mainly in response to one particularly lazy poster on here who could often not be bothered to make his own point.

    So....
    OK, didn't know your rules. Johnson said this year when he was standing for the leadership of the Conservative party that he would be cutting corporation tax from the current 19% and this would increase revenue. Now he says that cutting corporation tax from 19% to 17% would decrease revenue. I think the policy they have landed on is more realistic.

    (Purely as an aside, because it seems relevant to something else on this thread, he also said when he was running for the leadership “We’ve got to find a way of taxing the internet giants on their income, because at the moment it is simply unfair.”)
    Think I said above that there comes a point where reductions no longer yield increases and that the level where we are now may be somewhere around that.

    As for taxing the internet giants - that is already in progress/in place to some extent, not just in the UK.
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  • Stevo_666 said:


    Johnson said this year when he was standing for the leadership of the Conservative party that he would be cutting corporation tax from the current 19% and this would increase revenue. Now he says that cutting corporation tax from 19% to 17% would decrease revenue. I think the policy they have landed on is more realistic.

    Think I said above that there comes a point where reductions no longer yield increases and that the level where we are now may be somewhere around that.

    You're very generous to him when there is a specific contradiction. You wouldn't let anyone on here away with that.
    and then the next thing you know
  • rjsterryrjsterry Posts: 15,245
    edited 19 November
    Stevo_666 said:

    rjsterry said:

    Would be interesting to plot those receipts figures as a % of GDP or inflation adjusted.

    This from Chris Giles at the FT suggests a slightly different trend.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/ChrisGiles_


    Pretty sure the increase outstrips overall economic growth and inflation but at least you can see a strong upward trend. Although as mentioned, part of the benefit of this is to stimulate economic activity which results in more tax...

    The reality is also that governments realise they have to compete for investment - this is why the trend in corporate tax rates around the world has been downwards for quite some time. Not just in the UK. Whereas VAT (which has a much less mobile set of people who ultimately bear it) has generally seen rates rise over time around the world.
    Based on gut feeling or have you done some sums? With all due allowances for the charts only being part of the picture, your info and the IFS's (which is based on HMRC data) taken together suggest that receipts may have been even higher had they left the rate as was. But: 1. We'll never know. 2. As one of the follow up comments on the Chris Giles tweet pointed out, there are too many other factors to be able to definitively say "this rate change caused that receipts change."
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    1980s BSA 10sp

    Liberal metropolitan, remoaner, traitor, "sympathiser", etc.
  • Stevo_666Stevo_666 Posts: 36,240
    rjsterry said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    rjsterry said:

    Would be interesting to plot those receipts figures as a % of GDP or inflation adjusted.

    This from Chris Giles at the FT suggests a slightly different trend.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/ChrisGiles_


    Pretty sure the increase outstrips overall economic growth and inflation but at least you can see a strong upward trend. Although as mentioned, part of the benefit of this is to stimulate economic activity which results in more tax...

    The reality is also that governments realise they have to compete for investment - this is why the trend in corporate tax rates around the world has been downwards for quite some time. Not just in the UK. Whereas VAT (which has a much less mobile set of people who ultimately bear it) has generally seen rates rise over time around the world.
    Based on gut feeling or have you done some sums? With all due allowances for the charts only being part of the picture, your info and the IFS's (which is based on HMRC data) taken together suggest that receipts may have been even higher had they left the rate as was. But: 1. We'll never know. 2. As one of the follow up comments on the Chris Giles tweet pointed out, there are too many other factors to be able to definitively say "this rate change caused that receipts change."
    I'd do the sums if I had the time but I'm pretty busy. Could be a sign that taxes are too high globally :)

    But look at the wider picture also on taxes. All this increased economic activity also yields more in income tax, VAT etc which are far greater contributors to govt coffers. Corporate tax is only around 9% of the total tax take. So overall the country benefits.
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  • Stevo_666 said:

    rjsterry said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    rjsterry said:

    Would be interesting to plot those receipts figures as a % of GDP or inflation adjusted.

    This from Chris Giles at the FT suggests a slightly different trend.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/ChrisGiles_


    Pretty sure the increase outstrips overall economic growth and inflation but at least you can see a strong upward trend. Although as mentioned, part of the benefit of this is to stimulate economic activity which results in more tax...

    The reality is also that governments realise they have to compete for investment - this is why the trend in corporate tax rates around the world has been downwards for quite some time. Not just in the UK. Whereas VAT (which has a much less mobile set of people who ultimately bear it) has generally seen rates rise over time around the world.
    Based on gut feeling or have you done some sums? With all due allowances for the charts only being part of the picture, your info and the IFS's (which is based on HMRC data) taken together suggest that receipts may have been even higher had they left the rate as was. But: 1. We'll never know. 2. As one of the follow up comments on the Chris Giles tweet pointed out, there are too many other factors to be able to definitively say "this rate change caused that receipts change."
    I'd do the sums if I had the time but I'm pretty busy. Could be a sign that taxes are too high globally :)

    But look at the wider picture also on taxes. All this increased economic activity also yields more in income tax, VAT etc which are far greater contributors to govt coffers. Corporate tax is only around 9% of the total tax take. So overall the country benefits.
    So you think he was probably right first time, and has changed his mind to be wrong?
    and then the next thing you know
  • LongshotLongshot Posts: 394

    Stevo_666 said:

    rjsterry said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    rjsterry said:

    Would be interesting to plot those receipts figures as a % of GDP or inflation adjusted.

    This from Chris Giles at the FT suggests a slightly different trend.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/ChrisGiles_


    Pretty sure the increase outstrips overall economic growth and inflation but at least you can see a strong upward trend. Although as mentioned, part of the benefit of this is to stimulate economic activity which results in more tax...

    The reality is also that governments realise they have to compete for investment - this is why the trend in corporate tax rates around the world has been downwards for quite some time. Not just in the UK. Whereas VAT (which has a much less mobile set of people who ultimately bear it) has generally seen rates rise over time around the world.
    Based on gut feeling or have you done some sums? With all due allowances for the charts only being part of the picture, your info and the IFS's (which is based on HMRC data) taken together suggest that receipts may have been even higher had they left the rate as was. But: 1. We'll never know. 2. As one of the follow up comments on the Chris Giles tweet pointed out, there are too many other factors to be able to definitively say "this rate change caused that receipts change."
    I'd do the sums if I had the time but I'm pretty busy. Could be a sign that taxes are too high globally :)

    But look at the wider picture also on taxes. All this increased economic activity also yields more in income tax, VAT etc which are far greater contributors to govt coffers. Corporate tax is only around 9% of the total tax take. So overall the country benefits.
    So you think he was probably right first time, and has changed his mind to be wrong?
    It is Boris. He has no idea what he's saying from one minute to the next.
    You can fool some of the people all of the time. Concentrate on those people.
  • Stevo_666Stevo_666 Posts: 36,240
    edited 20 November

    Stevo_666 said:

    rjsterry said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    rjsterry said:

    Would be interesting to plot those receipts figures as a % of GDP or inflation adjusted.

    This from Chris Giles at the FT suggests a slightly different trend.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/ChrisGiles_


    Pretty sure the increase outstrips overall economic growth and inflation but at least you can see a strong upward trend. Although as mentioned, part of the benefit of this is to stimulate economic activity which results in more tax...

    The reality is also that governments realise they have to compete for investment - this is why the trend in corporate tax rates around the world has been downwards for quite some time. Not just in the UK. Whereas VAT (which has a much less mobile set of people who ultimately bear it) has generally seen rates rise over time around the world.
    Based on gut feeling or have you done some sums? With all due allowances for the charts only being part of the picture, your info and the IFS's (which is based on HMRC data) taken together suggest that receipts may have been even higher had they left the rate as was. But: 1. We'll never know. 2. As one of the follow up comments on the Chris Giles tweet pointed out, there are too many other factors to be able to definitively say "this rate change caused that receipts change."
    I'd do the sums if I had the time but I'm pretty busy. Could be a sign that taxes are too high globally :)

    But look at the wider picture also on taxes. All this increased economic activity also yields more in income tax, VAT etc which are far greater contributors to govt coffers. Corporate tax is only around 9% of the total tax take. So overall the country benefits.
    So you think he was probably right first time, and has changed his mind to be wrong?
    He may well be only looking at the corporate tax impact. The numbers appeared to refer only to this.

    The above is my view but given the view of politicians generally I'd like to think I know a bit more than them on my 'specialist' subject :) Do you disagree with my point above?
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  • I agree that increased economic activity leads to greater tax income generally, but I'm not convinced that cutting corporation tax across the board from its current levels is going to provide that. Like I said, I think they've probably settled on a decent policy by targeting the cuts in areas where they may have the desired impact.

    You have more knowledge in this area than me though, and I would be interested in how you think tax could be restructured to prevent companies/individuals reducing their tax contribution via devices set up purely for that purpose.
    and then the next thing you know
  • Stevo_666Stevo_666 Posts: 36,240

    I agree that increased economic activity leads to greater tax income generally, but I'm not convinced that cutting corporation tax across the board from its current levels is going to provide that. Like I said, I think they've probably settled on a decent policy by targeting the cuts in areas where they may have the desired impact.

    You have more knowledge in this area than me though, and I would be interested in how you think tax could be restructured to prevent companies/individuals reducing their tax contribution via devices set up purely for that purpose.

    I think you're coming at it from the view point that not a lot is being done and that this is creating a massive hole in the public finances. There has been an absolute landslide of anti-avoidance legislation over the last decade or more. Examples include CFC rules, Senior accounting Officer regs, DOTAS disclosure regime, Diverted profits tax, digital services tax, the OECD Base Erosion & Profit shifting initiatives, Ultimate beneficial owner disclosures etc, HMRC business risk reviews - on top of mountains of detailed legislation to close specific loopholes. As a result the 'tax gap' is reducing steadily:

    But don't take it just from me, here's what HMRC say: £2bn invested in tackling the issues and over 100 separate measures put in place:
    https://gov.uk/government/news/tax-gap-remains-low

    On your point about how much is lost through avoidance, here's the report which is also linked in the page above:
    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/820979/Measuring_tax_gaps_2019_edition.pdf

    Have a look at the summary graphs on page 4. Avoidance is a low percentage of the overall gap. The largest gaps are from carelessness, legal interpretation and criminal activity (including tax evasion).

    TBH what is in place or in the pipeline is plenty as balance needs to be struck between closing the gap and the compliance burden on business - a lot of this impacts businesses that do not do this sort of stuff but the rules are drafted widely to place reporting/ disclosure requirements on them which are quite frankly pretty burdensome.
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