BREXIT - Is This Really Still Rumbling On? 😴

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  • bobmcstuff
    bobmcstuff Posts: 11,196
    I meant our position in the EU in general, not specifically what Cameron has been up to this week.

    FWIW I would have been voting to stay in the EU and nothing Cameron has done has changed that (I still think he's an arse)
  • bompington
    bompington Posts: 7,674
    Mr Goo wrote:
    ...CaMORON... ...CaMORON... ...CaMORON...
    Do you have any idea just how fatuous the juvenile name calling makes you look?
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,586
    bobmcstuff wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    bobmcstuff wrote:
    Mr Goo wrote:
    PBlakeney wrote:
    Mr Goo wrote:
    That went well David.

    New drawing board anyone?


    http://news.sky.com/story/1633169/eu-migrant-talks-donald-tusk-says-no-deal
    I wonder if Westminster finally realises it's place in the EU?
    And the World come to that. The days of being a World power are gone.

    The UK shouldn't even be attempting to be a world power. There are plenty of countries that thrive without having to dine at the top table.

    I think that's a bit of an overstatement. Sure we aren't the US/China, but we still have the 5th/6th biggest economy in the world (depending on measure) and that definitely gives us a place on the world stage comparable to the other countries that fill out the top 10.

    The people who make these kind of statements seem to be very keen to play Britain down, which I think is unfair.

    What do you think is the manifestation of having a "place on the world stage"??

    What does that mean practically?

    I did write a much longer post but deleted most of it as I was only trying to make a small point and I didn't want to get sucked into it... The point I was trying to make is that if you take some people's views at face value, Britain is some tiny irrelevance and we should be pursuing some sort of isolationist policy which I don't agree with (particularly isolationism).

    I personally feel the UK government has done OK on a global level (e.g., our position in the EU, G8, Nato, and joining initiatives such as the Asian infrastructure bank and so forth) but I am sure that plenty of people would disagree.

    It's a phrase that is often trotted out ("player on the world stage" or "sit at the top table") but no one really knows what that means in terms of actions.

    I think it's worthwhile digging into these well worn phrases.
    _
  • mr_goo
    mr_goo Posts: 3,770
    bompington wrote:
    Mr Goo wrote:
    ...CaMORON... ...CaMORON... ...CaMORON...
    Do you have any idea just how fatuous the juvenile name calling makes you look?

    YESSSSSSSSS!. I am foolish, inane, childish, idiotic, infantile, vacuous and certainly nonsensical for voting him into power the first time around.
    Always be yourself, unless you can be Aaron Rodgers....Then always be Aaron Rodgers.
  • mamba80
    mamba80 Posts: 5,032
    Mr Goo wrote:
    bompington wrote:
    Mr Goo wrote:
    ...CaMORON... ...CaMORON... ...CaMORON...
    Do you have any idea just how fatuous the juvenile name calling makes you look?

    YESSSSSSSSS!. I am foolish, inane, childish, idiotic, infantile, vacuous and certainly nonsensical for voting him into power the first time around.

    My respect for you had just fallen through the floor!

    i m starting to think that the EU will put such terms on us over rules/regs and free movement etc that it will make little practical difference whether we leave of not, of course outside, we ll have no influence over rules or vetoes.

    i also think that the EU isnt bothered (too much) if we leave, its not as if we ve ever been a positive force for european integration and thats what its all about.
  • BelgianBeerGeek
    BelgianBeerGeek Posts: 5,226
    Hmmm...I dunno Mamba. Leaving the EU is a big deal. After all, no one has done it before. I think the EU will work very hard to keep us in. The issue is Cameron painting himself into a corner cos he's scared of UKIP and his own party. He made a promise he didn't have to, and they will shaft him over it. Wait for the big beasts like Bozza to break ranks and maul DC.
    Anyway, the main point is the EU project must keep going forward. If we leave, then another country might want to. If the country was small (or on its knees), that might not be an issue. But the UK is, despite our reluctance at times, a big player, and a big contributor to the project.
    Ecrasez l’infame
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,586
    Only really Germany has the political will domestically for the so called 'ever closer union' that Brexit mongers whine so much about.

    Sure, when it was set out, that was the aim, and I'm sure a lot of the wonks in Brussels would prefer a closer union (makes plenty of things easier), but most European citizens are content (as opposed to the alternatives) with the way it functions. I think it's a bit of a myth to suggest the EU would move to closer union. Sure, there's a rise of some anti EU populist parties, but they're still minority parties (bar Poland....).

    As for all this chat about the EU not being democratic - did you not vote for your MEP?
    _
  • mamba80
    mamba80 Posts: 5,032
    BelgianBeerGeek wrote:
    Hmmm...I dunno Mamba. Leaving the EU is a big deal. After all, no one has done it before. I think the EU will work very hard to keep us in. The issue is Cameron painting himself into a corner cos he's scared of UKIP and his own party. He made a promise he didn't have to, and they will shaft him over it. Wait for the big beasts like Bozza to break ranks and maul DC.
    Anyway, the main point is the EU project must keep going forward. If we leave, then another country might want to. If the country was small (or on its knees), that might not be an issue. But the UK is, despite our reluctance at times, a big player, and a big contributor to the project.


    Yes we apparently pay in about 11bn, more than we get out, thats an awful lot of money but not so much, about a months worth of NHS spending?
    i m sure they ll get by without us, if the EU were that keen, then DC would have felt able to ask for far more, his demands were modest and he didnt even get them, asking to make the eu more competitive? come on, who is going to say thats a bad idea????
    Totally agree on the ukip angle and of course the EU dont want anyone else to break ranks, so they ll give us punitive terms to carry on trading with them, will hurt them too but they ve no choice.

    i guess i m in the dont know camp at mo, what eu do about refugees and more importantly Syria, is of much more importance than migrant benefits.
  • BelgianBeerGeek
    BelgianBeerGeek Posts: 5,226
    When it comes to benefits DC may have a Plan B. Strengthening the Commons. he already has the necessary laws to push through unpalatable legislation, but bottled it (DC is quite shallow). DC is planning for the possibility of "losing" his referendum ie the people of the UK being stupid enough to want to stay. Then he will bring down benefits for all, not just foreigners. It won't matter to Dave by then, he will be in the Lords and his successor can sort it out.
    Basically, for the point of party politics (which is what politics in Britain is), we are being forced down a path which will shaft us all (maybe :wink: )
    Ecrasez l’infame
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 25,738
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Sure, when it was set out, that was the aim, and I'm sure a lot of the wonks in Brussels would prefer a closer union (makes plenty of things easier), but most European citizens are content (as opposed to the alternatives) with the way it functions. I think it's a bit of a myth to suggest the EU would move to closer union. Sure, there's a rise of some anti EU populist parties, but they're still minority parties (bar Poland....).
    Pretty much sums up the EU process.
    We are not sure what we want, what direction to go in, or how to get there.
    Let's just spend 5 years discussing it while our (MEP) personal income increases.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,586
    The trials & tribulations renegotiation that Cameron did has, partly by accident, shown the problem the Brexit has.

    If you imagine all the leaders were on Cameron's side during those negotiations, which they were, imagine how tough the negotiations will be once Britain is out. After all, they still need to be negotiated with afterwards...
    _
  • mamba80
    mamba80 Posts: 5,032
    mamba80 wrote:
    Does anyone know where the UK 's borders are likely to be?
    at the mo, they are in French ports but presumably, they d move to UK ports?

    So a migrant problem in Calais becomes a UK one? cant see the french allowing the status quo.

    Proof Cameron reads this thread :shock:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-e ... m-35519210
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,586
    FT makes a decent point about the EU:

    "Britain's involvement in the European project has been a master class that makes us cringe". Goes on to talk about how it dodged the Euro and Schengen yet was key player in founding the single market.



    If the referendum is "a verdict on membership to date, it is a foregone conclusion - or should be. Britsin is richer and better run than when it joined. This can only mean Europe has enriched us, or, at worst, failed to hold us back decisively. There is no third option: it cannot have been a disaster unless modern Britain is a disaster."
    _
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 25,738
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    ..... it cannot have been a disaster unless modern Britain is a disaster."
    I suppose that depends on the voter's circumstances and what the voter views as a disaster. FTSE at -20%?
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/business-35504137
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,586
    PBlakeney wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    ..... it cannot have been a disaster unless modern Britain is a disaster."
    I suppose that depends on the voter's circumstances and what the voter views as a disaster. FTSE at -20%?
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/business-35504137

    :roll:

    Stocks go up, stocks go down.

    Only 6/10 bear markets coincide with recessions.

    You're being obtuse if you can't see Britain is generally pretty good.
    _
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 25,738
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    You're being obtuse if you can't see Britain is generally pretty good.
    Not really.
    I see some places doing well. I see more doing poorly.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • mamba80
    mamba80 Posts: 5,032
    Rick Chasey wrote:

    You're being obtuse if you can't see Britain is generally pretty good.


    i dont think the UK is all that great, certainly not pretty good our education system, NHS (AE and mental health esp) transport, roads, housing - affordability/rental costs, inequality...... not too mention following the US into disastrous wars.

    whether any of this is anything to do with EU ? no of course not, imo its our inability to be european, so, we are on the brink of being the only country to leave, shows our EU credentials and what we think of europe in general :(


    the UK is great place IF you ve money enough not to need any of the above.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,586
    Thought it was the 6th biggest economy in the world?

    Not bad for 70million people.

    It's relevant because as the quote says, Britain would be terrible if the EU was terrible. But, in the grand scheme of things, compared to the rest of the world, it isn't.
    _
  • bobmcstuff
    bobmcstuff Posts: 11,196
    Yes Britain has got problems - but what country doesn't. Our problems are pretty minor compared to a lot of other countries.
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Thought it was the 6th biggest economy in the world?

    Not bad for 70million people.

    It's relevant because as the quote says, Britain would be terrible if the EU was terrible. But, in the grand scheme of things, compared to the rest of the world, it isn't.

    5th according to the IMF last year. Although may get overtaken soon.

    This is what I was getting at earlier when I was decrying people who play down Britain - we're not all that bad :)
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 25,738
    bobmcstuff wrote:
    Yes Britain has got problems - but what country doesn't. Our problems are pretty minor compared to a lot of other countries.
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Thought it was the 6th biggest economy in the world?

    Not bad for 70million people.

    It's relevant because as the quote says, Britain would be terrible if the EU was terrible. But, in the grand scheme of things, compared to the rest of the world, it isn't.

    5th according to the IMF last year. Although may get overtaken soon.

    This is what I was getting at earlier when I was decrying people who play down Britain - we're not all that bad :)
    As long as you define your life in pounds, dollars and euros, fine*. There is more to life.
    *Or rather, the perception of having the above.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • finchy
    finchy Posts: 6,686
    PBlakeney wrote:
    As long as you define your life in pounds, dollars and euros, fine*. There is more to life.

    Indeed. And even if you do define your life in pounds, dollars and euros, we're only 5th or 6th best in the world because we have quite a large population. If you look at the wealth measure that really counts for the average person (GDP per capita (PPP)), then we don't even get into the top 20. It's easy having a larger economy than somewhere like Switzerland or Sweden when you have 10 times the population.
  • mamba80
    mamba80 Posts: 5,032
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Thought it was the 6th biggest economy in the world?

    Not bad for 70million people.

    It's relevant because as the quote says, Britain would be terrible if the EU was terrible. But, in the grand scheme of things, compared to the rest of the world, it isn't.

    We live in europe, the western world, with centuries of culture and history, so of course we do not compare to 3rd world countries, it is as PB says.

    As for doing down UK? what is wrong with looking at our shortfalls and trying to addressing them? if all you do is say "all is rosy and we arent as bad as xyz" then we ll just go backwards - numeracy and literacy levels lowest in OECD for example (22nd and 23rd) not 5th or 6th !
    what r we doing about this? cutting state ed funding, teacher (at degree level) shortages.

    as i said, we have really gone our own way with EU, numerous opt outs, no euro, no schengen and now offering a referendum, any other eu country done this? with a v strong possibility we will leave.
  • ballysmate
    ballysmate Posts: 15,921
    mamba80 wrote:
    Mr Goo wrote:
    bompington wrote:
    Mr Goo wrote:
    ...CaMORON... ...CaMORON... ...CaMORON...
    Do you have any idea just how fatuous the juvenile name calling makes you look?

    YESSSSSSSSS!. I am foolish, inane, childish, idiotic, infantile, vacuous and certainly nonsensical for voting him into power the first time around.

    My respect for you had just fallen through the floor!

    i m starting to think that the EU will put such terms on us over rules/regs and free movement etc that it will make little practical difference whether we leave of not, of course outside, we ll have no influence over rules or vetoes.

    i also think that the EU isnt bothered (too much) if we leave, its not as if we ve ever been a positive force for european integration and thats what its all about.


    I posted this earlier which appears to show we would maintain trade links as they are. Of course, if we leave, we have no use for a veto. We will be able to decide for ourselves whether something is in our interest and act accordingly. People argue that by leaving, we will no longer be able to influence to change things. But Cameron's list of proposals was fairly modest and he was unable to achieve even that, so we would be giving up little influence.
    Thanks to the unrecognised but astounding work of the World Trade Organisation there really is no need for either an EU single market. Average import tariffs into the EU are 1.09 per cent for the United States – and it does not bear the cost of EU commissioners and hangers-on, bureaucrats, politicians and advisers, nor an EU parliament or an EU membership fee to gain access to what the Confederation of British Industry claims mistakenly is vital to our economic survival.

    Canada, Switzerland and South Korea all have Free Trade agreements with the EU to gain access without cost to the erroneously titled “single market” and the Lisbon Treaty makes the EU duty-bound to give any country leaving – be it the UK or Scotland – the same deal.



    http://www.scotsman.com/news/brian-mont ... -1-3634328

    As for the EU not being bothered by our leaving, we are the 2nd highest financial contributor, so someone else would have to take up the slack. Mediterranean states? France? Eastern Europe? I doubt it. Get your cheque book out again Angela.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,586
    I don't follow your logic.

    If as you say the EU members want to keep the UK in, they would surely be on Cameron's side during those negotiations right?

    In which case, imagine how tough it will be if Britain does leave? They won't be so giving then!!!

    And that is the point at which everything would need to be renegotiated!!
    _
  • florerider
    florerider Posts: 1,112
    Blaming the EU is not the same as solving the UKs economic problems.
  • ballysmate
    ballysmate Posts: 15,921
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    I don't follow your logic.

    If as you say the EU members want to keep the UK in, they would surely be on Cameron's side during those negotiations right?

    In which case, imagine how tough it will be if Britain does leave? They won't be so giving then!!!

    And that is the point at which everything would need to be renegotiated!!

    Perhaps you are right. perhaps they don't want us. In which case, it could be time to go.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,586
    Ballysmate wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    I don't follow your logic.

    If as you say the EU members want to keep the UK in, they would surely be on Cameron's side during those negotiations right?

    In which case, imagine how tough it will be if Britain does leave? They won't be so giving then!!!

    And that is the point at which everything would need to be renegotiated!!

    Perhaps you are right. perhaps they don't want us. In which case, it could be time to go.

    Course they want UK to stay.
    _
  • Lookyhere
    Lookyhere Posts: 987
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Ballysmate wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    I don't follow your logic.

    If as you say the EU members want to keep the UK in, they would surely be on Cameron's side during those negotiations right?

    In which case, imagine how tough it will be if Britain does leave? They won't be so giving then!!!

    And that is the point at which everything would need to be renegotiated!!

    Perhaps you are right. perhaps they don't want us. In which case, it could be time to go.

    Course they want UK to stay.

    they are ambivalent, we are just a pia for EU's more federalist approach, they ll live without our few billion, Germany can easily make up that difference.
    http://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=MEI_BOP
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,586
    Not really. UK is a natural counterweight.

    Germany like UK to be a free market ally against France, French like the UK to help avoid German dominance, the smaller countries like the UK's natural disinclination to further integration.
    _
  • florerider
    florerider Posts: 1,112
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Not really. UK is a natural counterweight.

    Germany like UK to be a free market ally against France, French like the UK to help avoid German dominance, the smaller countries like the UK's natural disinclination to further integration.

    which is why any good negotiator,or any trained salesman, is pushing against an open door, just work with one's partners on each element and it is closed in no time.

    However, as all salesmen know, it is quite easy to talk oneself out of closing a deal.

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