BREXIT - Is This Really Still Rumbling On? 😴

pblakeney

rick_chasey said:

john80 said:

You guys are really getting your tinfoil hats on the go. The real answer to this problem is for the UK to go down a route of having some energy and food security and reversing some of the globalisation agenda if you can' handle some rough patches.

Building resilience through international co-operation and sensible planning is a better idea than having a foreign policy that is orientated around mistrust of the world.

...except a sizeable percentage of the population has a complete mistrust of the world.

rick_chasey

pblakeney said:

rick_chasey said:

john80 said:

You guys are really getting your tinfoil hats on the go. The real answer to this problem is for the UK to go down a route of having some energy and food security and reversing some of the globalisation agenda if you can' handle some rough patches.

Building resilience through international co-operation and sensible planning is a better idea than having a foreign policy that is orientated around mistrust of the world.

...except a sizeable percentage of the population has a complete mistrust of the world.

That's why countries who run the world through plebiscites collapses and why representative democracy has a better track record.

TheBigBean

rick_chasey said:

pblakeney said:

rick_chasey said:

john80 said:

You guys are really getting your tinfoil hats on the go. The real answer to this problem is for the UK to go down a route of having some energy and food security and reversing some of the globalisation agenda if you can' handle some rough patches.

Building resilience through international co-operation and sensible planning is a better idea than having a foreign policy that is orientated around mistrust of the world.

...except a sizeable percentage of the population has a complete mistrust of the world.

That's why countries who run the world through plebiscites collapses and why representative democracy has a better track record.

Switzerland?

rick_chasey

TheBigBean said:

rick_chasey said:

pblakeney said:

rick_chasey said:

john80 said:

You guys are really getting your tinfoil hats on the go. The real answer to this problem is for the UK to go down a route of having some energy and food security and reversing some of the globalisation agenda if you can' handle some rough patches.

Building resilience through international co-operation and sensible planning is a better idea than having a foreign policy that is orientated around mistrust of the world.

...except a sizeable percentage of the population has a complete mistrust of the world.

That's why countries who run the world through plebiscites collapses and why representative democracy has a better track record.

Switzerland?

Geneva

Jezyboy

rick_chasey said:

john80 said:

You guys are really getting your tinfoil hats on the go. The real answer to this problem is for the UK to go down a route of having some energy and food security and reversing some of the globalisation agenda if you can' handle some rough patches.

Building resilience through international co-operation and sensible planning is a better idea than having a foreign policy that is orientated around mistrust of the world.

In the UK's case it seems more that we've simultaneously neglected UK internal resilience and built a foreign policy around mistrust of the world.

rick_chasey

Jezyboy said:

rick_chasey said:

john80 said:

You guys are really getting your tinfoil hats on the go. The real answer to this problem is for the UK to go down a route of having some energy and food security and reversing some of the globalisation agenda if you can' handle some rough patches.

Building resilience through international co-operation and sensible planning is a better idea than having a foreign policy that is orientated around mistrust of the world.

In the UK's case it seems more that we've simultaneously neglected UK internal resilience and built a foreign policy around mistrust of the world.

Yes that's how you end up in this position.

rjsterry

Pross said:

rjsterry said:

Pross said:

rjsterry said:

surrey_commuter said:

So let's all imagine we are the populist PM with a magic money tree what would each of us do to stay popular when the electorate is faced with a potential doubling of their power bills costing some an extra £1k a year?

Testiculating until post-COP is a given

Keeping the SVR cap in place and nationalising supply companies as they go bankrupt would be a good leftie solution.

Abolishing green levies could save consumers up to a third and if replaced (with a vague promise) by general taxation would be far less regressive

I am not a populist, but would let this particular fluctuation run its course. Nobody insulated anything before the '73 Oil crisis. If you are going to be a big state PM you could do a lot worse than a big hike in the Building Regs and a requirement to retro fit to existing buildings. 80% of the buildings we will use for the next century are already standing. You can offer whatever grants/loans people need to pay for this.

Is insulation still that big an issue? We were entitled to free insulation when my daughter was having chemo and when the company came around to look at our early 70s Barratt house there was nothing left they could do (I think our lost insulation id probably a lot thinner that current regulations but going to the new standard would mean it would no longer give us any storage). Our garage conversion is a problem though - single skin blockwork and flat roof that is heated by a couple of oil filled electric radiators - it costs me a fortune in eletricity already!

I think this is a good example of the problem. It's not just insulation - although the number of properties with 9" solid brick walls and a bit of ragged loft insulation continues to surprise me. For each house or type there will be a different mix of insulation, window upgrades, heating system improvements, ventilation and maybe even some micro generation to achieve the optimum carbon reduction/£. Currently this has been dumbed down to 'have your wall cavities been done?' and handing out free loft roll. It is does also need some changes to the the planning legislation: currently, single glazed sash windows have attained a semi-sacred status with some Conservation Officers and 'Heritage' still seems to trump all other concerns, which is nuts when you think of the stakes involved.

Having worked in several Georgian conversions in Bristol I can certainly identify with your last sentence. Draughty single glazed sash windows and, in my current office, a rickety Listed staircase that would be condemned as a H&S issue in any modern building (I wouldn't fancy my chances of surviving a fall against the bannister!). The floor is so uneven that when I was working there last week I was sliding off the front of my chair but the building is Georgian and in Bristol so what can you do?

I find it slightly ironic that my fairly modern and relatively energy efficient gas boiler is likely to need replacing as part of the move away from gas whereas the electricity I used, and which is a far higher proportion of my fuel cost, will probably remain reliant on gas generation.

Someone once pointed out that the 3-4mm gap around the perimeter of a non-draughtproofed sash window is roughly equivalent to having one pane of a 6 over 6 window missing. For some reason we tolerate the gaps because reasons. There are a few exemplars of listed properties that have been refurbished to meet the Enerphit standard (PassivHaus for existing buildings) so it can be done without trashing the historic value.

https://passivehouseplus.ie/magazine/upgrade/historic-london-house-gets-near-passive-transformation

rick_chasey

The thing with this gov't is they don't really like to make decisions. They let events happen and then respond, letting events decide things for themselves.

So any kind of strategy around resilience vs economy or anything that just won't be done.

Instead you have a government who firefights things and makes the public feel better about the fires by blaming other people. The focus is on how to fight the fire and not what may have been the cause of the fires.

It works in the sense that it can create a sort of siege mentality where it is the govt (and by association the nation) gritting it through all these problems, but you can just not have the problems to begin with.

Take the trucker problem. This exact problem was foreseen years before the fact. The gov't could have taken the view that it wanted "british drivers for British trucks" when the problem was highlighted to the govt years before, and made the necessary investments. Lorry driving education for example was not put on the corona exemption list so even if people wanted to become truckies, they wouldn't have been able to for most of 2020.

The alternative was to waive the immigration restrictions for the truck drivers so that there would be no shortage. Either way, there's a solution there.

Instead, the gov't has done nothing, created the restriction and is doing nothing to change it. It's now trying to fight the fire by waiving various restrictions on qualifications etc, but it's too late to avoid the disruption, which will continue for a while.

So something as binary as that - what makes people think this govt will have a coherent energy strategy? The gov't has no strategy whatsoever, other than a comms one, which is to have Patel launch some culture war statement every time they do something unpopular like cutting universal credit.

kingstongraham

rjsterry said:

Pross said:

rjsterry said:

Pross said:

rjsterry said:

surrey_commuter said:

So let's all imagine we are the populist PM with a magic money tree what would each of us do to stay popular when the electorate is faced with a potential doubling of their power bills costing some an extra £1k a year?

Testiculating until post-COP is a given

Keeping the SVR cap in place and nationalising supply companies as they go bankrupt would be a good leftie solution.

Abolishing green levies could save consumers up to a third and if replaced (with a vague promise) by general taxation would be far less regressive

I am not a populist, but would let this particular fluctuation run its course. Nobody insulated anything before the '73 Oil crisis. If you are going to be a big state PM you could do a lot worse than a big hike in the Building Regs and a requirement to retro fit to existing buildings. 80% of the buildings we will use for the next century are already standing. You can offer whatever grants/loans people need to pay for this.

Is insulation still that big an issue? We were entitled to free insulation when my daughter was having chemo and when the company came around to look at our early 70s Barratt house there was nothing left they could do (I think our lost insulation id probably a lot thinner that current regulations but going to the new standard would mean it would no longer give us any storage). Our garage conversion is a problem though - single skin blockwork and flat roof that is heated by a couple of oil filled electric radiators - it costs me a fortune in eletricity already!

I think this is a good example of the problem. It's not just insulation - although the number of properties with 9" solid brick walls and a bit of ragged loft insulation continues to surprise me. For each house or type there will be a different mix of insulation, window upgrades, heating system improvements, ventilation and maybe even some micro generation to achieve the optimum carbon reduction/£. Currently this has been dumbed down to 'have your wall cavities been done?' and handing out free loft roll. It is does also need some changes to the the planning legislation: currently, single glazed sash windows have attained a semi-sacred status with some Conservation Officers and 'Heritage' still seems to trump all other concerns, which is nuts when you think of the stakes involved.

Having worked in several Georgian conversions in Bristol I can certainly identify with your last sentence. Draughty single glazed sash windows and, in my current office, a rickety Listed staircase that would be condemned as a H&S issue in any modern building (I wouldn't fancy my chances of surviving a fall against the bannister!). The floor is so uneven that when I was working there last week I was sliding off the front of my chair but the building is Georgian and in Bristol so what can you do?

I find it slightly ironic that my fairly modern and relatively energy efficient gas boiler is likely to need replacing as part of the move away from gas whereas the electricity I used, and which is a far higher proportion of my fuel cost, will probably remain reliant on gas generation.

Someone once pointed out that the 3-4mm gap around the perimeter of a non-draughtproofed sash window is roughly equivalent to having one pane of a 6 over 6 window missing. For some reason we tolerate the gaps because reasons. There are a few exemplars of listed properties that have been refurbished to meet the Enerphit standard (PassivHaus for existing buildings) so it can be done without trashing the historic value.

https://passivehouseplus.ie/magazine/upgrade/historic-london-house-gets-near-passive-transformation

"At around £1.2million the job was certainly an expensive one, but the energy works did not account for the lion’s share, by any means. "In the end the energy efficiency work was probably only a third of the budget,” Prewett says."

I don't think that work has a timescale over which it pays for itself.

rjsterry

kingstongraham said:

rjsterry said:

Pross said:

rjsterry said:

Pross said:

rjsterry said:

surrey_commuter said:

So let's all imagine we are the populist PM with a magic money tree what would each of us do to stay popular when the electorate is faced with a potential doubling of their power bills costing some an extra £1k a year?

Testiculating until post-COP is a given

Keeping the SVR cap in place and nationalising supply companies as they go bankrupt would be a good leftie solution.

Abolishing green levies could save consumers up to a third and if replaced (with a vague promise) by general taxation would be far less regressive

I am not a populist, but would let this particular fluctuation run its course. Nobody insulated anything before the '73 Oil crisis. If you are going to be a big state PM you could do a lot worse than a big hike in the Building Regs and a requirement to retro fit to existing buildings. 80% of the buildings we will use for the next century are already standing. You can offer whatever grants/loans people need to pay for this.

Is insulation still that big an issue? We were entitled to free insulation when my daughter was having chemo and when the company came around to look at our early 70s Barratt house there was nothing left they could do (I think our lost insulation id probably a lot thinner that current regulations but going to the new standard would mean it would no longer give us any storage). Our garage conversion is a problem though - single skin blockwork and flat roof that is heated by a couple of oil filled electric radiators - it costs me a fortune in eletricity already!

I think this is a good example of the problem. It's not just insulation - although the number of properties with 9" solid brick walls and a bit of ragged loft insulation continues to surprise me. For each house or type there will be a different mix of insulation, window upgrades, heating system improvements, ventilation and maybe even some micro generation to achieve the optimum carbon reduction/£. Currently this has been dumbed down to 'have your wall cavities been done?' and handing out free loft roll. It is does also need some changes to the the planning legislation: currently, single glazed sash windows have attained a semi-sacred status with some Conservation Officers and 'Heritage' still seems to trump all other concerns, which is nuts when you think of the stakes involved.

Having worked in several Georgian conversions in Bristol I can certainly identify with your last sentence. Draughty single glazed sash windows and, in my current office, a rickety Listed staircase that would be condemned as a H&S issue in any modern building (I wouldn't fancy my chances of surviving a fall against the bannister!). The floor is so uneven that when I was working there last week I was sliding off the front of my chair but the building is Georgian and in Bristol so what can you do?

I find it slightly ironic that my fairly modern and relatively energy efficient gas boiler is likely to need replacing as part of the move away from gas whereas the electricity I used, and which is a far higher proportion of my fuel cost, will probably remain reliant on gas generation.

Someone once pointed out that the 3-4mm gap around the perimeter of a non-draughtproofed sash window is roughly equivalent to having one pane of a 6 over 6 window missing. For some reason we tolerate the gaps because reasons. There are a few exemplars of listed properties that have been refurbished to meet the Enerphit standard (PassivHaus for existing buildings) so it can be done without trashing the historic value.

https://passivehouseplus.ie/magazine/upgrade/historic-london-house-gets-near-passive-transformation

"At around £1.2million the job was certainly an expensive one, but the energy works did not account for the lion’s share, by any means. "In the end the energy efficiency work was probably only a third of the budget,” Prewett says."

I don't think that work has a timescale over which it pays for itself.

That's an extreme example and the cost will have been inflated by virtue of it being a listed building and a very valuable one (Bloomsbury townhouses are somewhere between £3M and £20M) at that. On the other hand if people are happy dropping £20k on a new kitchen, which they won't ever see the return on, why should the sticks and carrots not be put in place to encourage people to drop similar money on reducing their energy use. The paying for itself in X years is a nice to have if you can but not essential.

pblakeney

rjsterry said:

kingstongraham said:

rjsterry said:

Pross said:

rjsterry said:

Pross said:

rjsterry said:

surrey_commuter said:

So let's all imagine we are the populist PM with a magic money tree what would each of us do to stay popular when the electorate is faced with a potential doubling of their power bills costing some an extra £1k a year?

Testiculating until post-COP is a given

Keeping the SVR cap in place and nationalising supply companies as they go bankrupt would be a good leftie solution.

Abolishing green levies could save consumers up to a third and if replaced (with a vague promise) by general taxation would be far less regressive

I am not a populist, but would let this particular fluctuation run its course. Nobody insulated anything before the '73 Oil crisis. If you are going to be a big state PM you could do a lot worse than a big hike in the Building Regs and a requirement to retro fit to existing buildings. 80% of the buildings we will use for the next century are already standing. You can offer whatever grants/loans people need to pay for this.

Is insulation still that big an issue? We were entitled to free insulation when my daughter was having chemo and when the company came around to look at our early 70s Barratt house there was nothing left they could do (I think our lost insulation id probably a lot thinner that current regulations but going to the new standard would mean it would no longer give us any storage). Our garage conversion is a problem though - single skin blockwork and flat roof that is heated by a couple of oil filled electric radiators - it costs me a fortune in eletricity already!

I think this is a good example of the problem. It's not just insulation - although the number of properties with 9" solid brick walls and a bit of ragged loft insulation continues to surprise me. For each house or type there will be a different mix of insulation, window upgrades, heating system improvements, ventilation and maybe even some micro generation to achieve the optimum carbon reduction/£. Currently this has been dumbed down to 'have your wall cavities been done?' and handing out free loft roll. It is does also need some changes to the the planning legislation: currently, single glazed sash windows have attained a semi-sacred status with some Conservation Officers and 'Heritage' still seems to trump all other concerns, which is nuts when you think of the stakes involved.

Having worked in several Georgian conversions in Bristol I can certainly identify with your last sentence. Draughty single glazed sash windows and, in my current office, a rickety Listed staircase that would be condemned as a H&S issue in any modern building (I wouldn't fancy my chances of surviving a fall against the bannister!). The floor is so uneven that when I was working there last week I was sliding off the front of my chair but the building is Georgian and in Bristol so what can you do?

I find it slightly ironic that my fairly modern and relatively energy efficient gas boiler is likely to need replacing as part of the move away from gas whereas the electricity I used, and which is a far higher proportion of my fuel cost, will probably remain reliant on gas generation.

Someone once pointed out that the 3-4mm gap around the perimeter of a non-draughtproofed sash window is roughly equivalent to having one pane of a 6 over 6 window missing. For some reason we tolerate the gaps because reasons. There are a few exemplars of listed properties that have been refurbished to meet the Enerphit standard (PassivHaus for existing buildings) so it can be done without trashing the historic value.

https://passivehouseplus.ie/magazine/upgrade/historic-london-house-gets-near-passive-transformation

"At around £1.2million the job was certainly an expensive one, but the energy works did not account for the lion’s share, by any means. "In the end the energy efficiency work was probably only a third of the budget,” Prewett says."

I don't think that work has a timescale over which it pays for itself.

That's an extreme example and the cost will have been inflated by virtue of it being a listed building and a very valuable one (Bloomsbury townhouses are somewhere between £3M and £20M) at that. On the other hand if people are happy dropping £20k on a new kitchen, which they won't ever see the return on, why should the sticks and carrots not be put in place to encourage people to drop similar money on reducing their energy use. The paying for itself in X years is a nice to have if you can but not essential.

People generally avoid sticks but like carrot cake.
This being the cake stop. 😉

ddraver

Rick might be the Populist Centrist Dad that Britain needs!

To the Middle Ground!!

rick_chasey

Populism is easy. No country does well off the back of it. You please the people for popularity at the expense of the wellbeing of the nation.

Doing the opposite, improving the wellbeing of the nation doing things that are unpopular - people who can do that need to be revered

kingstongraham

rjsterry said:

kingstongraham said:

rjsterry said:

Pross said:

rjsterry said:

Pross said:

rjsterry said:

surrey_commuter said:

So let's all imagine we are the populist PM with a magic money tree what would each of us do to stay popular when the electorate is faced with a potential doubling of their power bills costing some an extra £1k a year?

Testiculating until post-COP is a given

Keeping the SVR cap in place and nationalising supply companies as they go bankrupt would be a good leftie solution.

Abolishing green levies could save consumers up to a third and if replaced (with a vague promise) by general taxation would be far less regressive

I am not a populist, but would let this particular fluctuation run its course. Nobody insulated anything before the '73 Oil crisis. If you are going to be a big state PM you could do a lot worse than a big hike in the Building Regs and a requirement to retro fit to existing buildings. 80% of the buildings we will use for the next century are already standing. You can offer whatever grants/loans people need to pay for this.

Is insulation still that big an issue? We were entitled to free insulation when my daughter was having chemo and when the company came around to look at our early 70s Barratt house there was nothing left they could do (I think our lost insulation id probably a lot thinner that current regulations but going to the new standard would mean it would no longer give us any storage). Our garage conversion is a problem though - single skin blockwork and flat roof that is heated by a couple of oil filled electric radiators - it costs me a fortune in eletricity already!

I think this is a good example of the problem. It's not just insulation - although the number of properties with 9" solid brick walls and a bit of ragged loft insulation continues to surprise me. For each house or type there will be a different mix of insulation, window upgrades, heating system improvements, ventilation and maybe even some micro generation to achieve the optimum carbon reduction/£. Currently this has been dumbed down to 'have your wall cavities been done?' and handing out free loft roll. It is does also need some changes to the the planning legislation: currently, single glazed sash windows have attained a semi-sacred status with some Conservation Officers and 'Heritage' still seems to trump all other concerns, which is nuts when you think of the stakes involved.

Having worked in several Georgian conversions in Bristol I can certainly identify with your last sentence. Draughty single glazed sash windows and, in my current office, a rickety Listed staircase that would be condemned as a H&S issue in any modern building (I wouldn't fancy my chances of surviving a fall against the bannister!). The floor is so uneven that when I was working there last week I was sliding off the front of my chair but the building is Georgian and in Bristol so what can you do?

I find it slightly ironic that my fairly modern and relatively energy efficient gas boiler is likely to need replacing as part of the move away from gas whereas the electricity I used, and which is a far higher proportion of my fuel cost, will probably remain reliant on gas generation.

Someone once pointed out that the 3-4mm gap around the perimeter of a non-draughtproofed sash window is roughly equivalent to having one pane of a 6 over 6 window missing. For some reason we tolerate the gaps because reasons. There are a few exemplars of listed properties that have been refurbished to meet the Enerphit standard (PassivHaus for existing buildings) so it can be done without trashing the historic value.

https://passivehouseplus.ie/magazine/upgrade/historic-london-house-gets-near-passive-transformation

"At around £1.2million the job was certainly an expensive one, but the energy works did not account for the lion’s share, by any means. "In the end the energy efficiency work was probably only a third of the budget,” Prewett says."

I don't think that work has a timescale over which it pays for itself.

That's an extreme example and the cost will have been inflated by virtue of it being a listed building and a very valuable one (Bloomsbury townhouses are somewhere between £3M and £20M) at that. On the other hand if people are happy dropping £20k on a new kitchen, which they won't ever see the return on, why should the sticks and carrots not be put in place to encourage people to drop similar money on reducing their energy use. The paying for itself in X years is a nice to have if you can but not essential.

Without big carrots or massive energy price hikes, it's not going to be reducing energy usage that gets people in old houses to do it (from this sample of one). It's making the house not feel cold every winter.

The new kitchen and an increase in comfort both give that value in return. If it's just reducing energy usage - that would have to more than pay for itself financially to compensate for the disruption.

We had a load of stuff done at the same time as other building work, and the difference is noticeable, but it costs.

rjsterry

kingstongraham said:

rjsterry said:

kingstongraham said:

rjsterry said:

Pross said:

rjsterry said:

Pross said:

rjsterry said:

surrey_commuter said:

So let's all imagine we are the populist PM with a magic money tree what would each of us do to stay popular when the electorate is faced with a potential doubling of their power bills costing some an extra £1k a year?

Testiculating until post-COP is a given

Keeping the SVR cap in place and nationalising supply companies as they go bankrupt would be a good leftie solution.

Abolishing green levies could save consumers up to a third and if replaced (with a vague promise) by general taxation would be far less regressive

I am not a populist, but would let this particular fluctuation run its course. Nobody insulated anything before the '73 Oil crisis. If you are going to be a big state PM you could do a lot worse than a big hike in the Building Regs and a requirement to retro fit to existing buildings. 80% of the buildings we will use for the next century are already standing. You can offer whatever grants/loans people need to pay for this.

Is insulation still that big an issue? We were entitled to free insulation when my daughter was having chemo and when the company came around to look at our early 70s Barratt house there was nothing left they could do (I think our lost insulation id probably a lot thinner that current regulations but going to the new standard would mean it would no longer give us any storage). Our garage conversion is a problem though - single skin blockwork and flat roof that is heated by a couple of oil filled electric radiators - it costs me a fortune in eletricity already!

I think this is a good example of the problem. It's not just insulation - although the number of properties with 9" solid brick walls and a bit of ragged loft insulation continues to surprise me. For each house or type there will be a different mix of insulation, window upgrades, heating system improvements, ventilation and maybe even some micro generation to achieve the optimum carbon reduction/£. Currently this has been dumbed down to 'have your wall cavities been done?' and handing out free loft roll. It is does also need some changes to the the planning legislation: currently, single glazed sash windows have attained a semi-sacred status with some Conservation Officers and 'Heritage' still seems to trump all other concerns, which is nuts when you think of the stakes involved.

Having worked in several Georgian conversions in Bristol I can certainly identify with your last sentence. Draughty single glazed sash windows and, in my current office, a rickety Listed staircase that would be condemned as a H&S issue in any modern building (I wouldn't fancy my chances of surviving a fall against the bannister!). The floor is so uneven that when I was working there last week I was sliding off the front of my chair but the building is Georgian and in Bristol so what can you do?

I find it slightly ironic that my fairly modern and relatively energy efficient gas boiler is likely to need replacing as part of the move away from gas whereas the electricity I used, and which is a far higher proportion of my fuel cost, will probably remain reliant on gas generation.

Someone once pointed out that the 3-4mm gap around the perimeter of a non-draughtproofed sash window is roughly equivalent to having one pane of a 6 over 6 window missing. For some reason we tolerate the gaps because reasons. There are a few exemplars of listed properties that have been refurbished to meet the Enerphit standard (PassivHaus for existing buildings) so it can be done without trashing the historic value.

https://passivehouseplus.ie/magazine/upgrade/historic-london-house-gets-near-passive-transformation

"At around £1.2million the job was certainly an expensive one, but the energy works did not account for the lion’s share, by any means. "In the end the energy efficiency work was probably only a third of the budget,” Prewett says."

I don't think that work has a timescale over which it pays for itself.

That's an extreme example and the cost will have been inflated by virtue of it being a listed building and a very valuable one (Bloomsbury townhouses are somewhere between £3M and £20M) at that. On the other hand if people are happy dropping £20k on a new kitchen, which they won't ever see the return on, why should the sticks and carrots not be put in place to encourage people to drop similar money on reducing their energy use. The paying for itself in X years is a nice to have if you can but not essential.

Without big carrots or massive energy price hikes, it's not going to be reducing energy usage that gets people in old houses to do it (from this sample of one). It's making the house not feel cold every winter.

The new kitchen and an increase in comfort both give that value in return. If it's just reducing energy usage - that would have to more than pay for itself financially to compensate for the disruption.

We had a load of stuff done at the same time as other building work, and the difference is noticeable, but it costs.

Sure. I'm suggesting some big carrots. Does doubling bills not count as a massive hike? Especially if you are already on struggling to make ends meet.

Pross

rjsterry said:

Pross said:

rjsterry said:

Pross said:

rjsterry said:

surrey_commuter said:

So let's all imagine we are the populist PM with a magic money tree what would each of us do to stay popular when the electorate is faced with a potential doubling of their power bills costing some an extra £1k a year?

Testiculating until post-COP is a given

Keeping the SVR cap in place and nationalising supply companies as they go bankrupt would be a good leftie solution.

Abolishing green levies could save consumers up to a third and if replaced (with a vague promise) by general taxation would be far less regressive

I am not a populist, but would let this particular fluctuation run its course. Nobody insulated anything before the '73 Oil crisis. If you are going to be a big state PM you could do a lot worse than a big hike in the Building Regs and a requirement to retro fit to existing buildings. 80% of the buildings we will use for the next century are already standing. You can offer whatever grants/loans people need to pay for this.

Is insulation still that big an issue? We were entitled to free insulation when my daughter was having chemo and when the company came around to look at our early 70s Barratt house there was nothing left they could do (I think our lost insulation id probably a lot thinner that current regulations but going to the new standard would mean it would no longer give us any storage). Our garage conversion is a problem though - single skin blockwork and flat roof that is heated by a couple of oil filled electric radiators - it costs me a fortune in eletricity already!

I think this is a good example of the problem. It's not just insulation - although the number of properties with 9" solid brick walls and a bit of ragged loft insulation continues to surprise me. For each house or type there will be a different mix of insulation, window upgrades, heating system improvements, ventilation and maybe even some micro generation to achieve the optimum carbon reduction/£. Currently this has been dumbed down to 'have your wall cavities been done?' and handing out free loft roll. It is does also need some changes to the the planning legislation: currently, single glazed sash windows have attained a semi-sacred status with some Conservation Officers and 'Heritage' still seems to trump all other concerns, which is nuts when you think of the stakes involved.

Having worked in several Georgian conversions in Bristol I can certainly identify with your last sentence. Draughty single glazed sash windows and, in my current office, a rickety Listed staircase that would be condemned as a H&S issue in any modern building (I wouldn't fancy my chances of surviving a fall against the bannister!). The floor is so uneven that when I was working there last week I was sliding off the front of my chair but the building is Georgian and in Bristol so what can you do?

I find it slightly ironic that my fairly modern and relatively energy efficient gas boiler is likely to need replacing as part of the move away from gas whereas the electricity I used, and which is a far higher proportion of my fuel cost, will probably remain reliant on gas generation.

Someone once pointed out that the 3-4mm gap around the perimeter of a non-draughtproofed sash window is roughly equivalent to having one pane of a 6 over 6 window missing. For some reason we tolerate the gaps because reasons. There are a few exemplars of listed properties that have been refurbished to meet the Enerphit standard (PassivHaus for existing buildings) so it can be done without trashing the historic value.

https://passivehouseplus.ie/magazine/upgrade/historic-london-house-gets-near-passive-transformation

Is Code For Sustainable Homes still a thing? I know at one point when I was doing a lot of residential work there was a huge amount of effort going into getting credits (things like putting a washing line in gardens and providing a shed as that would provide a storage space for a bike and therefore the new owner would cycle everywhere). It always seemed to be something that the developers were having to do for the social housing element whilst their open market stuff didn't need to bother. Lots of fudging seemed to go on to get BREEAM ratings to teh correct levels too, I remember one supermarket where the contractor was retrofitting holes in the shell as it had been made so airtight to satisfy BREEAM that it wasn't providing the necessary ventilation or something along those lines!

john80

rick_chasey said:

john80 said:

You guys are really getting your tinfoil hats on the go. The real answer to this problem is for the UK to go down a route of having some energy and food security and reversing some of the globalisation agenda if you can' handle some rough patches.

Building resilience through international co-operation and sensible planning is a better idea than having a foreign policy that is orientated around mistrust of the world.

When you are bending over things run smoothly. It might have been better to spend the last 30 years not reducing gas storage capacity and production in the UK. But yeah you keep thinking Russia has our best interests at heart and are a reliable negotiating partner.

john80

kingstongraham said:

john80 said:

You guys are really getting your tinfoil hats on the go. The real answer to this problem is for the UK to go down a route of having some energy and food security and reversing some of the globalisation agenda if you can' handle some rough patches.

How does that happen before this winter?

It doesn't bit it might help in future. Guess what infrastructure is not like buying Chinese toys and peddling them in a shop.

rjsterry

Pross said:

rjsterry said:

Pross said:

rjsterry said:

Pross said:

rjsterry said:

surrey_commuter said:

So let's all imagine we are the populist PM with a magic money tree what would each of us do to stay popular when the electorate is faced with a potential doubling of their power bills costing some an extra £1k a year?

Testiculating until post-COP is a given

Keeping the SVR cap in place and nationalising supply companies as they go bankrupt would be a good leftie solution.

Abolishing green levies could save consumers up to a third and if replaced (with a vague promise) by general taxation would be far less regressive

I am not a populist, but would let this particular fluctuation run its course. Nobody insulated anything before the '73 Oil crisis. If you are going to be a big state PM you could do a lot worse than a big hike in the Building Regs and a requirement to retro fit to existing buildings. 80% of the buildings we will use for the next century are already standing. You can offer whatever grants/loans people need to pay for this.

Is insulation still that big an issue? We were entitled to free insulation when my daughter was having chemo and when the company came around to look at our early 70s Barratt house there was nothing left they could do (I think our lost insulation id probably a lot thinner that current regulations but going to the new standard would mean it would no longer give us any storage). Our garage conversion is a problem though - single skin blockwork and flat roof that is heated by a couple of oil filled electric radiators - it costs me a fortune in eletricity already!

I think this is a good example of the problem. It's not just insulation - although the number of properties with 9" solid brick walls and a bit of ragged loft insulation continues to surprise me. For each house or type there will be a different mix of insulation, window upgrades, heating system improvements, ventilation and maybe even some micro generation to achieve the optimum carbon reduction/£. Currently this has been dumbed down to 'have your wall cavities been done?' and handing out free loft roll. It is does also need some changes to the the planning legislation: currently, single glazed sash windows have attained a semi-sacred status with some Conservation Officers and 'Heritage' still seems to trump all other concerns, which is nuts when you think of the stakes involved.

Having worked in several Georgian conversions in Bristol I can certainly identify with your last sentence. Draughty single glazed sash windows and, in my current office, a rickety Listed staircase that would be condemned as a H&S issue in any modern building (I wouldn't fancy my chances of surviving a fall against the bannister!). The floor is so uneven that when I was working there last week I was sliding off the front of my chair but the building is Georgian and in Bristol so what can you do?

I find it slightly ironic that my fairly modern and relatively energy efficient gas boiler is likely to need replacing as part of the move away from gas whereas the electricity I used, and which is a far higher proportion of my fuel cost, will probably remain reliant on gas generation.

Someone once pointed out that the 3-4mm gap around the perimeter of a non-draughtproofed sash window is roughly equivalent to having one pane of a 6 over 6 window missing. For some reason we tolerate the gaps because reasons. There are a few exemplars of listed properties that have been refurbished to meet the Enerphit standard (PassivHaus for existing buildings) so it can be done without trashing the historic value.

https://passivehouseplus.ie/magazine/upgrade/historic-london-house-gets-near-passive-transformation

Is Code For Sustainable Homes still a thing? I know at one point when I was doing a lot of residential work there was a huge amount of effort going into getting credits (things like putting a washing line in gardens and providing a shed as that would provide a storage space for a bike and therefore the new owner would cycle everywhere). It always seemed to be something that the developers were having to do for the social housing element whilst their open market stuff didn't need to bother. Lots of fudging seemed to go on to get BREEAM ratings to teh correct levels too, I remember one supermarket where the contractor was retrofitting holes in the shell as it had been made so airtight to satisfy BREEAM that it wasn't providing the necessary ventilation or something along those lines!

CSH was binned by Cameron in 2015. So much for hug a huskie. It wasn't perfect and was a bit tick-box-y but planners could insist that homes met a certain standard above the Building Regs minimum standards. Now there's just the Building Regs and that is poorly enforced.
The story about the ventilation sounds horribly believable. Why pay for a ventilation system when you can just knock holes in a wall.

kingstongraham

john80 said:

kingstongraham said:

john80 said:

You guys are really getting your tinfoil hats on the go. The real answer to this problem is for the UK to go down a route of having some energy and food security and reversing some of the globalisation agenda if you can' handle some rough patches.

How does that happen before this winter?

It doesn't bit it might help in future. Guess what infrastructure is not like buying Chinese toys and peddling them in a shop.

But what should they do now?

rick_chasey

john80 said:

rick_chasey said:

john80 said:

You guys are really getting your tinfoil hats on the go. The real answer to this problem is for the UK to go down a route of having some energy and food security and reversing some of the globalisation agenda if you can' handle some rough patches.

Building resilience through international co-operation and sensible planning is a better idea than having a foreign policy that is orientated around mistrust of the world.

When you are bending over things run smoothly.

I feel this is a rather deeper insight into your psyche

Jezyboy

Feel like someone would get on well with the hedgehog spotter.

rick_chasey

https://twitter.com/javierblas/status/1439986043554607104?s=21

(Side note I’ve had drinks with Javier - not the biggest fan)

rick_chasey

Just read that some of the suppliers are screwed because they hadn’t hedged their wholesale prices but are locked into their customer prices.

Madness.

briantrumpet

rick_chasey said:

Just read that some of the suppliers are screwed because they hadn’t hedged their wholesale prices but are locked into their customer prices.

Madness.

You really ought to read Private Eye (or if you do already, read it more thoroughly) - they really have been on this for absolutely ages, and have been predicting that many of the smaller suppliers were going to come unstuck, even before this recent price surge.

Jezyboy

rick_chasey said:

Just read that some of the suppliers are screwed because they hadn’t hedged their wholesale prices but are locked into their customer prices.

Madness.

Presumably when you operate in a market where the only possible differentiator is price, all you can do is seek cost savings and at a certain point these become completely irresponsible.

rick_chasey

briantrumpet said:

rick_chasey said:

Just read that some of the suppliers are screwed because they hadn’t hedged their wholesale prices but are locked into their customer prices.

Madness.

You really ought to read Private Eye (or if you do already, read it more thoroughly) - they really have been on this for absolutely ages, and have been predicting that many of the smaller suppliers were going to come unstuck, even before this recent price surge.

Honestly after the FT and the Economist I don't really want to spend much more on news.

Fair play to them - I'm surprised the regulator allowed it.

kingstongraham

Jezyboy said:

rick_chasey said:

Just read that some of the suppliers are screwed because they hadn’t hedged their wholesale prices but are locked into their customer prices.

Madness.

Presumably when you operate in a market where the only possible differentiator is price, all you can do is seek cost savings and at a certain point these become completely irresponsible.

Yes, *if you are aiming for price sensitive switchers*, and pay for the hedge and someone else doesn't, your price is higher and you don't sell anything. So you underhedge and then you cross your fingers that this doesn't happen.

briantrumpet

rick_chasey said:

briantrumpet said:

rick_chasey said:

Just read that some of the suppliers are screwed because they hadn’t hedged their wholesale prices but are locked into their customer prices.

Madness.

You really ought to read Private Eye (or if you do already, read it more thoroughly) - they really have been on this for absolutely ages, and have been predicting that many of the smaller suppliers were going to come unstuck, even before this recent price surge.

Honestly after the FT and the Economist I don't really want to spend much more on news.

Fair play to them - I'm surprised the regulator allowed it.

It's often way ahead of others on stuff like this, and very good on corruption. It's also very depressing sometimes. Really not very expensive at all, being fortnightly, if you subscribe. Worth every penny.

rick_chasey

briantrumpet said:

rick_chasey said:

briantrumpet said:

rick_chasey said:

Just read that some of the suppliers are screwed because they hadn’t hedged their wholesale prices but are locked into their customer prices.

Madness.

You really ought to read Private Eye (or if you do already, read it more thoroughly) - they really have been on this for absolutely ages, and have been predicting that many of the smaller suppliers were going to come unstuck, even before this recent price surge.

Honestly after the FT and the Economist I don't really want to spend much more on news.

Fair play to them - I'm surprised the regulator allowed it.

It's often way ahead of others on stuff like this, and very good on corruption. It's also very depressing sometimes. Really not very expensive at all, being fortnightly, if you subscribe. Worth every penny.

I don’t doubt that. I don’t like physical papers either and that is a barrier.