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  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 57,372 Lives Here
    What duress?
  • surrey_commutersurrey_commuter Posts: 14,602



    Frost now arguing the deal was done under duress


    It was, wasn't it?

    What's the definition of "under duress"?
    when you set an artificial deadline to create a cliff edge which you refuse to extend then you are doing a deal under duress.

    It could be that he is doing a Dom and turning on his old boss
  • TheBigBeanTheBigBean Posts: 14,066



    Frost now arguing the deal was done under duress


    It was, wasn't it?

    What's the definition of "under duress"?
    when you set an artificial deadline to create a cliff edge which you refuse to extend then you are doing a deal under duress.

    It could be that he is doing a Dom and turning on his old boss
    Remember this is about the withdrawal agreement. The deadline wasn't artificial. It could have been extended, but the EU27 weren't showing much enthusiasm unless there the UK did more accepting of the sea border.
  • kingstongrahamkingstongraham Posts: 17,783
    edited 20 May



    Frost now arguing the deal was done under duress


    It was, wasn't it?

    What's the definition of "under duress"?
    when you set an artificial deadline to create a cliff edge which you refuse to extend then you are doing a deal under duress.

    It could be that he is doing a Dom and turning on his old boss
    Remember this is about the withdrawal agreement. The deadline wasn't artificial. It could have been extended, but the EU27 weren't showing much enthusiasm unless there the UK did more accepting of the sea border.
    When was the NI protocol agreed?

    The issue of checks between Britain and NI is not new. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-49909866 October 2019 "All agricultural, food or animal products entering Northern Ireland from the rest of the UK will have to go through a Border Inspection Post. That's a bit of infrastructure where goods can be physically examined and paperwork checked."
  • TheBigBeanTheBigBean Posts: 14,066



    Frost now arguing the deal was done under duress


    It was, wasn't it?

    What's the definition of "under duress"?
    when you set an artificial deadline to create a cliff edge which you refuse to extend then you are doing a deal under duress.

    It could be that he is doing a Dom and turning on his old boss
    Remember this is about the withdrawal agreement. The deadline wasn't artificial. It could have been extended, but the EU27 weren't showing much enthusiasm unless there the UK did more accepting of the sea border.
    When was the NI protocol agreed?

    The issue of checks between Britain and NI is not new. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-49909866 October 2019 "All agricultural, food or animal products entering Northern Ireland from the rest of the UK will have to go through a Border Inspection Post. That's a bit of infrastructure where goods can be physically examined and paperwork checked."
    The protocol was part of the withdrawal agreement. It's implementation is ongoing.
  • tailwindhometailwindhome Posts: 16,674
    This is the Bike Radar Cake Stop Forum

    Today is Thursday

    Believe that a farther shore
    Is reachable from here.
    Believe in miracles
    And cures and healing wells
  • kingstongrahamkingstongraham Posts: 17,783



    Frost now arguing the deal was done under duress


    It was, wasn't it?

    What's the definition of "under duress"?
    when you set an artificial deadline to create a cliff edge which you refuse to extend then you are doing a deal under duress.

    It could be that he is doing a Dom and turning on his old boss
    Remember this is about the withdrawal agreement. The deadline wasn't artificial. It could have been extended, but the EU27 weren't showing much enthusiasm unless there the UK did more accepting of the sea border.
    When was the NI protocol agreed?

    The issue of checks between Britain and NI is not new. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-49909866 October 2019 "All agricultural, food or animal products entering Northern Ireland from the rest of the UK will have to go through a Border Inspection Post. That's a bit of infrastructure where goods can be physically examined and paperwork checked."
    The protocol was part of the withdrawal agreement. It's implementation is ongoing.
    But how can something that was agreed and understood in 2019, and claimed as a great deal, have been agreed under duress?
  • briantrumpetbriantrumpet Posts: 7,621



    Frost now arguing the deal was done under duress


    It was, wasn't it?

    What's the definition of "under duress"?
    when you set an artificial deadline to create a cliff edge which you refuse to extend then you are doing a deal under duress.

    It could be that he is doing a Dom and turning on his old boss
    Remember this is about the withdrawal agreement. The deadline wasn't artificial. It could have been extended, but the EU27 weren't showing much enthusiasm unless there the UK did more accepting of the sea border.
    When was the NI protocol agreed?

    The issue of checks between Britain and NI is not new. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-49909866 October 2019 "All agricultural, food or animal products entering Northern Ireland from the rest of the UK will have to go through a Border Inspection Post. That's a bit of infrastructure where goods can be physically examined and paperwork checked."
    The protocol was part of the withdrawal agreement. It's implementation is ongoing.
    But how can something that was agreed and understood in 2019, and claimed as a great deal, have been agreed under duress?

    Because the unicorns didn't appear on cue?

  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 57,372 Lives Here



    Frost now arguing the deal was done under duress


    It was, wasn't it?

    What's the definition of "under duress"?
    when you set an artificial deadline to create a cliff edge which you refuse to extend then you are doing a deal under duress.

    It could be that he is doing a Dom and turning on his old boss
    Remember this is about the withdrawal agreement. The deadline wasn't artificial. It could have been extended, but the EU27 weren't showing much enthusiasm unless there the UK did more accepting of the sea border.
    Isn't that just a negotiating tactic?

    Duress is an implicit admission of the balance of power in the talks.
  • TheBigBeanTheBigBean Posts: 14,066



    Isn't that just a negotiating tactic?

    No. I think I read somewhere that the UK believed the EU commission would never agree to let NI follow different rules, so the choice was between no deal or trying to get something that could be worked on and playing the long game. The inclusion of the vote after four years and the role of the joint committee were part of the latter.
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 57,372 Lives Here



    Isn't that just a negotiating tactic?

    No. I think I read somewhere that the UK believed the EU commission would never agree to let NI follow different rules, so the choice was between no deal or trying to get something that could be worked on and playing the long game. The inclusion of the vote after four years and the role of the joint committee were part of the latter.
    Are you saying the UK played chicken and lost here?
  • TheBigBeanTheBigBean Posts: 14,066



    Isn't that just a negotiating tactic?

    No. I think I read somewhere that the UK believed the EU commission would never agree to let NI follow different rules, so the choice was between no deal or trying to get something that could be worked on and playing the long game. The inclusion of the vote after four years and the role of the joint committee were part of the latter.
    Are you saying the UK played chicken and lost here?
    You mean by saying that they would never accept it? Yes, they probably did, but so did the EU. Conceding the vote was a massive move, but again, they probably concluded that the UK would walk without it.
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 57,372 Lives Here
    edited 20 May
    What you're describing to me is just the way negotiations work. You can be disappointed either side takes a more or less hostile position in it, but no-one is obliged to be reasonable.

    Ultimately that's the risk you run when you leave the EU right? It was a well known risk.
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 57,372 Lives Here


    Hannan getting his censored handed to him
  • TheBigBeanTheBigBean Posts: 14,066
    Ireland's not in the EU? He needed to go bigger on his numbers? What's the point?
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 57,372 Lives Here

    Ireland's not in the EU? He needed to go bigger on his numbers? What's the point?

    Hannan has a long record of making stats up in these interviews. About time someone called him out on it.
  • TheBigBeanTheBigBean Posts: 14,066

    Ireland's not in the EU? He needed to go bigger on his numbers? What's the point?

    Hannan has a long record of making stats up in these interviews. About time someone called him out on it.
    Not this one.

    https://britishmeatindustry.org/industry/imports-exports/beef-veal/

    The UK currently imports around 35 per cent of the beef and veal it consumes or around 250,000 tonnes annually. Imports have been fairly stable recently, although increasing somewhat in the last two years, partly due to the weak euro. The dominant supplier has always been Ireland, with a market share of almost 70 per cent. No other country accounts for more than eight per cent of UK imports. The EU supplies over 90 per cent of imports, with no single non-EU country supplying more than three per cent of the total.
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 57,372 Lives Here
    Depends what you google haha

    https://ahdb.org.uk/news/uk-beef-self-sufficiency-and-impacts-of-brexit

    In 2019, the gap between UK beef production and domestic consumption was 152,000 tonnes. In order to fill this deficit 315,000 tonnes of beef were imported, as 163,000 tonnes were exported.
  • TheBigBeanTheBigBean Posts: 14,066

    Depends what you google haha

    https://ahdb.org.uk/news/uk-beef-self-sufficiency-and-impacts-of-brexit

    In 2019, the gap between UK beef production and domestic consumption was 152,000 tonnes. In order to fill this deficit 315,000 tonnes of beef were imported, as 163,000 tonnes were exported.

    I'm struggling to be outraged. He is making a fair point. If you want to be critical, he is ignoring the 65% of domestically produced beef which would be affected by Aus imports.
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 57,372 Lives Here
    edited 20 May
    I'm not outraged. I think Hannan is a charlatan that makes BoJo look like a paragon of the truth by comparison and I like seeing him be called out on air.

    He is absolutely shameless.
  • surrey_commutersurrey_commuter Posts: 14,602

    Ireland's not in the EU? He needed to go bigger on his numbers? What's the point?

    I really do not get the point.
  • TheBigBeanTheBigBean Posts: 14,066

    Ireland's not in the EU? He needed to go bigger on his numbers? What's the point?

    I really do not get the point.
    Hannan's point, I presume, is that virtually all imported beef currently comes from the EU, and why shouldn't the UK allow other countries to compete? Does it matter if it is Aussie beef or Irish beef. He does not seem to be consider the 65% of the market that comes from the UK that may no longer come from the UK. I didn't listen to the interview though.

    Rick's point is that he doesn't like Hannan. So there.
  • surrey_commutersurrey_commuter Posts: 14,602

    Ireland's not in the EU? He needed to go bigger on his numbers? What's the point?

    I really do not get the point.
    Hannan's point, I presume, is that virtually all imported beef currently comes from the EU, and why shouldn't the UK allow other countries to compete? Does it matter if it is Aussie beef or Irish beef. He does not seem to be consider the 65% of the market that comes from the UK that may no longer come from the UK. I didn't listen to the interview though.

    Rick's point is that he doesn't like Hannan. So there.
    But what is the other chap's point when he triumphantly says the EU number is much larger and 70% is Ireland?
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 57,372 Lives Here
    I do find it quite strange that on the one hand we have parties, MPs and decent sections of the population concerned about sustainability and climate change and then on the other we have people arguing about beef imports from literally the other side of the world.

    In case beef wasn't problematic enough for climate change.

    I am fairly relaxed about reducing the barriers to trade for farming (but fully admit I know little about it), but surely longer term we should be focused on improving the footprint of our consumption and globalised food, and particularly meat, is not really going to help.
  • TheBigBeanTheBigBean Posts: 14,066

    Ireland's not in the EU? He needed to go bigger on his numbers? What's the point?

    I really do not get the point.
    Hannan's point, I presume, is that virtually all imported beef currently comes from the EU, and why shouldn't the UK allow other countries to compete? Does it matter if it is Aussie beef or Irish beef. He does not seem to be consider the 65% of the market that comes from the UK that may no longer come from the UK. I didn't listen to the interview though.

    Rick's point is that he doesn't like Hannan. So there.
    But what is the other chap's point when he triumphantly says the EU number is much larger and 70% is Ireland?
    His point is just a need to show off his expert knowledge whether or not it is accurate or even relevant to the discussion. He'd fit in well on Cake Stop.

    I presume at some point in your life you have been on a tour of something in North America. He's the guy that asks the question at the end of the tour that isn't really a question, but an attempt to show off his intellect and knowledge. Invariably, those aren't the attributes on show to everyone else.


  • JezyboyJezyboy Posts: 1,003
    edited 20 May

    I do find it quite strange that on the one hand we have parties, MPs and decent sections of the population concerned about sustainability and climate change and then on the other we have people arguing about beef imports from literally the other side of the world.

    In case beef wasn't problematic enough for climate change.

    I am fairly relaxed about reducing the barriers to trade for farming (but fully admit I know little about it), but surely longer term we should be focused on improving the footprint of our consumption and globalised food, and particularly meat, is not really going to help.

    Someone on reddit was pointing to a life cycle analysis showing that welsh lamb was worse than importing frozen from NZ.

    Basically the food miles part can be a red herring.. meat is so awful for the environment that shipping it doesn't matter!

    Personally I think you can play plenty of tunes, with the data so I'd be sceptical.
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 57,372 Lives Here
    Jezyboy said:

    I do find it quite strange that on the one hand we have parties, MPs and decent sections of the population concerned about sustainability and climate change and then on the other we have people arguing about beef imports from literally the other side of the world.

    In case beef wasn't problematic enough for climate change.

    I am fairly relaxed about reducing the barriers to trade for farming (but fully admit I know little about it), but surely longer term we should be focused on improving the footprint of our consumption and globalised food, and particularly meat, is not really going to help.

    Someone on reddit was pointing to a life cycle analysis showing that welsh lamb was worse than importing frozen from NZ.

    Basically the food miles part can be a red herring.. meat is so awful for the environment that shipping it doesn't matter!

    Personally I think you can play plenty of tunes, with the data so I'd be sceptical.
    Sure, I'm not saying automatically Aussie beef > Irish beef when it comes to carbon footprints but common sense tells me there's an obvious advantage local food has...
  • TheBigBeanTheBigBean Posts: 14,066
    Jezyboy said:

    I do find it quite strange that on the one hand we have parties, MPs and decent sections of the population concerned about sustainability and climate change and then on the other we have people arguing about beef imports from literally the other side of the world.

    In case beef wasn't problematic enough for climate change.

    I am fairly relaxed about reducing the barriers to trade for farming (but fully admit I know little about it), but surely longer term we should be focused on improving the footprint of our consumption and globalised food, and particularly meat, is not really going to help.

    Someone on reddit was pointing to a life cycle analysis showing that welsh lamb was worse than importing frozen from NZ.

    Basically the food miles part can be a red herring.. meat is so awful for the environment that shipping it doesn't matter!

    Personally I think you can play plenty of tunes, with the data so I'd be sceptical.
    How are sheep bad for the environment? They graze land that can't be used for agriculture and are rounded up by dogs.
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 57,372 Lives Here
    And yes, above, I can't stand Hannan and get supremely irritated when he gets invited as he is the embodiment of getting away with it because you present whatever snakeoil or sh!t you're pushing with a certain accent in a suit.

    He's deeply dishonest.

    Properly loathe him.
  • morstarmorstar Posts: 4,663

    I do find it quite strange that on the one hand we have parties, MPs and decent sections of the population concerned about sustainability and climate change and then on the other we have people arguing about beef imports from literally the other side of the world.

    In case beef wasn't problematic enough for climate change.

    I am fairly relaxed about reducing the barriers to trade for farming (but fully admit I know little about it), but surely longer term we should be focused on improving the footprint of our consumption and globalised food, and particularly meat, is not really going to help.

    All the indicators are that we are further outsourcing our food production in exactly the same way we have done manufacturing.

    This is not just free market driven, it is clearly a policy choice. See the proposed farming legislation that wants to encourage farmers to focus on guardianship of land rather than output.

    I find it an odd direction but am a layman in this area.
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