BREXIT 2020 - Ding Dong The Bells Are Gonna Chime!.....Well Maybe Not.

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  • Stevo_666Stevo_666 Posts: 37,110

    Stevo_666 said:

    So, who are you former Tories going to vote for? I assume none of you are stupid enough to actually vote Labour, so will it be the Lib Dem wasted vote option? In which case think who you might be inadvertently letting in...

    I would vote for Labour if that were the only way to stop the Tories in my constituency, despite thinking that Corbyn is both incompetent and dangerous (even with his incompetence). But I don't think he's as dangerous as Johnson and what the Tories have become.
    Now that would be stupid in my opinion. But it sounds like its a bit theoretical in East Devon.
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  • Stevo_666Stevo_666 Posts: 37,110
    edited December 2019

    Stevo_666 said:

    I've pretty much voted Tory in every local and general election since 1982, despite any misgivings en route.

    Now that I did not expect.
    Do you think it's just possible that you might have made incorrect assumptions?

    I do realise that a straw poll of five in some cycling forum probably won't cause the Tories to quake in their boots, but when you've got the likes of Clarke and Major advising people to vote for ABAT (anyone but a Tory), and people who have voted Tory most of their voting life arguing to bring down the Tory government, don't you think it's just possible that something is very amiss with what the Tory Party has become? As I've said before, I also find it very sad to see what's become of the Daily Telegraph - it's just a posh version of the Daily Mail now. It's hateful.

    You don't have to agree with every point of a political party's agenda, yet you can still respect it, and judge it the least worst option, if that party is respects and values reasonable dissent: that's the way you test and improve. But the Tories have utterly lost that ethos, in their rabid conversion to Brexit-mania. It's desperately sad - and almost as sad that parties that should be opposing it are led by incompetents.
    Not so much assumptions as assessing your posts on here over the last few years. You come across as a Lib Dem based on what you write.

    As I said though, careful what you vote for...
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  • Stevo_666Stevo_666 Posts: 37,110
    edited December 2019
    Also, looks like the tactical voting will all just cancel itself out, so it really would be a wasted vote:
    https://telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/12/08/tactical-voting-2019-general-election-guide-how-to/

    But each to their own.
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  • Stevo_666 said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    I've pretty much voted Tory in every local and general election since 1982, despite any misgivings en route.

    Now that I did not expect.
    Do you think it's just possible that you might have made incorrect assumptions?

    I do realise that a straw poll of five in some cycling forum probably won't cause the Tories to quake in their boots, but when you've got the likes of Clarke and Major advising people to vote for ABAT (anyone but a Tory), and people who have voted Tory most of their voting life arguing to bring down the Tory government, don't you think it's just possible that something is very amiss with what the Tory Party has become? As I've said before, I also find it very sad to see what's become of the Daily Telegraph - it's just a posh version of the Daily Mail now. It's hateful.

    You don't have to agree with every point of a political party's agenda, yet you can still respect it, and judge it the least worst option, if that party is respects and values reasonable dissent: that's the way you test and improve. But the Tories have utterly lost that ethos, in their rabid conversion to Brexit-mania. It's desperately sad - and almost as sad that parties that should be opposing it are led by incompetents.
    Not so much assumptions as assessing your posts on here over the last few years. You come across as a Lib Dem based on what you write.

    As I said though, careful what you vote for...
    Well, I'd argue that what made the Tory Party what it was, was that it was a broad enough church to include the likes of me - maybe the spectre of what the Tory Party has become has moved my perspective, but I'd argue that the Tories have moved away from including my views.

    And yes, I am being careful what I vote for: not the party that I think will screw business by trying to decouple from our largest trading bloc while pursuing the chimera of 'free trade deals' that might never materialise, and will screw those who can least afford to be screwed. Almost literally, anything is better than that. Even the loon Corbyn.
  • Stevo_666Stevo_666 Posts: 37,110

    Stevo_666 said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    I've pretty much voted Tory in every local and general election since 1982, despite any misgivings en route.

    Now that I did not expect.
    Do you think it's just possible that you might have made incorrect assumptions?

    I do realise that a straw poll of five in some cycling forum probably won't cause the Tories to quake in their boots, but when you've got the likes of Clarke and Major advising people to vote for ABAT (anyone but a Tory), and people who have voted Tory most of their voting life arguing to bring down the Tory government, don't you think it's just possible that something is very amiss with what the Tory Party has become? As I've said before, I also find it very sad to see what's become of the Daily Telegraph - it's just a posh version of the Daily Mail now. It's hateful.

    You don't have to agree with every point of a political party's agenda, yet you can still respect it, and judge it the least worst option, if that party is respects and values reasonable dissent: that's the way you test and improve. But the Tories have utterly lost that ethos, in their rabid conversion to Brexit-mania. It's desperately sad - and almost as sad that parties that should be opposing it are led by incompetents.
    Not so much assumptions as assessing your posts on here over the last few years. You come across as a Lib Dem based on what you write.

    As I said though, careful what you vote for...
    Well, I'd argue that what made the Tory Party what it was, was that it was a broad enough church to include the likes of me - maybe the spectre of what the Tory Party has become has moved my perspective, but I'd argue that the Tories have moved away from including my views.

    And yes, I am being careful what I vote for: not the party that I think will screw business by trying to decouple from our largest trading bloc while pursuing the chimera of 'free trade deals' that might never materialise, and will screw those who can least afford to be screwed. Almost literally, anything is better than that. Even the loon Corbyn.
    I reckon you are badly wrong on that and your Brexit view has probably made it difficult for you to look at it rationally.

    A Labour government of the type we have here will really screw things up badly. Tony Blair counsels against voting for them, saying 'it's not how revolutions begin that is the problem, it's how they end'. What's the saying: socialism always fails, but it never dies. We really don't want a real life reminder of the first part.
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  • briantrumpetbriantrumpet Posts: 3,936
    edited December 2019
    Stevo_666 said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    I've pretty much voted Tory in every local and general election since 1982, despite any misgivings en route.

    Now that I did not expect.
    Do you think it's just possible that you might have made incorrect assumptions?

    I do realise that a straw poll of five in some cycling forum probably won't cause the Tories to quake in their boots, but when you've got the likes of Clarke and Major advising people to vote for ABAT (anyone but a Tory), and people who have voted Tory most of their voting life arguing to bring down the Tory government, don't you think it's just possible that something is very amiss with what the Tory Party has become? As I've said before, I also find it very sad to see what's become of the Daily Telegraph - it's just a posh version of the Daily Mail now. It's hateful.

    You don't have to agree with every point of a political party's agenda, yet you can still respect it, and judge it the least worst option, if that party is respects and values reasonable dissent: that's the way you test and improve. But the Tories have utterly lost that ethos, in their rabid conversion to Brexit-mania. It's desperately sad - and almost as sad that parties that should be opposing it are led by incompetents.
    Not so much assumptions as assessing your posts on here over the last few years. You come across as a Lib Dem based on what you write.

    As I said though, careful what you vote for...
    Well, I'd argue that what made the Tory Party what it was, was that it was a broad enough church to include the likes of me - maybe the spectre of what the Tory Party has become has moved my perspective, but I'd argue that the Tories have moved away from including my views.

    And yes, I am being careful what I vote for: not the party that I think will screw business by trying to decouple from our largest trading bloc while pursuing the chimera of 'free trade deals' that might never materialise, and will screw those who can least afford to be screwed. Almost literally, anything is better than that. Even the loon Corbyn.
    I reckon you are badly wrong on that and your Brexit view has probably made it difficult for you to look at it rationally.

    A Labour government of the type we have here will really screw things up badly. Tony Blair counsels against voting for them, saying 'it's not how revolutions begin that is the problem, it's how they end'. What's the saying: socialism always fails, but it never dies. We really don't want a real life reminder of the first part.
    But, as has been said on here many times, although a government can screw things up domestically, you can vote them out in five years' time: Brexit, if it happens and screws up as I fear it will, will literally be the rest of my lifetime. I'll go for what I think is the less [email protected] option, if only by dint of its time-frame.

    I'm guessing that if you have me down as a libdem, you'd be saying just the same about all those ex-Tory ministers and Prime Minister who don't want a Tory majority - all libdems at heart?

    "I reckon you are badly wrong on that and your Brexit view has probably made it difficult for you to look at it rationally." I might say the same about you. Ironically.
  • ProssPross Posts: 21,128
    Stevo_666 said:

    So, who are you former Tories going to vote for? I assume none of you are stupid enough to actually vote Labour, so will it be the Lib Dem wasted vote option? In which case think who you might be inadvertently letting in...

    I live in a seat that has been Labour in every GE other than the first one when it was created in 1983 and which remained Labour with a pretty convincing majority earlier this year when the person who had been MP since Labour first took the seat died. I think you could argue any vote other than Labour is a waste but I'll vote Lib Den as I did in the by-election and the last GE, it's not a protest vote just a reflection that they are now the closest to representing my views. I do have the option of Plaid as well if I want to go for a protest vote though.

    UKIP were 3rd in the by-election and Brexit Party have a candidate this time so it will be interesting how they do in the vote and whether they have an impact on the Labour vote share. If we were back in Blair times I'd possibly be thinking of voting Labour which is a sign of how bad things have got!
  • Stevo_666Stevo_666 Posts: 37,110
    edited December 2019

    It's all a question of perspective, is it you that's moving... or not?

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=EXDYJldnSgs

    I think you need to move - your feelings on Brexit are so strong that you are prepared to vote for someone who in your own words is a 'loon' in order to stop it. You talk about it as if it is a logical thing to do, but to many it will simply look like you have lost the plot.
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  • Stevo_666Stevo_666 Posts: 37,110
    Pross said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    So, who are you former Tories going to vote for? I assume none of you are stupid enough to actually vote Labour, so will it be the Lib Dem wasted vote option? In which case think who you might be inadvertently letting in...

    I live in a seat that has been Labour in every GE other than the first one when it was created in 1983 and which remained Labour with a pretty convincing majority earlier this year when the person who had been MP since Labour first took the seat died. I think you could argue any vote other than Labour is a waste but I'll vote Lib Den as I did in the by-election and the last GE, it's not a protest vote just a reflection that they are now the closest to representing my views. I do have the option of Plaid as well if I want to go for a protest vote though.

    UKIP were 3rd in the by-election and Brexit Party have a candidate this time so it will be interesting how they do in the vote and whether they have an impact on the Labour vote share. If we were back in Blair times I'd possibly be thinking of voting Labour which is a sign of how bad things have got!
    Fair enough, where you live it really won't affect things as I assume they would vote for a hat stand if it had a red rosette on it but at least you are voting for who you think represents your views. I'm not so sure the hat stand brigade realise what they might be voting in though...
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  • Stevo_666 said:

    It's all a question of perspective, is it you that's moving... or not?

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=EXDYJldnSgs

    I think you need to move - your feelings on Brexit are so strong that you are prepared to vote for someone who in your own words is a 'loon' in order to stop it. You talk about it as if it is a logical thing to do, but to many it will simply look like you have lost the plot.
    You really don't understand why anyone would be so strongly opposed to Brexit, especially as it might be pushed through by the Tories, do you?
  • Stevo_666Stevo_666 Posts: 37,110
    edited December 2019

    Stevo_666 said:

    It's all a question of perspective, is it you that's moving... or not?

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=EXDYJldnSgs

    I think you need to move - your feelings on Brexit are so strong that you are prepared to vote for someone who in your own words is a 'loon' in order to stop it. You talk about it as if it is a logical thing to do, but to many it will simply look like you have lost the plot.
    You really don't understand why anyone would be so strongly opposed to Brexit, especially as it might be pushed through by the Tories, do you?
    I understand the strong feelings but not the fact that you are prepared to vote for something worse in order to stop it. As mentioned above, in your own words you are prepared to vote for a loon. Try to look at more rationally as others (such as me) who voted remain are doing

    Your cure is worse than the problem. And there's no guarantee that they would cure it as the outcome of any second referendum is far from clear.
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  • Stevo_666 said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    It's all a question of perspective, is it you that's moving... or not?

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=EXDYJldnSgs

    I think you need to move - your feelings on Brexit are so strong that you are prepared to vote for someone who in your own words is a 'loon' in order to stop it. You talk about it as if it is a logical thing to do, but to many it will simply look like you have lost the plot.
    You really don't understand why anyone would be so strongly opposed to Brexit, especially as it might be pushed through by the Tories, do you?
    I understand the strong feelings but not the fact that you are prepared to vote for something worse in order to stop it. As mentioned above, in your own words you are prepared to vote for a loon. Try to look at more rationally as others (such as me) who voted remain are doing

    Your cure is worse than the problem. And there's no guarantee that they would cure it as the outcome of any second referendum is far from clear.
    And that's where we differ, for the reasons I've stated earlier: I think the consequences of a Tory Brexit are potentially worse, for the country I want to see, and longer lasting.

    If you want to see the UK move in the direction of the US, then I can see why you'd want to be free of the restrictions that being part of the EU entails. That's not the country I want to see.

    Neither, it seems, do John Major or Ken Clarke.
  • rjsterryrjsterry Posts: 15,570
    Stevo_666 said:

    So, who are you former Tories going to vote for? I assume none of you are stupid enough to actually vote Labour, so will it be the Lib Dem wasted vote option? In which case think who you might be inadvertently letting in...

    Stevo_666 said:

    So, who are you former Tories going to vote for? I assume none of you are stupid enough to actually vote Labour, so will it be the Lib Dem wasted vote option? In which case think who you might be inadvertently letting in...

    That very much depends where you live and what you are trying to achieve.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    1980s BSA 10sp

    Liberal metropolitan, remoaner, traitor, "sympathiser", etc.
  • Stevo_666 said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    So, who are you former Tories going to vote for? I assume none of you are stupid enough to actually vote Labour, so will it be the Lib Dem wasted vote option? In which case think who you might be inadvertently letting in...

    I would vote for Labour if that were the only way to stop the Tories in my constituency, despite thinking that Corbyn is both incompetent and dangerous (even with his incompetence). But I don't think he's as dangerous as Johnson and what the Tories have become.
    Now that would be stupid in my opinion. But it sounds like its a bit theoretical in East Devon.
    Not as stupid as a person joining a political party to select a leader that they seemingly fear being prime minister...

    From where I'm sitting Johnson and Corbyn are equally unsuitable to being PM. Both campaigns have treated the public with a tremendous amount of disdain. 50,000 new nurses? Only several thousand of them already work for the NHS... These improvements can be made with no additional spending... On the other side a fully costed manefesto that suddenly gets an additonal freeby for female pensioners...

    Then there's the getting brexit done slogan! Pull the other one buddy, so far he managed to negotiate a withdrawal deal that was very similar to your predecessors deal (which he continually rubbished) but that had the great advangage of being toxic to the party they were in a confidence and supply deal with.

  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 44,147 Lives Here
    Stevo_666 said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    It's all a question of perspective, is it you that's moving... or not?

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=EXDYJldnSgs

    I think you need to move - your feelings on Brexit are so strong that you are prepared to vote for someone who in your own words is a 'loon' in order to stop it. You talk about it as if it is a logical thing to do, but to many it will simply look like you have lost the plot.
    You really don't understand why anyone would be so strongly opposed to Brexit, especially as it might be pushed through by the Tories, do you?
    I understand the strong feelings but not the fact that you are prepared to vote for something worse in order to stop it. As mentioned above, in your own words you are prepared to vote for a loon. Try to look at more rationally as others (such as me) who voted remain are doing

    Your cure is worse than the problem. And there's no guarantee that they would cure it as the outcome of any second referendum is far from clear.
    Am curious to know what policies of the Tories you rate more highly than the LDs.

    As I mentioned up thread, the endorsement from “Tommy Robinson” but not from former Tory PM John Major is hardly sending signals that this is a balanced manifesto...
  • bompingtonbompington Posts: 6,857
    Around here (Dundee west, majority 5K or so) the Nats are pretty much guaranteed to win.

    Labour and the Tories are both absurd and repellent, in their different ways; I'm not a fan of break-ups so I wouldn't vote SNP* (and on a local and personal level, the incumbent gets a mixed press which may or may not be down to scurrilous, politically motivated attacks); the LDs got a resounding 1000 votes or so last time around.

    My ideal outcome - or at least, the only one which doesn't look like outright disaster - from the GE would be a hung parliament that results in a second EU ref that votes to "Get Brexit Done" as in kick it out for good, and also sees off the Nats here in Scotland (they get really, really shirty if you point out the similarities between them and the Faragistes).

    That's a bit of a dream: even if there is a hung parliament, I wouldn't be that hopeful.

    In effect, in much the same way as I can't see anything good happening if either Lab or Con win the GE, I can't see what way I can vote that will make the slightest difference; which means that the LDs get my vote as being the closest to my opinions on the biggest issues (they're some way off on others).

    * I also get a front row seat on how pathetic their claimed emphasis on education is, along with all the other pretty poor governance they are responsible for
  • Stevo_666 said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    It's all a question of perspective, is it you that's moving... or not?

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=EXDYJldnSgs

    I think you need to move - your feelings on Brexit are so strong that you are prepared to vote for someone who in your own words is a 'loon' in order to stop it. You talk about it as if it is a logical thing to do, but to many it will simply look like you have lost the plot.
    You really don't understand why anyone would be so strongly opposed to Brexit, especially as it might be pushed through by the Tories, do you?
    I understand the strong feelings but not the fact that you are prepared to vote for something worse in order to stop it. As mentioned above, in your own words you are prepared to vote for a loon. Try to look at more rationally as others (such as me) who voted remain are doing

    Your cure is worse than the problem. And there's no guarantee that they would cure it as the outcome of any second referendum is far from clear.
    And that's where we differ, for the reasons I've stated earlier: I think the consequences of a Tory Brexit are potentially worse, for the country I want to see, and longer lasting.

    If you want to see the UK move in the direction of the US, then I can see why you'd want to be free of the restrictions that being part of the EU entails. That's not the country I want to see.

    Neither, it seems, do John Major or Ken Clarke.
    There is a limited amount of harm JC could inflict on the economy in five years so yes if I had a straight choice of JC for one term in exchange for revoke I would bite your hand off.
  • I view myself as a natural Tory as I believe in the importance of fiscal discipline and that a strong economy is paramount. I would count myself as socially liberal.

    As Grayling is my MP with an outright majority I am open to suggestions for who to vote for
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 44,147 Lives Here
    edited December 2019

    I view myself as a natural Tory as I believe in the importance of fiscal discipline and that a strong economy is paramount. I would count myself as socially liberal.

    As Grayling is my MP with an outright majority I am open to suggestions for who to vote for

    Let's go through them: You can't vote for Grayling as he is a stone cold moron. Plus, Tories have drifted a long way from pragmatic practical governance to fervent fundamentalist idealism rooted in (mispalced) British exceptionalism at the expense of all that is good and reasonable. Their Brexit plan won't make them fiscally disciplined and are not socially liberal by any reasonable measure, and they have a serious Islamophobia problem (though tbf, if you're not white it's not great under them). They froth at the mouth when they hear rule Britannia and fantasise with their hand down their trousers about being part of the D-Day landings (despite the yanks actually doing the hard graft) so much they now can't remember if they were actually there or not.

    Labour: fiscally incontinent who are relying on an innate understanding from gilt owners and lenders that the British gov't isn't, in order to enact a Venezuelan style radical societal transformation rooted in the deep understanding that the state runs everything better, making a lot of money is immoral and that the world is rigged by some shadowy super capitalist elites who want to ruin the world. And not unrelatedly, they have a serious antisemitism problem.

    Green: More fiscally incontinent than labour (can you believe it?!) but who at least practice what they preach with regard to how they treat minorities. Consider, perhaps not wrongly, that climate change is more expensive than anything a government can realistically offer. Everything else is somewhere on the spectrum between social democracy and communist, since, after all, in order to save the world, you must dictate how to do that.

    Brexit Party: single issue party for an issue that you think is the national equivalent of vowing to masturbate for the rest of your life because at least then you can climax every time, rather than having to deal with the pesky other half. Has an enormous propensity to attract far right nut-jobs and racist morons. Would probably be fascist if they had enough intellectual horsepower to do so, but they don't.

    LDs: Centrist party that, unsurprisingly, sits somewhere between the middle of Labour and the Tories (in fairness, this is a massive gaping chasm so doesn't say much). Run by what looks like a supply school teacher and exuding about the same authority. On paper, appears to have sensible policies, putting money into things that offer decent returns (childcare etc), pro-competition, anti-oligopoly etc. Is a real mish-mash of ideologies which doesn't come to surface as they're a minor party, but they have a streak of rash sandle-with-sock-wearing policies that make no sense on paper or in real life, which leads to their biggest problem, which is the people who will make up the MPs if they get elected. All the big beasts have left, and they attract folk who have no real expectation of becoming elected, and the talent reflects that. Your candidate will either cycle everywhere with high-vis-ankle-clips, a wing mirror and a 1992 helmet or they'll be a triple national double-barrel named banker who's continental European wife has made him feel guilty about making lots of money so has made him stand.
  • LongshotLongshot Posts: 587
    edited December 2019
    Stevo_666 said:

    So, who are you former Tories going to vote for? I assume none of you are stupid enough to actually vote Labour, so will it be the Lib Dem wasted vote option? In which case think who you might be inadvertently letting in...

    Doesn't matter. Beresford is in getting back whatever I do.

    I'm torn between voting Lib Dem, just in case enough people feel the same way to actually cause an upset, however unlikely or Deliberate Spoil which actually reflects how I feel.
    You can fool some of the people all of the time. Concentrate on those people.
  • I view myself as a natural Tory as I believe in the importance of fiscal discipline and that a strong economy is paramount. I would count myself as socially liberal.

    As Grayling is my MP with an outright majority I am open to suggestions for who to vote for

    Let's go through them: You can't vote for Grayling as he is a stone cold moron. Plus, Tories have drifted a long way from pragmatic practical governance to fervent fundamentalist idealism rooted in (mispalced) British exceptionalism at the expense of all that is good and reasonable. Their Brexit plan won't make them fiscally disciplined and are not socially liberal by any reasonable measure, and they have a serious Islamophobia problem (though tbf, if you're not white it's not great under them). They froth at the mouth when they hear rule Britannia and fantasise with their hand down their trousers about being part of the D-Day landings (despite the yanks actually doing the hard graft) so much they now can't remember if they were actually there or not.

    Labour: fiscally incontinent who are relying on an innate understanding from gilt owners and lenders that the British gov't isn't, in order to enact a Venezuelan style radical societal transformation rooted in the deep understanding that the state runs everything better, making a lot of money is immoral and that the world is rigged by some shadowy super capitalist elites who want to ruin the world. And not unrelatedly, they have a serious antisemitism problem.

    Green: More fiscally incontinent than labour (can you believe it?!) but who at least practice what they preach with regard to how they treat minorities. Consider, perhaps not wrongly, that climate change is more expensive than anything a government can realistically offer. Everything else is somewhere on the spectrum between social democracy and communist, since, after all, in order to save the world, you must dictate how to do that.

    Brexit Party: single issue party for an issue that you think is the national equivalent of vowing to masturbate for the rest of your life because at least then you can climax every time, rather than having to deal with the pesky other half. Has an enormous propensity to attract far right nut-jobs and racist morons. Would probably be fascist if they had enough intellectual horsepower to do so, but they don't.

    LDs: Centrist party that, unsurprisingly, sits somewhere between the middle of Labour and the Tories (in fairness, this is a massive gaping chasm so doesn't say much). Run by what looks like a supply school teacher and exuding about the same authority. On paper, appears to have sensible policies, putting money into things that offer decent returns (childcare etc), pro-competition, anti-oligopoly etc. Is a real mish-mash of ideologies which doesn't come to surface as they're a minor party, but they have a streak of rash sandle-with-sock-wearing policies that make no sense on paper or in real life, which leads to their biggest problem, which is the people who will make up the MPs if they get elected. All the big beasts have left, and they attract folk who have no real expectation of becoming elected, and the talent reflects that. Your candidate will either cycle everywhere with high-vis-ankle-clips, a wing mirror and a 1992 helmet or they'll be a triple national double-barrel named banker who's continental European wife has made him feel guilty about making lots of money so has made him stand.
    A fine rant. Now throw in our medieval electoral system and we are left with spoiling the ballot paper or not voting
  • LongshotLongshot Posts: 587

    I view myself as a natural Tory as I believe in the importance of fiscal discipline and that a strong economy is paramount. I would count myself as socially liberal.

    As Grayling is my MP with an outright majority I am open to suggestions for who to vote for

    Let's go through them: You can't vote for Grayling as he is a stone cold moron. Plus, Tories have drifted a long way from pragmatic practical governance to fervent fundamentalist idealism rooted in (mispalced) British exceptionalism at the expense of all that is good and reasonable. Their Brexit plan won't make them fiscally disciplined and are not socially liberal by any reasonable measure, and they have a serious Islamophobia problem (though tbf, if you're not white it's not great under them). They froth at the mouth when they hear rule Britannia and fantasise with their hand down their trousers about being part of the D-Day landings (despite the yanks actually doing the hard graft) so much they now can't remember if they were actually there or not.

    Labour: fiscally incontinent who are relying on an innate understanding from gilt owners and lenders that the British gov't isn't, in order to enact a Venezuelan style radical societal transformation rooted in the deep understanding that the state runs everything better, making a lot of money is immoral and that the world is rigged by some shadowy super capitalist elites who want to ruin the world. And not unrelatedly, they have a serious antisemitism problem.

    Green: More fiscally incontinent than labour (can you believe it?!) but who at least practice what they preach with regard to how they treat minorities. Consider, perhaps not wrongly, that climate change is more expensive than anything a government can realistically offer. Everything else is somewhere on the spectrum between social democracy and communist, since, after all, in order to save the world, you must dictate how to do that.

    Brexit Party: single issue party for an issue that you think is the national equivalent of vowing to masturbate for the rest of your life because at least then you can climax every time, rather than having to deal with the pesky other half. Has an enormous propensity to attract far right nut-jobs and racist morons. Would probably be fascist if they had enough intellectual horsepower to do so, but they don't.

    LDs: Centrist party that, unsurprisingly, sits somewhere between the middle of Labour and the Tories (in fairness, this is a massive gaping chasm so doesn't say much). Run by what looks like a supply school teacher and exuding about the same authority. On paper, appears to have sensible policies, putting money into things that offer decent returns (childcare etc), pro-competition, anti-oligopoly etc. Is a real mish-mash of ideologies which doesn't come to surface as they're a minor party, but they have a streak of rash sandle-with-sock-wearing policies that make no sense on paper or in real life, which leads to their biggest problem, which is the people who will make up the MPs if they get elected. All the big beasts have left, and they attract folk who have no real expectation of becoming elected, and the talent reflects that. Your candidate will either cycle everywhere with high-vis-ankle-clips, a wing mirror and a 1992 helmet or they'll be a triple national double-barrel named banker who's continental European wife has made him feel guilty about making lots of money so has made him stand.
    That, Sir, is a fine piece of work. Well done. That pretty much sums up my viewon each of the parties mentioned.
    You can fool some of the people all of the time. Concentrate on those people.
  • elbowlohelbowloh Posts: 1,994
    Does that imply that the British public see untrustworthiness and being out of touch as the qualities they expect to see in a Prime Minister?
    Felt F1 2014
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  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 44,147 Lives Here
    It shows that a lot of people no longer care about things like integrity or respecting the democratic institutions that have helped the UK prosper over a couple of centuries, and that they just want their political ends met regardless of the means.

    That's how I read it anyway.
  • TheBigBeanTheBigBean Posts: 8,359


    Green: More fiscally incontinent than labour (can you believe it?!) but who at least practice what they preach with regard to how they treat minorities. Consider, perhaps not wrongly, that climate change is more expensive than anything a government can realistically offer. Everything else is somewhere on the spectrum between social democracy and communist, since, after all, in order to save the world, you must dictate how to do that.

    The Green party are very frustrating. They should be gaining loads of votes on the back of the increased focus on green policies. Instead, they spend their time going on about other issues and alienating potential voters.

    I understand they don't want to be seen as a single issue party, but any opinion on anything should be driven by the core belief in green stuff.
  • https://lordashcroftpolls.com/2019/12/hes-just-a-craven-opportunist-shes-a-bit-militant-for-me-i-want-it-over-and-done-with-now-my-final-election-focus-groups-in-bishop-auckland-warwick-leamington-and-wimbledon/#more-16332

    "If, when it was all over, Boris Johnson came to your house for dinner, what would he be like? “Good value, I reckon. Give him a couple of glasses of wine and he’d be the life and soul of the party;” “Polite but aggressive in his opinions. It would be The Boris Show;” “He’d knock something over and spill the wine everywhere;” “He’d offend your dog;” “He’d be good company for about twenty minutes, but I think you’d get fed up with him.” ... “He’d stay the night on the sofa;” “Yeah, with your daughter.”



    What about Jeremy Corbyn? “He’d probably take his shoes off at the door, which Boris wouldn’t.” What would he bring? ... “He wouldn’t bring anything, he’d take something. He’d go to your fridge and take a bottle of wine out.”
    and then the next thing you know
  • pblakeneypblakeney Posts: 9,975
    From the BBC news webpage comments section.

    "I have an idea which would solve the border / customs / backstop issue at a stroke.

    Make Southern Ireland part of GB again, then there would be no EU border within the British Isles. This could be achieved by the passing of relevant legislation in Westminster once the new Government is formed."

    Parody or really scarily stupid and ignorant?
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • Stevo_666Stevo_666 Posts: 37,110

    Stevo_666 said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    It's all a question of perspective, is it you that's moving... or not?

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=EXDYJldnSgs

    I think you need to move - your feelings on Brexit are so strong that you are prepared to vote for someone who in your own words is a 'loon' in order to stop it. You talk about it as if it is a logical thing to do, but to many it will simply look like you have lost the plot.
    You really don't understand why anyone would be so strongly opposed to Brexit, especially as it might be pushed through by the Tories, do you?
    I understand the strong feelings but not the fact that you are prepared to vote for something worse in order to stop it. As mentioned above, in your own words you are prepared to vote for a loon. Try to look at more rationally as others (such as me) who voted remain are doing

    Your cure is worse than the problem. And there's no guarantee that they would cure it as the outcome of any second referendum is far from clear.
    And that's where we differ, for the reasons I've stated earlier: I think the consequences of a Tory Brexit are potentially worse, for the country I want to see, and longer lasting.

    If you want to see the UK move in the direction of the US, then I can see why you'd want to be free of the restrictions that being part of the EU entails. That's not the country I want to see.

    Neither, it seems, do John Major or Ken Clarke.
    So you might vote Labour, get a hard left socialist government with all the downsides that entails and possibly also get Brexit? Hmmm...
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  • Stevo_666Stevo_666 Posts: 37,110

    Stevo_666 said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    It's all a question of perspective, is it you that's moving... or not?

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=EXDYJldnSgs

    I think you need to move - your feelings on Brexit are so strong that you are prepared to vote for someone who in your own words is a 'loon' in order to stop it. You talk about it as if it is a logical thing to do, but to many it will simply look like you have lost the plot.
    You really don't understand why anyone would be so strongly opposed to Brexit, especially as it might be pushed through by the Tories, do you?
    I understand the strong feelings but not the fact that you are prepared to vote for something worse in order to stop it. As mentioned above, in your own words you are prepared to vote for a loon. Try to look at more rationally as others (such as me) who voted remain are doing

    Your cure is worse than the problem. And there's no guarantee that they would cure it as the outcome of any second referendum is far from clear.
    Am curious to know what policies of the Tories you rate more highly than the LDs.

    As I mentioned up thread, the endorsement from “Tommy Robinson” but not from former Tory PM John Major is hardly sending signals that this is a balanced manifesto...
    I've only looked at the manifestos of the major parties so you'd need to sum up the main differences for me to comment.
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