BREXIT - Is This Really Still Rumbling On? 😴

rjsterry

surrey_commuter said:

Can I check that we are all in favour of the state providing fast broadband to every household? Seems like a classic example of using Govt to borrow at negligible rates to get a boost in productivity.
Whilst no Corbyn supporter I am starting to think that the media just ridicule everything he says. Assuming that this forum is pretty centrist then he seems on message.

Of course. The hysterical reaction from the Tories shows they were caught on the hop. TBF the proposed nationalisation of Openreach is the bit that has raised eyebrows. Clearly just leaving it to the market hasn't worked - UK coverage is embarrassing - but whether that requires nationalisation is another question.

kingstongraham

surrey_commuter said:

Can I check that we are all in favour of the state providing fast broadband to every household? Seems like a classic example of using Govt to borrow at negligible rates to get a boost in productivity.
Whilst no Corbyn supporter I am starting to think that the media just ridicule everything he says. Assuming that this forum is pretty centrist then he seems on message.

Definitely not against the principle. Seems like the same concept as roads - they are just there for the public good.

rjsterry

rjsterry said:

surrey_commuter said:

Can I check that we are all in favour of the state providing fast broadband to every household? Seems like a classic example of using Govt to borrow at negligible rates to get a boost in productivity.
Whilst no Corbyn supporter I am starting to think that the media just ridicule everything he says. Assuming that this forum is pretty centrist then he seems on message.

Of course. The hysterical reaction from the Tories, shrieking about communism, etc. shows they were caught on the hop and realise this will cut through. TBF the proposed nationalisation of Openreach is the bit that has raised eyebrows. Clearly just leaving it to the market hasn't worked - UK coverage is embarrassing - but whether that requires nationalisation is another question.

Pross

Agree that fast internet for all would be a good thing but as above I'm more concerned about nationalisation and not sure the idea of paying for it by taxing the likes of Amazon really works. Unfortunately nationalise and tax big corporations falls into the hands of ridicule by a mainly right wing media.

One other concern I have (at risk of sounding like a member of the tinfoil hat brigade) is that presumably the Government, by their Openreach proxy, would become our ISP as why would any other company provide services when the competition is free. Would we then be in a position where the state could theoretically control our internet usage?

surrey_commuter

rjsterry said:

surrey_commuter said:

Can I check that we are all in favour of the state providing fast broadband to every household? Seems like a classic example of using Govt to borrow at negligible rates to get a boost in productivity.
Whilst no Corbyn supporter I am starting to think that the media just ridicule everything he says. Assuming that this forum is pretty centrist then he seems on message.

Of course. The hysterical reaction from the Tories shows they were caught on the hop. TBF the proposed nationalisation of Openreach is the bit that has raised eyebrows. Clearly just leaving it to the market hasn't worked - UK coverage is embarrassing - but whether that requires nationalisation is another question.

Could the market be failing due to over regulation?

rick_chasey

Monopoly of the cable provider is the problem no?

Solution is state encouraged competition not nationalisation (as ever).

rjsterry

surrey_commuter said:

rjsterry said:

surrey_commuter said:

Can I check that we are all in favour of the state providing fast broadband to every household? Seems like a classic example of using Govt to borrow at negligible rates to get a boost in productivity.
Whilst no Corbyn supporter I am starting to think that the media just ridicule everything he says. Assuming that this forum is pretty centrist then he seems on message.

Of course. The hysterical reaction from the Tories shows they were caught on the hop. TBF the proposed nationalisation of Openreach is the bit that has raised eyebrows. Clearly just leaving it to the market hasn't worked - UK coverage is embarrassing - but whether that requires nationalisation is another question.

Could the market be failing due to over regulation?

Maybe, but I'd guess more likely that it's because the infrastructure is largely under a private monopoly. See also the dismal state of affairs if you want to arrange a new or upgraded water, gas or electricity supply. Turns out that without competition, private monopolies are just as slow, inefficient and bureaucratic as public ones.

kingstongraham

Future bonus is that a Tory government can sell it off.

Jeremy.89

rick_chasey said:

Monopoly of the cable provider is the problem no?

Solution is state encouraged competition not nationalisation (as ever).

The issue is that it's somewhat of a natural monopoly. Virgin is starting to make some inroads, but IIRC even their fibre is dependent on some of openreach's kit...

I don't think the way it's been announced has done labour any favours, but the attempt of state encouraged competition isn't working as quickly as it could do at the moment.

sungod

Pross said:

...
Would we then be in a position where the state could theoretically control our internet usage?

it's been able to do that for ages, that's nothing to do with public/private ownership

uk monitoring/intercept is sophisticated
blocking/shutdown far less so, but it happens

what isn't there (today) is the equivalent of china's 'great firewall' with it's legions of watchers

Stevo_666

dg74 said:

Stevo_666 said:

darren.gladstone said:

Stevo_666 said:

darren.gladstone said:

Ten years of tories, the country in a complete state of disarray with no direction. A failing NHS, massive hidden unemployment figures (or do we class no contract workers as ‘employed’?), wage stagnation, food banks at incredibly high levels, increasing child poverty every day, homelessness.....yet it’s all Labour fault!?

People still believe anything that comes from CCHQ and will vote for Bungling Boris.

Maybe most people realise that that alternative is worse.

Out of interest I saw an article then other day saying that Germany has as many food banks as we do.

PS: you'll fit into Cake Stop just fine with views like that.

How do we know the alternative is worse? I’m no Corbyn fan but what I will do is look at what works in the manifestos for my family, my career & how long term it will effect my lifestyle. What I won’t do is believe everything that is printed about a politician or political party that if you scratch away at what is said is predominately lies & misinformation.

Do you agree with me that Germany has their own problems and has no effect on uk food banks? I’d think that Germany also has a better run economy for their workers where a lot of nationalization works for them. So why not here?

Lastly I’d not surmise that you know about someone. Mainly because A) you’re wrong, and B ) it makes you look stupid.

It’s been enlightening.

Didnt take long for you to get shirty did it? Very disappointing when people go to the trouble of greeting you and saying you'll fit in

Read my post properly - I said maybe. But it is quite likely that a hard line leftie regime will screw things up if history and experience of other countries in the past is anything to go by. The level of support of the conservatives is well ahead of the other parties and that is maybe the reason why plenty of people think the alternative is worse. Or maybe things aren't as bad as you say in your little doom and gloom post above?

You assume too much. Like I said - enlightening 👍

Do tell, what are you assuming that I am assuming?

And talking of assuming too much, did you assume that nobody had written any of the sort of 'the country is in a mess and it's the Tories' fault' type post that you did above on this near 2,000 page thread?

Stick around on here, it will be fun.

Stevo_666

kingstongraham said:

rjsterry said:

Yes, I thought the mileage was not all that, but I think he's been visiting all the Lab/Con marginals.

Anyway. Some interesting figures for those bragging about the Tory poll lead.

A month out from #GE2019:

Con 40%
Lab 28%

A month out from #GE2017:
Con 47%
Lab 29%

Doing less well than TM.

Yes, but noone's excited about Corbyn this time.

It's a sh!t sandwich and you get to choose white or brown bread.

Remember; when it's a sh!t sandwich, the more bread you have, the less sh!t you eat.

dg74

surrey_commuter said:

Can I check that we are all in favour of the state providing fast broadband to every household? Seems like a classic example of using Govt to borrow at negligible rates to get a boost in productivity.
Whilst no Corbyn supporter I am starting to think that the media just ridicule everything he says. Assuming that this forum is pretty centrist then he seems on message.

Yep. No massive fan of JC but it’s not a popularity contest & so far he is coming up trumps with some decent ideas.

Chuckled at Johnson calling it a ‘Communist’ idea. Must also mean that free NHS treatment is also a “Communist” idea too!

pinno

surrey_commuter said:

Whilst no Corbyn supporter I am starting to think that the media just ridicule everything he says. Assuming that this forum is pretty centrist then he seems on message.

Yes, the Sunday Mail last week: Corbyn talks to Czech spies !! Really?

On Amazon, this is interesting:
"The only loser is HMRC, which misses out on the corporation tax and the taxes it would have got if the money had been paid as part of a salary.

This is completely legal, and long-established government policy. The idea of giving companies tax breaks to encourage them to give shares to workers was first launched by the then-Labour government in 2000."

From: https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-why-does-amazon-pay-so-little-tax

...and before some start jumping up and down and shouting 'hypocrisy':

"But the fact that sales are booked through the UK branch of an overseas company, rather than through a UK-based subsidiary means Amazon doesn’t have to publish accounts detailing the tax it pays in respect of its total activities in the UK."

However thus practice is legal. (Wrong but legal IMHO).

So Corbyn will have to alter international agreements on taxation before he can directly tax these companies.

If we place a tax on Amazon/Google/Starbucks/Whoever.com, do other countries reciprocate this action by taxing British companies abroad?

Profits of £11b in 2017 in the UK and paltry tax payments might be legal but difficult and time consuming to change the tax Amazon pays.

Stevo_666

pinno said:

surrey_commuter said:

Whilst no Corbyn supporter I am starting to think that the media just ridicule everything he says. Assuming that this forum is pretty centrist then he seems on message.

Yes, the Sunday Mail last week: Corbyn talks to Czech spies !! Really?

On Amazon, this is interesting:
"The only loser is HMRC, which misses out on the corporation tax and the taxes it would have got if the money had been paid as part of a salary.

This is completely legal, and long-established government policy. The idea of giving companies tax breaks to encourage them to give shares to workers was first launched by the then-Labour government in 2000."

From: https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-why-does-amazon-pay-so-little-tax

...and before some start jumping up and down and shouting 'hypocrisy':

"But the fact that sales are booked through the UK branch of an overseas company, rather than through a UK-based subsidiary means Amazon doesn’t have to publish accounts detailing the tax it pays in respect of its total activities in the UK."

However thus practice is legal. (Wrong but legal IMHO).

So Corbyn will have to alter international agreements on taxation before he can directly tax these companies.

If we place a tax on Amazon/Google/Starbucks/Whoever.com, do other countries reciprocate this action by taxing British companies abroad?

Profits of £11b in 2017 in the UK and paltry tax payments might be legal but difficult and time consuming to change the tax Amazon pays.

The UK branch will be paying UK tax, it's just that they don't disclose how much. So hard to judge but the Diverted Profit Tax regs will mean that they will need to recognise an arms length return on the UK sourced profits.

And yes, the US is highly likely to retaliate against unilateral moves - it has already done so/threatened to do so in other cases.

slowbike

On the Labour proposal to provide uk wide broadband FOC - having worked in Local Gov - I can't see it working - it'll go massively over budget and the gov managers will take huge pay for something that is provided for by the commercial co's for what is a reasonable fee.

What I would accept is the nationalisation of Open Reach - and provision of basic broadband foc to every household - accepting that some away from the current infrastructure will need to be accommodated - then, should you want additional services, you can purchase them from a commercial co - like we do now.

If they provided say, 10mbs FOC - most households would want to upgrade that. Those that don't want to, or can't afford to, still get connectivity - just a bit slower - but still manageable - the base speed would need upgrading as available speeds become higher though - not sure many would want 0.5mbs broadband - although I guess there are still some on that level!

Stevo_666

slowbike said:

On the Labour proposal to provide uk wide broadband FOC - having worked in Local Gov - I can't see it working - it'll go massively over budget and the gov managers will take huge pay for something that is provided for by the commercial co's for what is a reasonable fee.

What I would accept is the nationalisation of Open Reach - and provision of basic broadband foc to every household - accepting that some away from the current infrastructure will need to be accommodated - then, should you want additional services, you can purchase them from a commercial co - like we do now.

If they provided say, 10mbs FOC - most households would want to upgrade that. Those that don't want to, or can't afford to, still get connectivity - just a bit slower - but still manageable - the base speed would need upgrading as available speeds become higher though - not sure many would want 0.5mbs broadband - although I guess there are still some on that level!

Agree on the likely cost.

However the Korean and Japanese levels of broadband coverage were not provided via a nationalised model:
https://theguardian.com/politics/2019/nov/15/labour-full-fibre-broadband-is-the-uk-lagging-behind-other-countries

pinno

The idea is good,but the costs haven't been properly worked out.
If you pop into a local shop and your card doesn't work because the internet is not working, then it affects business. (This happens in the North) Just to illustrate a point. It's not 'manageable'. I get poor internet coverage, broken signals. I work from home and the connection can delay things no end.

imposter2.0

Stevo_666 said:

Remember; when it's a sh!t sandwich, the more bread you have, the less sh!t you eat.

Technically incorrect. You eat the same amount of sh!t, but with more bread.

rick_chasey

Stevo_666 said:

slowbike said:

On the Labour proposal to provide uk wide broadband FOC - having worked in Local Gov - I can't see it working - it'll go massively over budget and the gov managers will take huge pay for something that is provided for by the commercial co's for what is a reasonable fee.

What I would accept is the nationalisation of Open Reach - and provision of basic broadband foc to every household - accepting that some away from the current infrastructure will need to be accommodated - then, should you want additional services, you can purchase them from a commercial co - like we do now.

If they provided say, 10mbs FOC - most households would want to upgrade that. Those that don't want to, or can't afford to, still get connectivity - just a bit slower - but still manageable - the base speed would need upgrading as available speeds become higher though - not sure many would want 0.5mbs broadband - although I guess there are still some on that level!

Agree on the likely cost.

However the Korean and Japanese levels of broadband coverage were not provided via a nationalised model:
https://theguardian.com/politics/2019/nov/15/labour-full-fibre-broadband-is-the-uk-lagging-behind-other-countries

Yes this is the state sponsored competition. Government actively intervenes to make sure no one company is dominant and has strict regulation on what firms must invest in on infrastructure.

Stevo_666

rick_chasey said:

Stevo_666 said:

slowbike said:

On the Labour proposal to provide uk wide broadband FOC - having worked in Local Gov - I can't see it working - it'll go massively over budget and the gov managers will take huge pay for something that is provided for by the commercial co's for what is a reasonable fee.

What I would accept is the nationalisation of Open Reach - and provision of basic broadband foc to every household - accepting that some away from the current infrastructure will need to be accommodated - then, should you want additional services, you can purchase them from a commercial co - like we do now.

If they provided say, 10mbs FOC - most households would want to upgrade that. Those that don't want to, or can't afford to, still get connectivity - just a bit slower - but still manageable - the base speed would need upgrading as available speeds become higher though - not sure many would want 0.5mbs broadband - although I guess there are still some on that level!

Agree on the likely cost.

However the Korean and Japanese levels of broadband coverage were not provided via a nationalised model:
https://theguardian.com/politics/2019/nov/15/labour-full-fibre-broadband-is-the-uk-lagging-behind-other-countries

Yes this is the state sponsored competition. Government actively intervenes to make sure no one company is dominant and has strict regulation on what firms must invest in on infrastructure.

So a bit like our utilities and the related regulators (Ofwat, Ofgem etc)?

Stevo_666

pinno said:

The idea is good,but the costs haven't been properly worked out.
If you pop into a local shop and your card doesn't work because the internet is not working, then it affects business. (This happens in the North) Just to illustrate a point. It's not 'manageable'. I get poor internet coverage, broken signals. I work from home and the connection can delay things no end.

Although where you live, you'd probably be in the 5% of the country not covered even if we do get up to Japanese/South Korean levels of coverage.

rick_chasey

Stevo_666 said:

rick_chasey said:

Stevo_666 said:

slowbike said:

On the Labour proposal to provide uk wide broadband FOC - having worked in Local Gov - I can't see it working - it'll go massively over budget and the gov managers will take huge pay for something that is provided for by the commercial co's for what is a reasonable fee.

What I would accept is the nationalisation of Open Reach - and provision of basic broadband foc to every household - accepting that some away from the current infrastructure will need to be accommodated - then, should you want additional services, you can purchase them from a commercial co - like we do now.

If they provided say, 10mbs FOC - most households would want to upgrade that. Those that don't want to, or can't afford to, still get connectivity - just a bit slower - but still manageable - the base speed would need upgrading as available speeds become higher though - not sure many would want 0.5mbs broadband - although I guess there are still some on that level!

Agree on the likely cost.

However the Korean and Japanese levels of broadband coverage were not provided via a nationalised model:
https://theguardian.com/politics/2019/nov/15/labour-full-fibre-broadband-is-the-uk-lagging-behind-other-countries

Yes this is the state sponsored competition. Government actively intervenes to make sure no one company is dominant and has strict regulation on what firms must invest in on infrastructure.

So a bit like our utilities and the related regulators (Ofwat, Ofgem etc)?

Much more interventionist than that. They allow for monopolies. South Korea does not afaik.

dg74

Stevo_666 said:

dg74 said:

Stevo_666 said:

darren.gladstone said:

Stevo_666 said:

darren.gladstone said:

Ten years of tories, the country in a complete state of disarray with no direction. A failing NHS, massive hidden unemployment figures (or do we class no contract workers as ‘employed’?), wage stagnation, food banks at incredibly high levels, increasing child poverty every day, homelessness.....yet it’s all Labour fault!?

People still believe anything that comes from CCHQ and will vote for Bungling Boris.

Maybe most people realise that that alternative is worse.

Out of interest I saw an article then other day saying that Germany has as many food banks as we do.

PS: you'll fit into Cake Stop just fine with views like that.

How do we know the alternative is worse? I’m no Corbyn fan but what I will do is look at what works in the manifestos for my family, my career & how long term it will effect my lifestyle. What I won’t do is believe everything that is printed about a politician or political party that if you scratch away at what is said is predominately lies & misinformation.

Do you agree with me that Germany has their own problems and has no effect on uk food banks? I’d think that Germany also has a better run economy for their workers where a lot of nationalization works for them. So why not here?

Lastly I’d not surmise that you know about someone. Mainly because A) you’re wrong, and B ) it makes you look stupid.

It’s been enlightening.

Didnt take long for you to get shirty did it? Very disappointing when people go to the trouble of greeting you and saying you'll fit in

Read my post properly - I said maybe. But it is quite likely that a hard line leftie regime will screw things up if history and experience of other countries in the past is anything to go by. The level of support of the conservatives is well ahead of the other parties and that is maybe the reason why plenty of people think the alternative is worse. Or maybe things aren't as bad as you say in your little doom and gloom post above?

You assume too much. Like I said - enlightening 👍

Do tell, what are you assuming that I am assuming?

And talking of assuming too much, did you assume that nobody had written any of the sort of 'the country is in a mess and it's the Tories' fault' type post that you did above on this near 2,000 page thread?

Stick around on here, it will be fun.

Quiet Stevo - you like the sound of your own voice too much!

I'll stick around just to see what other diatribes you come up with.

Stevo_666

dg74 said:

Stevo_666 said:

dg74 said:

Stevo_666 said:

darren.gladstone said:

Stevo_666 said:

darren.gladstone said:

Ten years of tories, the country in a complete state of disarray with no direction. A failing NHS, massive hidden unemployment figures (or do we class no contract workers as ‘employed’?), wage stagnation, food banks at incredibly high levels, increasing child poverty every day, homelessness.....yet it’s all Labour fault!?

People still believe anything that comes from CCHQ and will vote for Bungling Boris.

Maybe most people realise that that alternative is worse.

Out of interest I saw an article then other day saying that Germany has as many food banks as we do.

PS: you'll fit into Cake Stop just fine with views like that.

How do we know the alternative is worse? I’m no Corbyn fan but what I will do is look at what works in the manifestos for my family, my career & how long term it will effect my lifestyle. What I won’t do is believe everything that is printed about a politician or political party that if you scratch away at what is said is predominately lies & misinformation.

Do you agree with me that Germany has their own problems and has no effect on uk food banks? I’d think that Germany also has a better run economy for their workers where a lot of nationalization works for them. So why not here?

Lastly I’d not surmise that you know about someone. Mainly because A) you’re wrong, and B ) it makes you look stupid.

It’s been enlightening.

Didnt take long for you to get shirty did it? Very disappointing when people go to the trouble of greeting you and saying you'll fit in

Read my post properly - I said maybe. But it is quite likely that a hard line leftie regime will screw things up if history and experience of other countries in the past is anything to go by. The level of support of the conservatives is well ahead of the other parties and that is maybe the reason why plenty of people think the alternative is worse. Or maybe things aren't as bad as you say in your little doom and gloom post above?

You assume too much. Like I said - enlightening 👍

Do tell, what are you assuming that I am assuming?

And talking of assuming too much, did you assume that nobody had written any of the sort of 'the country is in a mess and it's the Tories' fault' type post that you did above on this near 2,000 page thread?

Stick around on here, it will be fun.

Quiet Stevo - you like the sound of your own voice too much!

I'll stick around just to see what other diatribes you come up with.

I wonder why you didn't answer the questions?

kingstongraham

Learning from the master

kingstongraham

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2019/nov/17/boris-johnson-met-alexander-lebedev-without-security-after-nato-summit

Johnson (when he was foreign secretary) ditching his security, flying to Italy to meet an ex KGB agent media mogul seems totally cool, totally normal.

pinno

Stevo_666 said:

pinno said:

The idea is good,but the costs haven't been properly worked out.
If you pop into a local shop and your card doesn't work because the internet is not working, then it affects business. (This happens in the North) Just to illustrate a point. It's not 'manageable'. I get poor internet coverage, broken signals. I work from home and the connection can delay things no end.

Although where you live, you'd probably be in the 5% of the country not covered even if we do get up to Japanese/South Korean levels of coverage.

Some can't get access at all.
Page 5:

https://www.ofcom.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0020/130736/Connected-Nations-2018-main-report.pdf

Full fibre: 6% of the UK.

There is ni doubt about it, the UK needs massive infrastructure investment. All these ideas from HS2 to Fibre broadband is indicative that we are essentially starting these projects from 0. Not improving, enhancing, adding...
Perhaps it wouldn't be so pricey if we were further down the line.

Stevo_666

kingstongraham said:

Learning from the master

I suppose we needed a replacement smartar$e for Bullsh!tter88 who seems to have finally got the hint

Stevo_666

pinno said:

Stevo_666 said:

pinno said:

The idea is good,but the costs haven't been properly worked out.
If you pop into a local shop and your card doesn't work because the internet is not working, then it affects business. (This happens in the North) Just to illustrate a point. It's not 'manageable'. I get poor internet coverage, broken signals. I work from home and the connection can delay things no end.

Although where you live, you'd probably be in the 5% of the country not covered even if we do get up to Japanese/South Korean levels of coverage.

Some can't get access at all.
Page 5:

https://www.ofcom.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0020/130736/Connected-Nations-2018-main-report.pdf

Full fibre: 6% of the UK.

There is ni doubt about it, the UK needs massive infrastructure investment. All these ideas from HS2 to Fibre broadband is indicative that we are essentially starting these projects from 0. Not improving, enhancing, adding...
Perhaps it wouldn't be so pricey if we were further down the line.

So what exactly are we meant to be investing in? The phrase 'infrastructure investment' is bandied around on here a fair but but mainly in vague terms.

As for starting from zero, well that would imply we have no railways or broadband...

Also let's remember that its normal on here to assume that the UK is crap and everywhere else has invested loads/has no real problems. Often not the case - here's an example from Germany of all countries:
https://theguardian.com/world/2018/dec/20/trains-on-time-germans-deutsche-bahn-railway