BREXIT - Is This Really Still Rumbling On? 😴

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Comments

  • pinno
    pinno Posts: 51,316
    john80 wrote:
    Good bit of selective quoting to get you off the hook though. If I was to search your posts are you confident I would not find and example of you using the term Racist in this context?

    Read the post again.
    Get me off what 'hook' exactly?
    I didn't say:

    "John is a racist leave voter"or
    "All the leave voters are racist and xenohobic".

    However, I did say:
    Pinno wrote:
    It only takes the vote of a small percentage of the above to swing it in the favour of an exit.
    seanoconn - gruagach craic!
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 58,415
    Surrey Commuter wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    TailWindHome wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    TailWindHome wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    TailWindHome wrote:
    Anyone who asserts the terms of the referendum were clear that the UK would leave the EU, and that this meant leaving the customs union and single market, must accept that Boris's deal doesn't fulfill the terms of the referendum.
    In what way?

    The UK hasn't left the EU
    GB has, but the UK hasn't.
    Go on explain.

    As far as I can see we will leave both the single market and the customs union under the terms of the current deal.

    Short version - being subject to EU regulations, under the jurisdiction of the ECJ, complying with EU customs code and subject to EU vat rules wouldn't be defined as leaving the SM or CU if it were applying to England.

    The institute for gov have good resources on what's in the deal

    https://www.instituteforgovernment.org. ... d-protocol
    Insofar as staying in the single market and customs union go, have to disagree.
    - Single market: definitley not as the 4 freedoms will not apply.
    - Customs union: again, no:
    https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-the-new-brexit-deal-explained
    The acid test being (from the link): "It will see the whole of the UK, including Northern Ireland, leave the EU’s customs union, which means Northern Ireland will be included in future British trade deals."

    There is a degree of alignment and cooperation but that in my mind is not the same thing at all.

    Then why not include all of the UK on the same terms and pass the bill?
    My point was simply that legally the whole of the UK will leave the customs union and so we will be free to do trade deals post Brexit. Do you disagree with thst?
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 27,609
    Legally, yes. In practical terms it's still stuck in/benefitting from the SM & CU.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,537
    Lots of people who know more than me seem at pains to point out how “hard” the agreement is. Virtually no access single market for GB services or manufacturing.
    _
  • morstar
    morstar Posts: 6,190
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Lots of people who know more than me seem at pains to point out how “hard” the agreement is. Virtually no access single market for GB services or manufacturing.
    That's arguably the main purpose of a Conservative Brexit though. An independent state with freedom to trade around the world and our own laws.
    That is why we're setting NI adrift as that is the only way to achieve it without a hard Irish border.
    Whether or not free market benefits trump's EU benefits is what the Tories have spent decades squabbling about.
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,866
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Surrey Commuter wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    TailWindHome wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    TailWindHome wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    TailWindHome wrote:
    Anyone who asserts the terms of the referendum were clear that the UK would leave the EU, and that this meant leaving the customs union and single market, must accept that Boris's deal doesn't fulfill the terms of the referendum.
    In what way?

    The UK hasn't left the EU
    GB has, but the UK hasn't.
    Go on explain.

    As far as I can see we will leave both the single market and the customs union under the terms of the current deal.

    Short version - being subject to EU regulations, under the jurisdiction of the ECJ, complying with EU customs code and subject to EU vat rules wouldn't be defined as leaving the SM or CU if it were applying to England.

    The institute for gov have good resources on what's in the deal

    https://www.instituteforgovernment.org. ... d-protocol
    Insofar as staying in the single market and customs union go, have to disagree.
    - Single market: definitley not as the 4 freedoms will not apply.
    - Customs union: again, no:
    https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-the-new-brexit-deal-explained
    The acid test being (from the link): "It will see the whole of the UK, including Northern Ireland, leave the EU’s customs union, which means Northern Ireland will be included in future British trade deals."

    There is a degree of alignment and cooperation but that in my mind is not the same thing at all.

    Then why not include all of the UK on the same terms and pass the bill?
    My point was simply that legally the whole of the UK will leave the customs union and so we will be free to do trade deals post Brexit. Do you disagree with thst?

    I was agreeing but questioning why not have all of the UK on the same terms
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,866
    morstar wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Lots of people who know more than me seem at pains to point out how “hard” the agreement is. Virtually no access single market for GB services or manufacturing.
    That's arguably the main purpose of a Conservative Brexit though. An independent state with freedom to trade around the world and our own laws.
    That is why we're setting NI adrift as that is the only way to achieve it without a hard Irish border.
    Whether or not free market benefits trump's EU benefits is what the Tories have spent decades squabbling about.

    The vast majority of the people on one side of that argument are certifiable morons so it is not looking good.
  • morstar
    morstar Posts: 6,190
    Surrey Commuter wrote:
    morstar wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Lots of people who know more than me seem at pains to point out how “hard” the agreement is. Virtually no access single market for GB services or manufacturing.
    That's arguably the main purpose of a Conservative Brexit though. An independent state with freedom to trade around the world and our own laws.
    That is why we're setting NI adrift as that is the only way to achieve it without a hard Irish border.
    Whether or not free market benefits trump's EU benefits is what the Tories have spent decades squabbling about.

    The vast majority of the people on one side of that argument are certifiable morons so it is not looking good.
    There is that of course.
    I was trying to present an objective take rather than risk having the point lost in a remainer opinion.
    I do wonder how the Sunderland based, Brexit supporting hard up British male benefits from such an arrangement though?
  • bobmcstuff
    bobmcstuff Posts: 11,196
    Surrey Commuter wrote:
    morstar wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Lots of people who know more than me seem at pains to point out how “hard” the agreement is. Virtually no access single market for GB services or manufacturing.
    That's arguably the main purpose of a Conservative Brexit though. An independent state with freedom to trade around the world and our own laws.
    That is why we're setting NI adrift as that is the only way to achieve it without a hard Irish border.
    Whether or not free market benefits trump's EU benefits is what the Tories have spent decades squabbling about.

    The vast majority of the people on one side of that argument are certifiable morons so it is not looking good.

    It seems painfully obvious to me that being part of a bigger block gives you more buyer power therefore better deals, so the free trade thing never really washed for me. Leaving aside that they are our closest neighbours and are our largest trade partners. As maybe 2-3% of global GDP I don't understand how people think we would get better deals than when we were part of a block making up 16 or 17%. I understand the argument but I don't think it stands up.

    This was all argued about in this thread ages ago though.
  • morstar
    morstar Posts: 6,190
    bobmcstuff wrote:
    Surrey Commuter wrote:
    morstar wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Lots of people who know more than me seem at pains to point out how “hard” the agreement is. Virtually no access single market for GB services or manufacturing.
    That's arguably the main purpose of a Conservative Brexit though. An independent state with freedom to trade around the world and our own laws.
    That is why we're setting NI adrift as that is the only way to achieve it without a hard Irish border.
    Whether or not free market benefits trump's EU benefits is what the Tories have spent decades squabbling about.

    The vast majority of the people on one side of that argument are certifiable morons so it is not looking good.

    It seems painfully obvious to me that being part of a bigger block gives you more buyer power therefore better deals, so the free trade thing never really washed for me. Leaving aside that they are our closest neighbours and are our largest trade partners. As maybe 2-3% of global GDP I don't understand how people think we would get better deals than when we were part of a block making up 16 or 17%. I understand the argument but I don't think it stands up.

    This was all argued about in this thread ages ago though.
    This is why it remained an internal tory squabble because pragmatism always won over idealism. That Farage managed to make it a broader argument is why we are here today.
  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 18,925
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Lots of people who know more than me seem at pains to point out how “hard” the agreement is. Virtually no access single market for GB services or manufacturing.


    Throughout the process people have conflated leaving without a Withdrawal Agreement and leaving without an agreed Trade Deal. (Let's go WTO)

    Now there's a Withdrawal Agreement it'll be interesting to see were the gaps are that need resolved in the Trade Agreement don't just involve tarriff rates etc.

    I suspect there are rocks with slimy things underneath.

    (My money is on Yvette Cooper to lift some rocks)
    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!
  • pinno
    pinno Posts: 51,316
    What I find intriguing is the ERG's resistance to further EU integration and dislike of 'supra organisations' would effectively mean the alternative: sucking up to the WTO instead.
    seanoconn - gruagach craic!
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,866
    morstar wrote:
    Surrey Commuter wrote:
    morstar wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Lots of people who know more than me seem at pains to point out how “hard” the agreement is. Virtually no access single market for GB services or manufacturing.
    That's arguably the main purpose of a Conservative Brexit though. An independent state with freedom to trade around the world and our own laws.
    That is why we're setting NI adrift as that is the only way to achieve it without a hard Irish border.
    Whether or not free market benefits trump's EU benefits is what the Tories have spent decades squabbling about.

    The vast majority of the people on one side of that argument are certifiable morons so it is not looking good.
    There is that of course.
    I was trying to present an objective take rather than risk having the point lost in a remainer opinion.
    I do wonder how the Sunderland based, Brexit supporting hard up British male benefits from such an arrangement though?

    To clarify that I meant the leadership on one side are morons.

    To be fair to the Mackem nobody has ever tried to hide from him that they have no interest in whether he loses his current job and that if he keeps it they will be looking to strip many of his employment rights off him.

    I doubt EU citizens flock to Sunderland so his only upside is a blue passports
  • darkhairedlord
    darkhairedlord Posts: 7,180
    Surrey Commuter wrote:
    morstar wrote:
    Surrey Commuter wrote:
    morstar wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Lots of people who know more than me seem at pains to point out how “hard” the agreement is. Virtually no access single market for GB services or manufacturing.
    That's arguably the main purpose of a Conservative Brexit though. An independent state with freedom to trade around the world and our own laws.
    That is why we're setting NI adrift as that is the only way to achieve it without a hard Irish border.
    Whether or not free market benefits trump's EU benefits is what the Tories have spent decades squabbling about.

    The vast majority of the people on one side of that argument are certifiable morons so it is not looking good.
    There is that of course.
    I was trying to present an objective take rather than risk having the point lost in a remainer opinion.
    I do wonder how the Sunderland based, Brexit supporting hard up British male benefits from such an arrangement though?

    To clarify that I meant the leadership on one side are morons.

    To be fair to the Mackem nobody has ever tried to hide from him that they have no interest in whether he loses his current job and that if he keeps it they will be looking to strip many of his employment rights off him.

    I doubt EU citizens flock to Sunderland so his only upside is a blue passports
    And it got shot of David Cameron and Geogre Osborne. I expect many were voting to put twqo fingers up to those two jokers.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,537
    https://twitter.com/WTomaney/status/1186360477091274757

    Some examples of the problems the home office are making for people as soon as their citizenship is not straightforward.

    I can vouch for my own experience that they make things unnecessarily difficult the second another nationality is involved somewhere.
    _
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 25,718
    Rick Chasey wrote:


    Some examples of the problems the home office are making for people as soon as their citizenship is not straightforward.

    I can vouch for my own experience that they make things unnecessarily difficult the second another nationality is involved somewhere.
    As this is precisely why some voted for Brexit I don’t see them having a problem with it.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,537
    PBlakeney wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:


    Some examples of the problems the home office are making for people as soon as their citizenship is not straightforward.

    I can vouch for my own experience that they make things unnecessarily difficult the second another nationality is involved somewhere.
    As this is precisely why some voted for Brexit I don’t see them having a problem with it.

    What, wrecking families because of where their parents chose to birth them?

    Great.
    _
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 20,553
    Rick Chasey wrote:


    Some examples of the problems the home office are making for people as soon as their citizenship is not straightforward.

    I can vouch for my own experience that they make things unnecessarily difficult the second another nationality is involved somewhere.

    It's much easier if you are an EU citizen.
  • shirley_basso
    shirley_basso Posts: 6,195
    Where parents chose to birth their children has always been something to think about for UK nationals, even before Brexit.
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,383
    https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/11 ... 68512?s=09

    Zebu - like a humped ox
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • bompington
    bompington Posts: 7,674
    Wouldn't zebu to a goose.
  • elbowloh
    elbowloh Posts: 7,078
    bompington wrote:
    Wouldn't zebu to a goose.
    Bravo
    Felt F1 2014
    Felt Z6 2012
    Red Arthur Caygill steel frame
    Tall....
    www.seewildlife.co.uk
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 25,718
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    PBlakeney wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:


    Some examples of the problems the home office are making for people as soon as their citizenship is not straightforward.

    I can vouch for my own experience that they make things unnecessarily difficult the second another nationality is involved somewhere.
    As this is precisely why some voted for Brexit I don’t see them having a problem with it.

    What, wrecking families because of where their parents chose to birth them?

    Great.
    Foreigners. Innit?
    No, not great in my opinion.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 27,609
    More common sense from Peter Foster. Next year is going to be fun*.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/pmdfoster/st ... 8091027456

    *worse than the last 6 months. More impossible promises followed by being smacked around the face by reality.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 20,553
    rjsterry wrote:
    More common sense from Peter Foster. Next year is going to be fun*.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/pmdfoster/st ... 8091027456

    *worse than the last 6 months. More impossible promises followed by being smacked around the face by reality.

    I think they should sort the extension and cost now.
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 25,718
    TheBigBean wrote:
    rjsterry wrote:
    More common sense from Peter Foster. Next year is going to be fun*.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/pmdfoster/st ... 8091027456

    *worse than the last 6 months. More impossible promises followed by being smacked around the face by reality.

    I think they should sort the extension and cost now.
    They can't even sort out what they want today, far less sort out the future.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 27,609
    TheBigBean wrote:
    rjsterry wrote:
    More common sense from Peter Foster. Next year is going to be fun*.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/pmdfoster/st ... 8091027456

    *worse than the last 6 months. More impossible promises followed by being smacked around the face by reality.

    I think they should sort the extension and cost now.
    That would be good but ain't going to happen as if people start asking questions about the WAB the fragile coalition within the Tory party will disintegrate.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,866
    PBlakeney wrote:
    TheBigBean wrote:
    rjsterry wrote:
    More common sense from Peter Foster. Next year is going to be fun*.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/pmdfoster/st ... 8091027456

    *worse than the last 6 months. More impossible promises followed by being smacked around the face by reality.

    I think they should sort the extension and cost now.
    They can't even sort out what they want today, far less sort out the future.

    We have agreed to ditch NI and our future relationship will be Canada minus. Whilst this feels like backward steps it is a clearer vision of the future and one that contains less unicorns.

    When you consider how little the thickos will understand/care it makes you wonder why they did not drop the pretence some time ago.
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 58,415
    Surrey Commuter wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Surrey Commuter wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    TailWindHome wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    TailWindHome wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    TailWindHome wrote:
    Anyone who asserts the terms of the referendum were clear that the UK would leave the EU, and that this meant leaving the customs union and single market, must accept that Boris's deal doesn't fulfill the terms of the referendum.
    In what way?

    The UK hasn't left the EU
    GB has, but the UK hasn't.
    Go on explain.

    As far as I can see we will leave both the single market and the customs union under the terms of the current deal.

    Short version - being subject to EU regulations, under the jurisdiction of the ECJ, complying with EU customs code and subject to EU vat rules wouldn't be defined as leaving the SM or CU if it were applying to England.

    The institute for gov have good resources on what's in the deal

    https://www.instituteforgovernment.org. ... d-protocol
    Insofar as staying in the single market and customs union go, have to disagree.
    - Single market: definitley not as the 4 freedoms will not apply.
    - Customs union: again, no:
    https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-the-new-brexit-deal-explained
    The acid test being (from the link): "It will see the whole of the UK, including Northern Ireland, leave the EU’s customs union, which means Northern Ireland will be included in future British trade deals."

    There is a degree of alignment and cooperation but that in my mind is not the same thing at all.

    Then why not include all of the UK on the same terms and pass the bill?
    My point was simply that legally the whole of the UK will leave the customs union and so we will be free to do trade deals post Brexit. Do you disagree with thst?

    I was agreeing but questioning why not have all of the UK on the same terms
    Presumably because of the specific situation in Ireland which has required a fair bit of maneuvering to come up with something that fulfills various peoples' criteria (although not the DUPs).
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • robert88
    robert88 Posts: 2,696
    Firms in Northern Ireland will have to submit declaration forms for goods heading to the rest of the UK, under the government's deal.

    Brexit Secretary Steve Barclay was forced to make the admission after initially denying it was the case.

    This followed previous assurances that Northern Ireland-GB trade would be "unfettered".

    Reported just a few minutes ago.

    Does it inspire confidence in their ability to fix a deal by 31st? Seriously?

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