BREXIT - Is This Really Still Rumbling On? 😴

Stevo_666

elbowloh said:

Stevo_666 said:

elbowloh said:

Stevo_666 said:

elbowloh said:

As mentioned above, a 1.2% increase in the tory vote has resulted in a majority of almost 80. Incredible. The Labour party made themselves pretty much unelectable.

I do wonder about those in traditional labour communities who switched to the Tories. Turkey's voting for Christmas springs to mind.

Still heartwarming seeing people clinging onto 'the electorate are stupid and we know better' line.

Not so much stupid as been lied to.

Pretty sure there's no monopoly on lies for any party. But its nearly always an excuse trotted out by the losing side.

"GENERAL ELECTION: ALMOST EVERY TORY AD DISHONEST, COMPARED WITH NONE OF LABOUR’S, RESEARCH FINDS"

88% of Tory ads contains lies

Maybe the electorate thought that was a bunch of lies? Reading the Labour manifesto it was pretty obvious to me they were far from telling the whole truth.

Not that it changes the result in any way. But carry on clutching at straws if you want.

haydenm

Longshot said:

Labour's biggest problem is that its leadership doesn't understand what it perceives to be its core voter.

Agreed.

Two good things from this might be that the Tories have time and space to come up with a final arrangement with the EU that is considered (rather than every argument threatening to topple the government), and hopefully we might see the conservative party try to appeal to people outside of their core to keep them at the next election. Boris' speech this morning wasn't bad

Stevo_666

tailwindhome said:

Labour's biggest problem now is that it's membership is still bonkers

It's the bonkers membership (and Stevo) who'll decide the next leader.

It's more expensive now. Besides, I've already done the necessary damage so I'm not giving the ****ers £25 or whatever it is

rjsterry

Stevo_666 said:

tailwindhome said:

Stevo_666 said:

TheBlueBean said:

rjsterry said:

Stevo_666 said:

rjsterry said:

rick_chasey said:

Don’t understand the “now we will have a soft Brexit” analysis.

Surely it’s the opposite.

You can only judge Johnson by his actions as his words are all over the place. When it came down to it he didn't take us out without a deal. He's also not beholden to the headbangers anymore. But who knows? He's told so many lies nobody knows where his true beliefs lie.

Fair enough. Many said he could never renegotiate the WA and he did. Many said he would never get a big majority and he did. Wonder what will be next on the list?

TBF, his renegotiation was pretty minimal. He just went back to the previous version that May almost agreed before she suddenly remembered the DUP.

Oh, wot SC said.

Some fairly material differences.

+1

He still did what many on here and elsewhere couldn't be done.

He did what many said couldn't be done, by doing what he said he wouldn't do.

He kept the lefties out of power, which is important.

Not sure the DUP count as lefties.

chris_bass

i am very much against Brexit and very very against the Tories but i'm not going to moan about the result or say anything is unfair, we have spent the best part of 4 years squabbling about this stuff and that is definitely more than enough of that!

At least some of the uncertainty has gone away and things will hopefully move forward.

I maintain that this should never have been put to a referendum and i hope that if nothing else we learn from this whole debacle and future referendums will be conducted in a better way.

rick_chasey

I don’t think anyone is complaining.

People can be disappointed with a result. I have a fundamental disagreement with the Tory party over how they ought to run the country so I am naturally disappointed that the nation disagrees.

That’s not a nice feeling, especially when the leader says things that come across as vindictive against my family (“stopping EU migrants treating U.K. as home”).

TheBigBean

chris_bass said:

I maintain that this should never have been put to a referendum and i hope that if nothing else we learn from this whole debacle and future referendums will be conducted in a better way.

So BoJo should allow a Scottish referendum, but introduce some new refined features e.g. min turnout, min vote share? I don't think that will go down well.

rjsterry

TheBlueBean said:

chris_bass said:

I maintain that this should never have been put to a referendum and i hope that if nothing else we learn from this whole debacle and future referendums will be conducted in a better way.

So BoJo should allow a Scottish referendum, but introduce some new refined features e.g. min turnout, min vote share? I don't think that will go down well.

Fairly standard requirements for constitutional changes in other countries. Can't see what the real complaint would be. Arguing for a lower threshold is more or less admitting that you don't have the numbers to do more than scrape over the line.

rjsterry

Awkward indeed.

https://mobile.twitter.com/PippaCrerar/status/1205516211930443777

Meanwhile, the levels of denial on social media from various assorted Labour supporters are breathtaking.

briantrumpet

rjsterry said:

Awkward indeed.

https://mobile.twitter.com/PippaCrerar/status/1205516211930443777

Meanwhile, the levels of denial on social media from various assorted Labour supporters are breathtaking.

If they carry on like that, Stevo won't need to do anything to keep Labour away from the reins of power: its own believer-supporters will.

morstar

Ruth Davison (Davidson?) was a very insightful pundit last night/this morning.
She reckons Labour have another cycle of unelectable leadership before they address the problem.
She likened Corbyn to the IDS years and suggested the next leader will be the Michael Howard equivalent i.e another purist.

rjsterry

morstar said:

Ruth Davison (Davidson?) was a very insightful pundit last night/this morning.
She reckons Labour have another cycle of unelectable leadership before they address the problem.
She likened Corbyn to the IDS years and suggested the next leader will be the Michael Howard equivalent i.e another purist.

Certainly a risk of that with the likes of Rebecca Long Bailey

chris_bass

morstar said:

Ruth Davison (Davidson?) was a very insightful pundit last night/this morning.
She reckons Labour have another cycle of unelectable leadership before they address the problem.
She likened Corbyn to the IDS years and suggested the next leader will be the Michael Howard equivalent i.e another purist.

sounds more like Man United's managers since Ferguson left!

rjsterry

Since this is the Brexit thread, interesting to note that Macron has been quick to remind Johnson that wide ranging access to the SM requires wide ranging alignment. Obviously.

rjsterry

Also (forgot to post this earlier) did anyone else hear Farage trying to claim credit for the Tory win because if he hadn't stood down those 300-odd idiots he persuaded to be candidates...

Jeremy.89

rjsterry said:

Also (forgot to post this earlier) did anyone else hear Farage trying to claim credit for the Tory win because if he hadn't stood down those 300-odd idiots he persuaded to be candidates...

It would be interesting to see what a remain/2nd vote electoral pact could have achieved...

Or whether a more serious campaign by the Brexit party would have split the tory vote at all...

It's interesting that Corbyns leadership is strongly given as a reason for not voting Labour , because he is socialist, but his economic policies are not given as a reason for not voting Labour.

Stevo_666

rjsterry said:

Since this is the Brexit thread, interesting to note that Macron has been quick to remind Johnson that wide ranging access to the SM requires wide ranging alignment. Obviously.

It is also interesting to note that last time Macron publically talked tough on Brexit, he was conveniently deflecting from his French domestic problems at the time. Now France just happens to be in the first phase of a potentially long and damaging dispute over pension rights...

Stevo_666

Jeremy.89 said:

rjsterry said:

Also (forgot to post this earlier) did anyone else hear Farage trying to claim credit for the Tory win because if he hadn't stood down those 300-odd idiots he persuaded to be candidates...

It would be interesting to see what a remain/2nd vote electoral pact could have achieved...

Or whether a more serious campaign by the Brexit party would have split the tory vote at all...

It's interesting that Corbyns leadership is strongly given as a reason for not voting Labour , because he is socialist, but his economic policies are not given as a reason for not voting Labour.

It was a good reason for me not to.

rjsterry

Best post this again from Opinium, carried out today.

rjsterry

Stevo_666 said:

rjsterry said:

Since this is the Brexit thread, interesting to note that Macron has been quick to remind Johnson that wide ranging access to the SM requires wide ranging alignment. Obviously.

It is also interesting to note that last time Macron publically talked tough on Brexit, he was conveniently deflecting from his French domestic problems at the time. Now France just happens to be in the first phase of a potentially long and damaging dispute over pension rights...

I don't doubt it. I think it's an internationally recognised political tactic. The point still stands, though, as it has done since before Brexit.

kingstongraham

Jeremy.89 said:

It would be interesting to see what a remain/2nd vote electoral pact could have achieved...

Will take a look when there's downloadable figures, but my hunch is nothing. There are so many seats that went Conservative by a lot, not just marginal.

Overall though, comparing only votes for Con/Brx to Lab/LD/SNP/Green, it's 48% vs 52%.

awavey

I couldnt believe it at work all I said was the well the stockmarket have reacted positively to the result,33bn apparently added to it by the end of the day the pound increasing in value, and I suddenly got jumped on by a colleague for not understanding well there are increasing foodbanks and clearly I hated poor people for being so shallow that I was only interested in capitalism outcomes...yeah who I voted for is between me and my maker, but when the left get off their high horse blaming everyone else for this kind of stuff,maybe theyll command a majority view in this country.

rick_chasey

awavey said:

I couldnt believe it at work all I said was the well the stockmarket have reacted positively to the result,33bn apparently added to it by the end of the day the pound increasing in value, and I suddenly got jumped on by a colleague for not understanding well there are increasing foodbanks and clearly I hated poor people for being so shallow that I was only interested in capitalism outcomes...yeah who I voted for is between me and my maker, but when the left get off their high horse blaming everyone else for this kind of stuff,maybe theyll command a majority view in this country.

Wouldn’t you agree each party tends to look after certain socio economic strata and the Tories really don’t look after those at the bottom?

I mean, the increase in homelessness, for example, is really easily attributed to austerity. There’s a direct causal correlation there.

You may think it’s not really a concern of yours, and that’s entirely fair - as you say, you are absolutely entitled to vote however you want for whatever reason you want - but, and I mean this as an honest question - does the whole worse off doing worse not bother you?

I get that there is no reason necessarily why labour would improve that - Venezuelan policies make everyone hungry, not just the homeless - but it’s not like the Tories have a great track record in lifting people out of poverty. Quite the reverse.

rick_chasey

Re Brexit, the whole NI / GB border becomes a lot easier if there’s some locked in regulatory “level playing field” with the EU.

Anyone sensible would.....never mind.

surrey_commuter

Jeremy.89 said:

rjsterry said:

Also (forgot to post this earlier) did anyone else hear Farage trying to claim credit for the Tory win because if he hadn't stood down those 300-odd idiots he persuaded to be candidates...

It would be interesting to see what a remain/2nd vote electoral pact could have achieved...

Or whether a more serious campaign by the Brexit party would have split the tory vote at all...

It's interesting that Corbyns leadership is strongly given as a reason for not voting Labour , because he is socialist, but his economic policies are not given as a reason for not voting Labour.

I doubt it would make much difference as Remainers tend not to be single issue headbangers, this is why a GE is not a proxy for a referendum.

Your second point just means that most people don’t understand that his economic policies are because he is a socialist.

I remember when Kinnock lost and about 5% of people said they did not vote for him because he was Welsh and a similar number because he was ginger.

TheBigBean

rick_chasey said:

Re Brexit, the whole NI / GB border becomes a lot easier if there’s some locked in regulatory “level playing field” with the EU.

Anyone sensible would.....never mind.

Not according to the EU. The previous WA contained level playing field provisions and didn't solve the border problem.

TheBigBean

Hornsey and Wood Green voted 75% remain in the Brexit vote. It was a Lib Dem seat for 10 years to 2015. How did Labour manage to retain this with a 20,000 majority? This is Labour's worst performance in years which must mean this is astonishingly bad by the Lib Dems.

pblakeney

TheBlueBean said:

rick_chasey said:

Re Brexit, the whole NI / GB border becomes a lot easier if there’s some locked in regulatory “level playing field” with the EU.

Anyone sensible would.....never mind.

Not according to the EU. The previous WA contained level playing field provisions and didn't solve the border problem.

The border problem has been solved?
You think that because BJ says so? 🤣🤣🤣

Stevo_666

awavey said:

I couldnt believe it at work all I said was the well the stockmarket have reacted positively to the result,33bn apparently added to it by the end of the day the pound increasing in value, and I suddenly got jumped on by a colleague for not understanding well there are increasing foodbanks and clearly I hated poor people for being so shallow that I was only interested in capitalism outcomes...yeah who I voted for is between me and my maker, but when the left get off their high horse blaming everyone else for this kind of stuff,maybe theyll command a majority view in this country.

You forget that only people whose politics are left of centre are capable of being caring, compassionate, generous etc.

Pross

TheBlueBean said:

Hornsey and Wood Green voted 75% remain in the Brexit vote. It was a Lib Dem seat for 10 years to 2015. How did Labour manage to retain this with a 20,000 majority? This is Labour's worst performance in years which must mean this is astonishingly bad by the Lib Dems.

Trying to work out why people voted as they did in individual constituencies this time around is pointless. It would be interesting comparing the colour map with one from the 80s!