Custom Wheelbuild wrong

ck101
ck101 Posts: 222
edited March 2015 in Road buying advice
After reading this forum for ideas I ordered some 32h Archetype rims which I gave to a local wheel builder to be built up with stainless DT or ACI DB spokes and Ultegra hubs. Picked them up today and the shop incorrectly used Plain Gauge black spokes. They're coming in at 2Kg which I'm a bit disappointed about as my last wheels were 36h Open Pro w 105 which were also coming in at 2Kg. I was hoping for them to come in at 1,8kg or so. Its not much weight I know but thats not the reason for the change,I'm going 11 speed.

Not much improvement to show for my cash other than a wider rim. The black spoke with the Ultra hub and the Archetype Anodised rim do however look top class.

Its a traditional shop who have been building wheels for years so I'm certain they'll say Plain Gauge is the way to go. The owner knows his bikes and probably reckoned the black spoke looked the part. I also don't want to be a pain as the service is good and reasonable.

For peace of mind someone convince me theres some benefit to the Plain Gauge spokes.

Comments

  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    So out of a choice of talking straight to the builder or complaining on the internet - you chose the latter?
  • JayKosta
    JayKosta Posts: 635
    There probably isn't any benefit of plain gauge, other than they should have been less expensive. If you agreed to a specific price when you ordered the wheels with butted spokes, then I'd start by talking with the builder about a price reduction because less expensive spokes were used.

    Yes, the builder might try to get you to accept the wheels with plain spokes. But if so, it is only fair that he reduces the price by the difference in spoke cost.

    Other possible 'good' outcome is that the builder offers to rebuild the wheels with the proper spokes for the price that you've already paid.

    The plain spokes will work fine ... they're are just a little heavier than you wanted.

    Jay Kosta
    Endwell NY USA
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,301
    Plain gauge is never the way to go. I did use occasionally plain gauge when the new crop of triple butted spokes were not available on the market, but now I prefer to use DT Swiss Alpine 3 for very heavy (> 100 Kg) guys or under-engineered spoke counts. It's a better spoke in every possible way and it's even lighter
    left the forum March 2023
  • bendertherobot
    bendertherobot Posts: 11,684
    Imposter wrote:
    So out of a choice of talking straight to the builder or complaining on the internet - you chose the latter?

    Yes. He asked for something specific, got something else. In order to inform his discussions as to whether to reject what he didn't order, he needs to know the pros and cons/
    My blog: http://www.roubaixcycling.cc (kit reviews and other musings)
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    Facebook? No. Just say no.
  • Ber Nard
    Ber Nard Posts: 827
    JayKosta wrote:
    There probably isn't any benefit of plain gauge, other than they should have been less expensive. If you agreed to a specific price when you ordered the wheels with butted spokes, then I'd start by talking with the builder about a price reduction because less expensive spokes were used.

    Agree with this. I had a similar thing happen where I took a pair of wheels in for a rim swap. I was told they build with DB spokes as standard which was what I wanted. When I got them home I realised they were plain gauge.

    I wasn't overly bothered as they were for my winter bike and came in cheaper than I was quoted. But still I occasionally lament that they are not exactly what I want and think about having theme rebuilt. If they were my best wheels, I definitely would.
  • ck101
    ck101 Posts: 222
    Imposter wrote:
    So out of a choice of talking straight to the builder or complaining on the internet - you chose the latter?

    Yes. He asked for something specific, got something else. In order to inform his discussions as to whether to reject what he didn't order, he needs to know the pros and cons/

    Bernard,
    That about sums it up. Felt like an upgrade and thought about it for a while before ordering, I also like things to be 100%.

    To respond to Imposters comment, odd as it may seem but I didn't complain on the day because I was caught in the moment of realising it's a significant overhead to rebuild not wanting to seem picky. Thats me a wimp.

    If my post had of thrown up comments from the likes of Ugo that said they use plain gauge all the time, better for racers etc. I'd have been ok with this unsolicited change.

    Having said all this I had a quick look at the Cycleclinic's site and the 32h Archetype, Ultegra build is coming in at 1920g, 80g off mine. It seems I have made a mistake anyway on the weight they would have been using a DB spoke.

    A few early swigs on the bidon should level things out.
  • bendertherobot
    bendertherobot Posts: 11,684
    I know nothing of these things but know that the PX wheels I had were a bit dead. They were plain gauge, I think, Ugo will tell you.

    The Pacenti ones I have now are Sapim. They are alive. Ditto my Archetypes. So there may be more than just weight.

    Did they charge you less?
    My blog: http://www.roubaixcycling.cc (kit reviews and other musings)
    https://twitter.com/roubaixcc
    Facebook? No. Just say no.
  • Flâneur
    Flâneur Posts: 3,081
    You aren't happy take it back and have a discussion make it clear it isn't the time/quality just it isn't what you wanted/ordered. Have a discussion, rather than as some people may do, going in looking for the rainbows end
    Stevo 666 wrote: Come on you Scousers! 20/12/2014
    Crudder
    CX
    Toy
  • DKay
    DKay Posts: 1,652
    My personal take, is that the the shop messed-up and you haven't been supplied with what was agreed and paid for. The shop needs to make it right.
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,301
    The old school is that plain gauge are stiffer and more durable, but that has been proved wrong. They are inferior in any possible way and now that you can get triple butted spoke with a massive J bend section, they really have no reason to exist except for budget wheels.

    These days even tandem wheels are built with DT Swiss Alpine 3 or the Sapim equivalent.

    The weight is not the main issue, it's the lack of elasticity which makes the ride duller
    left the forum March 2023
  • dj58
    dj58 Posts: 2,221
    It will probably always niggle you that you didn't get the wheels built with the spokes you wanted. Ask them what they propose to do about it, after all it is their mistake.
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    Imposter wrote:
    So out of a choice of talking straight to the builder or complaining on the internet - you chose the latter?

    Yes. He asked for something specific, got something else. In order to inform his discussions as to whether to reject what he didn't order, he needs to know the pros and cons/

    I would have just asked the builder. There is no discussion to 'inform'. He didn't get what he asked for, so it should be rejected on principle.
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,301
    Imposter wrote:
    I would have just asked the builder. There is no discussion to 'inform'. He didn't get what he asked for, so it should be rejected on principle.

    True, but sometimes even if you don't get what you want, you might get what you need or you might get something better, in which case it is pointless to start an argument about it. Supported by a bit of knowledge, he can go back to the builder with some grounds on why he is not happy.

    Have you ever bought something, got sent something else and found out after a bit of research that it was actually better and not bothered returning it? It's called luck... :wink:
    left the forum March 2023
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    Imposter wrote:
    I would have just asked the builder. There is no discussion to 'inform'. He didn't get what he asked for, so it should be rejected on principle.

    True, but sometimes even if you don't get what you want, you might get what you need or you might get something better, in which case it is pointless to start an argument about it. Supported by a bit of knowledge, he can go back to the builder with some grounds on why he is not happy.

    Have you ever bought something, got sent something else and found out after a bit of research that it was actually better and not bothered returning it? It's called luck... :wink:

    So the Rolling Stones were right all along? Makes no odds. The OP ordered one spec - the builder built to another. Not only that, but the builder appears to have built to a lower spec, not even an equivalent one.
  • holiver
    holiver Posts: 729
    I would be cracking skulls at the builder. As Imposter says its a lower spec. It's both an emotional and logical purchase and I would want the build I had decided on, not what the builder did.
  • bendertherobot
    bendertherobot Posts: 11,684
    Imposter wrote:

    So the Rolling Stones were right all along? Makes no odds. The OP ordered one spec - the builder built to another. Not only that, but the builder appears to have built to a lower spec, not even an equivalent one.

    Which he knows now. He's sure of it. He's got informed information here.
    My blog: http://www.roubaixcycling.cc (kit reviews and other musings)
    https://twitter.com/roubaixcc
    Facebook? No. Just say no.
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,301
    The rolling stones are always right...
    left the forum March 2023
  • Sir Velo
    Sir Velo Posts: 143
    I would have thought that a decent wheel builder would have discussed the 'build' with the customer before starting the work. So they might have said "I can build what you are suggesting, but a better build might be xxx and for the following reasons". Then the OP (or whoever) can decide whether to stick with their choice or opt for the build being suggested by the wheel builder. The whole thing feels wrong, the last time a got a wheel built (well rebuilt) the guy discussed the options first. I am sure Ugo and Cycleclinic would have the conversation before rather than after.

    SV
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    Imposter wrote:

    So the Rolling Stones were right all along? Makes no odds. The OP ordered one spec - the builder built to another. Not only that, but the builder appears to have built to a lower spec, not even an equivalent one.

    Which he knows now. He's sure of it. He's got informed information here.

    Well, not really. He already knew that he hadn't got what he ordered. That's the only point I'm making. It didn't need the combined expertise of BR to help him understand that.
  • bendertherobot
    bendertherobot Posts: 11,684
    Imposter wrote:
    Imposter wrote:

    So the Rolling Stones were right all along? Makes no odds. The OP ordered one spec - the builder built to another. Not only that, but the builder appears to have built to a lower spec, not even an equivalent one.

    Which he knows now. He's sure of it. He's got informed information here.

    Well, not really. He already knew that he hadn't got what he ordered. That's the only point I'm making. It didn't need the combined expertise of BR to help him understand that.

    No, he got something different. Everyone knows that. What he asked for was information as to whether what he got was as good as what he ordered. He now knows, or has at least confirmed that it was not. That's the point everyone else is making ;)
    My blog: http://www.roubaixcycling.cc (kit reviews and other musings)
    https://twitter.com/roubaixcc
    Facebook? No. Just say no.
  • I would question whether the wheel builder is actually competent, who builds a wheel these days with plain gauge spokes?
  • ck101
    ck101 Posts: 222
    Ok I knew the wheels I received were not what I ordered. Everything I ever read pointed to DB spokes as the default option, thats why I ordered them. I asked the question here for confirmation and to get some expert opinion which I have. Thanks all.
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,301
    Ck101 wrote:
    Ok I knew the wheels I received were not what I ordered. Everything I ever read pointed to DB spokes as the default option, thats why I ordered them. I asked the question here for confirmation and to get some expert opinion which I have. Thanks all.

    That said, you never mentioned your weight... if you are 110 Kg I don't think there is anything wrong in the builder choice, at least forthe rear wheel, given the UK distribution for spokes like DT Alpine 3 is inexistent... I buy them from retail in Germany for instance... but I don't expect a shop to buy stuff from retail, let alone abroad
    left the forum March 2023
  • LegendLust
    LegendLust Posts: 1,022
    Sir Velo wrote:
    I would have thought that a decent wheel builder would have discussed the 'build' with the customer before starting the work. So they might have said "I can build what you are suggesting, but a better build might be xxx and for the following reasons". Then the OP (or whoever) can decide whether to stick with their choice or opt for the build being suggested by the wheel builder. The whole thing feels wrong, the last time a got a wheel built (well rebuilt) the guy discussed the options first. I am sure Ugo and Cycleclinic would have the conversation before rather than after.

    SV

    This ^