Claris 8 speed to Sora 9 speed - noticeable??

tangled_metal

Looking at my options at a lowish budget I seem to have two choices of gearing, Claris or Sora.

Now back when I got my first road bike at 17 years old, my priorities was Reynolds tubing, best gearing and whatever I could get with the rest of my budget. Now I am wondering if a better gearing is really important. How noticeable is the improvement of Sora 9 speed over the Claris 8 speed?? Is it worth the difference between carbon forks and alloy forks on comfort for example.

Now that Claris and Sora have the same shifting mechanism as say Tiagra had, i.e. not with the thumb level, does it really make a difference. Both gearing have the same top and bottom end gearing options so the only real difference I can see is the 9 speed has closer changes in the rear meaning a smaller step between gear changes. I've debated this with friends before now. Do you notice between 1 extra cog on your cassette? Some say they would prefer more gears others say they are not bothered so long as they have the same top and bottom gear options and the same chainrings. This argument also spread on to whether they preferred a triple or a double up front. Say a 48/26T or a 48/36/26T with a 32-11T for both options. Less wear with the 2 chainrings and less crossover issue perhaps but is there a better spread of gearing choice with the triple? I am happy with the 2 rings but others preferred as many gears as possible with a triple. What do you guys think?

timothyw

Well, I have 3 bikes - my first was a 9 speed triple, my second a 10 speed compact and my most recent is a vintage 5 speed double.

Frankly, I enjoy riding them all, so the best advice I can give you is get a test ride and see which you prefer to ride, as that is what is really important.

If you can't get a test ride, then perhaps look second hand, as you can probably get something a lot better within your budget.

Personally, I would be put off 8 speed because it is currently approaching obsolescence and you'll probably already find that there's limited range of replacement parts (and they're harder to find in small bike shops - so if something breaks out on a ride they might not be able to help you), whereas with eg 10-speed there's a large range of replacement parts at a variety of price points so availability is not a problem - 8 speed pretty much all you can get now is bottom of the range.

tangled_metal

Isn't Claris a new product range from last year or 2013? If that is going to become obsolete I doubt it will be for some years or why would Shimano bother? From what I have read Shimano went in with the Claris having all the parts in the groupset not just a few of the components that make up groupsets. Some past groupsets at the lower end were missing some of the components, say a hub or brake levers or something, IIRC the old Sora and the old 2300 didn't have the full set, could be wrong. In my mind that means they intend to keep it for at least a few years.

With your argument then the 9 speed Sora has the same argument. I can't look into the future but I seem to remember you could get 7 speed shimano for some time after it was all about 8 or 9 speed. Now it is 10 or 11 speed I reckon the same will apply with the 8 and 9 speed newer groupsets. Of course you could be right.

One thing though, I don't trust the secondhand market enough to go there. Not just my not knowing what is decent, the price it is worth (deal or bad deal) but also whether it is stolen. My bike was stolen so it dented my trust in people. There is a secondhand cycle shop near me, I now think they sell stolen. It is a negative mindset created by a gang of toerags working the area with a van and a sheer brazen approach to their activity. They'll walk into highly active yards, schools and other less private areas and walk off with bikes as calm as you like. If seen they just act cool and carry on,

It is just this mindset of mine that means I will accept less for the money by buying from a shop. It is also why Claris or Sora is my only option and the choice I go for affects other components like carbon fork or alloy fork (less road buzz for carbon or a harsher ride with alloy forks because I have the better gears). I have read a positive review from a forum like BR or a cycling mag (cycling weekly IIRC) on the Claris being pretty good. They made a comment about how it had similarities with the older 105 in some features just not as quick changing. Another forum post someone said you only notice changes between alternate groupsets, for example, Claris to Tiagra or Sora to 105 is noticeable but not Claris to Sora or Sora to Tiagra. I wonder if that is true.

w00dster

I have 9 Speed Sora and 11 Speed Ultegra so can't give a direct comparison but I'll try and answer one of your questions.
Will you notice having the additional gear? Yeah you probably will to a small extent. But will it be significantly noticable? I'd say nope.
My 11 speed ultegra is nice, I have an 11-23 cassette on it and it smoothly moves up and down the cassette. Where as the Sora cassette is an 11-30 (both of them are 50/34 compact). The 11-30 Sora does "clunk" between gears, but that doesn't mean to say the ride is much less enjoyed. The clunking between gears maybe less on a smaller cassette, but my bike is heavy and I need all the help up the hills as I can get!! A 12-25 may give you a closer range and may be all you need. With regards to just having the same top or bottom gear, that depends on the riding you do in my opinion. I ride in fast paced group rides, on the flat I want the appropriate gear for me and my cadence - I don't want to compromise (hope that makes sense). On the Sora bike I don't mind so much as that is my a winter bike / commuter so I don't mind not having the gears.
Is there much of a cost difference between Sora and 105? A did a very quick look and Sora seems to be about £220 and 105 is £300. 10 Speed Tiagra is showing as about £250 - is this an option? I think for longevity I would be looking at 10 Speed myself.

tangled_metal

Price does matter for me. I am buying the complete bike as specified by the brand I end up choosing. Swapping out groupsets costing £30 more would mean shelling out the full £250, Doubt the shop will charge me the difference of £30. Would be nice if it happened though.

Reality when buying complete bikes at your top budget (to get the most for your money) means better groupset reduces the quality of the frame fork option. Is it better to get the carbon fork with Claris or Alloy fork with Sora? If the groupset fails then what options? Can I fit a 9 speed cassette on a bike originally with 8 speed? Or perhaps even a 10 speed? Especially critical if the 8 speed is not available when that happens.

passout

I'd say no, you won't notice. 8 & 9 speed chains & cassettes are really cheap - so its a good long term money saver.

Omar Little

I have Claris on my winter bike and its pretty good, its a bit heavier and not quite as slick as the Ultegra i have on another bike but its functional and works and the hoods are comfortable. Im sure the same can be said for Sora too.

beski

I have Claris on my bike & a carbon fork. The Claris gearing works well, I've not felt wanting more gears for the riding i do. The carbon fork is something that I feel is of great benefit for added comfort.

mroli

TimothyW wrote:

Personally, I would be put off 8 speed because it is currently approaching obsolescence and you'll probably already find that there's limited range of replacement parts (and they're harder to find in small bike shops - so if something breaks out on a ride they might not be able to help you), whereas with eg 10-speed there's a large range of replacement parts at a variety of price points so availability is not a problem.

This is not true. If anything 10 speed will go towards obsolescence as everyone on 10 move to 11 speed to have the newest and latest. Everyone on 8 speed will stay on 8 speed as it is an entry point and parts are cheap.
I put Claris on my winter bike for exactly this reason.

timothyw

mroli wrote:

TimothyW wrote:

Personally, I would be put off 8 speed because it is currently approaching obsolescence and you'll probably already find that there's limited range of replacement parts (and they're harder to find in small bike shops - so if something breaks out on a ride they might not be able to help you), whereas with eg 10-speed there's a large range of replacement parts at a variety of price points so availability is not a problem.

This is not true. If anything 10 speed will go towards obsolescence as everyone on 10 move to 11 speed to have the newest and latest. Everyone on 8 speed will stay on 8 speed as it is an entry point and parts are cheap.
I put Claris on my winter bike for exactly this reason.

I didn't present it as fact, this would be why I said 'Personally' and 'you'll probably' in order to make it clear that I was stating an opinion. Neither of us have a crystal ball (or work for Shimano/SRAM/Campag). I think you'll find that a lot of people on 8 speed will move to 10 speed or 11 speed eventually because it is better by almost every metric - they are generally only riding 8 speed because of limited funds or other priorities for those funds.

As I mentioned earlier in that same post, I also have a 5 speed bike, and I can tell you it's pretty tricky to find 5 speed cassettes and parts nowadays.

Anyway, all this is irrelevant because my advice to the OP remains the same:

TimothyW wrote:

get a test ride and see which you prefer to ride, as that is what is really important.

tangled_metal

As the OP my point of view is that I am not a great shifter of gears. I am not racing or doing truly long rides (at the moment) so I tend to change my gears less than others. I have, probably a very bad habit, of uisng a higher gear than I should when the gradient changes to become steeper. As a result on my old hybrid (stolen spesh crosstrail sport disc 2013 in black and XXL if you get offered one cheap it could be mine) I used to just use the highest 9 gears without changing down from the highest chainring gear. I would only change if it gor really steep or I was on a longer ride and i had got a bit tired (due to towing a child trailer).

As a result fewer gears are not an issue. Most changes would be on the chainring as I had hit a big hill but on the flatter sections of rides I tend to only use 4 cogs on the cassette and the larger chainring. Also the Claris I am looking at is a triple so at 24 gears it is more than a 9 or 10 speed compact (Sora or Tiagra).

So from this point of view with gears I started thinking along the lines of the best frame and forks. Which meant the bike with the carbon forks and Claris gears. Or a steel tourer/cross adventure gravel bike with decent frame and forks with lower gearset. The point of view is gears wear out and get replaced or can be upgraded later but it is less likely you'll replace the stock forks or replace the frame keeping the better groupset.

There is another thread where the OP asked what is the most money spent on upgrades of a cheap bike. Someone basically asked why? Better to get the best bike if you are upgrading. Upgrading a cheap bike with flashy kit is pointless. Whilst Sora is not flashy compared to CLaris (I think so) but you get my meaning. One bike has Al frame and forks with Tiagra I think. Really?!! Why? Get a good fork (even on an Al 6061 or 6066 frame) is possibly better than sora or tiagra over a claris. Bear in mind I went 20 odd years riding a 7 speed road bike so for me 8 speed is not bad (before that I thought I was flashy with a 5 speed sports bike as a kid with a triple IIRC).

If I'm wrong in the best frame and fork idea please correct me.

To summarise it - Claris and carbon fork or Sora (possibly Tiagra) and Al fork. Which is best if you are happy with the fit of the bikes? I will be going back from front suspension to a rigid road type of a bike so I'm guessing I'll notice the road buzz hence my carbon fork options seem ok.

freestyle_gus

Tangled Metal wrote:

As the OP my point of view is that I am not a great shifter of gears. I am not racing or doing truly long rides (at the moment) so I tend to change my gears less than others. I have, probably a very bad habit, of uisng a higher gear than I should when the gradient changes to become steeper. As a result on my old hybrid (stolen spesh crosstrail sport disc 2013 in black and XXL if you get offered one cheap it could be mine) I used to just use the highest 9 gears without changing down from the highest chainring gear. I would only change if it gor really steep or I was on a longer ride and i had got a bit tired (due to towing a child trailer).

As a result fewer gears are not an issue. Most changes would be on the chainring as I had hit a big hill but on the flatter sections of rides I tend to only use 4 cogs on the cassette and the larger chainring. Also the Claris I am looking at is a triple so at 24 gears it is more than a 9 or 10 speed compact (Sora or Tiagra).

So from this point of view with gears I started thinking along the lines of the best frame and forks. Which meant the bike with the carbon forks and Claris gears. Or a steel tourer/cross adventure gravel bike with decent frame and forks with lower gearset. The point of view is gears wear out and get replaced or can be upgraded later but it is less likely you'll replace the stock forks or replace the frame keeping the better groupset.

There is another thread where the OP asked what is the most money spent on upgrades of a cheap bike. Someone basically asked why? Better to get the best bike if you are upgrading. Upgrading a cheap bike with flashy kit is pointless. Whilst Sora is not flashy compared to CLaris (I think so) but you get my meaning. One bike has Al frame and forks with Tiagra I think. Really?!! Why? Get a good fork (even on an Al 6061 or 6066 frame) is possibly better than sora or tiagra over a claris. Bear in mind I went 20 odd years riding a 7 speed road bike so for me 8 speed is not bad (before that I thought I was flashy with a 5 speed sports bike as a kid with a triple IIRC).

If I'm wrong in the best frame and fork idea please correct me.

To summarise it - Claris and carbon fork or Sora (possibly Tiagra) and Al fork. Which is best if you are happy with the fit of the bikes? I will be going back from front suspension to a rigid road type of a bike so I'm guessing I'll notice the road buzz hence my carbon fork options seem ok.

I'd go along with the perceived wisdom of it's all about the frame/fork and less about the gear. I bought a Synapse in the summer, it's one of the best Alu frames around, smooth and comfy. I initially bought a Norco with Alu fork and the difference compared to the Carbon fork of the Synapse is night and day!

I run the Claris, and like you probably don't use the full range of gears (16) as I should, but I don't feel the need most of the time. The gears change when I need, smoothly and easily. Yes Tiagra etc.. might be a bit snappier and definitely lighter but it's not even in my mind as a possible upgrade at the moment.

All I've done is upgrade the cheap wheelset to something stiffer and lighter (with a wider rim). so now it's a 9.5kg bike (plenty light enough for me) and even more comfortable (25mm tyres on wide rims are LOVELY).

So yes, for me, good frame + good (carbon?) fork = good bike. The rest is (mainly) window dressing.

iron-clover

I've been running 8 speed 2300/ claris on my road bike for the last 4 years, and last year I purchased an old TT bike with old 9 speed Ultegra.
It did make a slight difference in the TTs with the same range cassette- I found it a bit easier to find the right cog on the back to match my speed, but it also helps it has a standard chainset rather than a compact. I had been using the road bike with clip ons in TTs for just over a year (with some success) before I got the TT machine.

However, for general cycling you probably won't notice all that much difference (I have a quirky sti setup on the TT bike which helps with riding to races), but the advantage of the 9 speed cassettes is that they can come with large numbers of teeth, possibly due to MTB goupsets, but they are perfectly interchangable. With the 8 speed cassette I run 12-25t, and wouldn't want any bigger range, but with 9spd you could effectively add another cog to say 12-28t but keep the same gaps between gears.
I have just found that you can get an 11-28t 8 speed cassette, but the spacing between the gears is going to be large.

Personally if you are going to upgrade your groupset you might as well go straight to 10 speed so you have smaller jumps and wider gear ratios- the tiagra groupsets aren't much more than complete Sora, although you might want to buy an old 105 rear deraileur in time as the Tiagra one has bad reviews adjustment wise.

EDIT: The 'performance' benefit from changing from 8 to even 10spd will be small, almost certainly smaller than the comfort benefits of a carbon fork if your alloy one is particularly harsh. However, you would benefit more if you live in an exceptionally hilly area and need the lower gears- if you can get by with 25t on the back then you won't notice much difference.

mroli

TimothyW wrote:

I didn't present it as fact, this would be why I said 'Personally' and 'you'll probably' in order to make it clear that I was stating an opinion.

*shrugs* one of the problems of the internet innit. I thought it came across as you stating fact that you'd quantified through your experience. Doesn't matter though as, as you say:

TimothyW wrote:

get a test ride and see which you prefer to ride, as that is what is really important.

PERSONALLY and IN MY OPINION ( ) I think 8 speed will be around for a while and that if you're not going to 10 (or now 11) speed, you might as well stick with 8 speed. I'd love Sram to do an 8 speed doubletap system, I'm not interested in 11 speed from 10, but would like the option of a cheap option with Sram shifting.
What I think of Claris - its fine. You have to get used to the thumb shifters, it doesn't look as cool as the "better" systems, but it changes gear, gives you a decent range, no massive "jumps" although there are some holes in the range and has stood up well (so far) this winter. We all buy too much into the latest must haves - Claris doesn't hold me back as a rider...

tangled_metal

Newer Claris has no thumb shifter but are like sora and above. Someone on a bike forum wrote that either Claris or Sora was similar to old 105 shifters. Actually I think it was an online magazine or forum's review of Claris.

hammond1975

Claris or Sora are both good choices, 8 and 9 speed will be around for a while yet.

passout

Re shifters: I now have 8 speed microshit shifters on my new 2014 GT GTR Series 4 (or was it 3?). Other compoents are Shimano 2300 I think. Works much better than a full 2300 groupset I had on the previous bike - the 2300 shifters weren't great (I've heard Claris is much better though). To be honest I'm thinking on moving to microshift on other bikes in the future, I've been so impressed. Would certainly choose microshift shifters over bottom end shimano.