Brake Caliper Upgrade

mtbjunkie08

Hi,

I recently bought a Trek 1.2 (2014) and although the frame is beautiful and generally the ride is excellent, on steep descents i'm finding the brakes are definitely not good enough, I have to start braking near the top of the descent to make sure I stop in time for a roundabout/junction.

The bike currently has unbranded alloy dual-pivot brakes (I suspect Tektro) and Shimano Sora (ST-3503) Shifters/levers, I was considering upgrading to Shimano 105 (5700/5800) calipers but I have read mixed views about the compatability of these components.

According to the Shimano compatability chart here: http://www.celebrazio.net/bicycling/shi ... ility.html, the 105 5800 ARE compatible with ST-3500 shifter/levers, however these are the double chainset version of the levers, my triple chainset (ST-3503) version are not listed on the table.

My concern comes from reading the response to a customers question here: http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/shim ... -prod50502
Where the staff replies that they are not compatible despite another customer saying they have them working ok.

So can anyone give me a more definitive answer as to whether my combination of components will work together?

Thanks.

dj58

If you look at the Shimano BR-5800 DM-BR0003-06-ENG.pdf, access the pdf file from this page http://si.shimano.com/#seriesList/18

Page 5 shows a brake caliper and dual control lever compatibility table, and while it does not list the 3503 version of the STI, I can't think why the brake cable operation mechanism would be different between the double and triple versions.

However for your peace of mind you could try contacting Madison to ask the question email Sales@madison.co.uk

rrsodl

mtbjunkie08 wrote:

Hi,

I recently bought a Trek 1.2 (2014) and although the frame is beautiful and generally the ride is excellent, on steep descents i'm finding the brakes are definitely not good enough, I have to start braking near the top of the descent to make sure I stop in time for a roundabout/junction.

The bike currently has unbranded alloy dual-pivot brakes (I suspect Tektro) and Shimano Sora (ST-3503) Shifters/levers, I was considering upgrading to Shimano 105 (5700/5800) calipers but I have read mixed views about the compatability of these components.

According to the Shimano compatability chart here: http://www.celebrazio.net/bicycling/shi ... ility.html, the 105 5800 ARE compatible with ST-3500 shifter/levers, however these are the double chainset version of the levers, my triple chainset (ST-3503) version are not listed on the table.

My concern comes from reading the response to a customers question here: http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/shim ... -prod50502
Where the staff replies that they are not compatible despite another customer saying they have them working ok.

So can anyone give me a more definitive answer as to whether my combination of components will work together?

Thanks.

Don't worry if the st-3503 aren't listed, if the st-3500 are listed that's all you need to know. Double or triple has to do with gear shifting not braking. The braking part (cable pull would be the same on both)

I wouldn't take too much notice of what chain reaction staff have to say..... they only read what is on the installation instructions and a lot of the time they are way over too conservative. Lots of people find these things out by themselves. With rear derailleurs. cranksets or chains are all good examples. I have a bike that brakes most of the installation guidelines and everything works perfectly. 10 speed derailleur, even a 7 speed would work. 8 speed cassette, 9 speed chain (8 or 10 would be just as good), 10 speed crankset (7,8,9 or even 11 speed would work) and a 10 speed Campagnolio shifters, furthermore, 7900 Dura Ace brakes which aren't supposed to be backwards compatible nor work with lower groupsets and yet they work beautifully with my Campagnolo shifters.

On a club run last summer somebody realised that my bike had a few different components so they asked basically what I just said above and after a few laughs and jokes they had to accept that my bike was the only one that didn't have the chain rubbing in any gear combination and that gear changing was as sweet as the full Dura Ace bike a fellow rider had and the brakes were just as good too.

mtbjunkie08

Thanks for all the replies, it seems they should be fine. I've managed to identify the current calipers on the bike as Promax RC482, I'm going to try some new brake pads first (swisstop) but if that doesnt improve things enough I'm assuming the 105 calipers will be much better than the stock ones?

rrsodl

mtbjunkie08 wrote:

Thanks for all the replies, it seems they should be fine. I've managed to identify the current calipers on the bike as Promax RC482, I'm going to try some new brake pads first (swisstop) but if that doesnt improve things enough I'm assuming the 105 calipers will be much better than the stock ones?

Good luck with that but I'd say the new pads wont make that much of a difference.

My experience with brakes is that unless you get some decent brake callipers you waist time and money.

105 brakes are pretty good, I have a set 5700 somewhere that I removed from my bike when I upgraded to Dura Ace. I'd say if they don't stop you then there is something not right with the way you are setting your brakes up.

For brakes I'd avoid Tektro, I've had Tektro mechanical disc IO brakes on a bike and "they are as effective as using a celery stick to stop a bike." Not my quote but I share the opinion 100%. In full knowledge of that I went and I bought a set or rim callipers cause is the only callipers I found in black and long reach and although they are a bit better than the disc IO brakes, the aren't to be trusted. I should be replacing them with Shimano R650 in silver, I no longer care what colour they are, I just want to stop when I pull the brakes

dj58

mtbjunkie08 wrote:

Thanks for all the replies, it seems they should be fine. I've managed to identify the current calipers on the bike as Promax RC482, I'm going to try some new brake pads first (swisstop) but if that doesnt improve things enough I'm assuming the 105 calipers will be much better than the stock ones?

Agree with RRSODL, buy the BR-5700 and fit the new Swisstop Blue BXP pads and your braking worries will be over.
http://www.swissstop.ch/tech/compounds/bxp/

ayjaycee

I've got a Specialized Allez Elite that came with 'Axis 1' brakes which, I think, are by Tektro. I was too used to the stopping power power of disks on my hybrid and really missed it on the Allez so changed the calipers to Tiagra which improved things performance wise (and cosmetically as I now have Tiagra all round with matching colour!). I further upgraded with the Swisstop Blue BXP pads mentioned above by DJ58 and braking performance is now night and day compared to the originals, even in the wet. The whole upgrade was not exactly cheap but peace of mind never is and the extra couple of feet (or whatever) might also mean the difference between life and death which would be worth every penny.

banditvic

Don't know the compatibility but hired a Cannondale Cadd 10 out in Gran Canaria a few weeks ago and was well impressed with the Brakes. Great place to test over there, lots of descents over 6 miles long with loads of switchback's. My own bikes have Red Force and Ultega 6700 and 5800 felt pretty similar.

slowslowslow

Interesting comments, I have tiara throughout on my Cube and thinking of upgrades. Will used 105 but never Ultegra. Is the difference between the two as much as I have heard? Is it worth the extra money? Would I also need to upgrade the shifters or would the Tiagra ones be comparable?

ayjaycee

Slow,
As I said, although fitting the Tiagra calipers made some difference and a defininite upgrade over the original Axis cheapos, the things that really made the difference were the Swisstop pads - who knows, they may even have shown a similar improvement if I had fitted them to the Axis calipers in the first place.
FWIW, my LBS told me that the Tiagra 4600 shifters would be perfectly compatible with 105 calipers.

dj58

slowslowslow wrote:

Interesting comments, I have tiara throughout on my Cube and thinking of upgrades. Will used 105 but never Ultegra. Is the difference between the two as much as I have heard? Is it worth the extra money? Would I also need to upgrade the shifters or would the Tiagra ones be comparable?

The table I referred to in my earlier post shows your ST-4600 Dual Control shifters are compatible with 105 BR-5700 and BR- 5800 brake calipers. As for the Ultegra components the list shows BR-6800 though not BR-6700 calipers, which is odd and my be a printing omission. The difference between the two, 105 vs Ultegra is quality of finish and design/aesthetics, materials/component parts. The 5800/6800 have been redesigned to offer increased power and improved tyre clearance

"Compared to the previous 105 groupset (5700) Shimano made the brake system more efficient and increased brake power with 10%. This is mainly due to the new symmetrical dual-pivot brake caliper. The brakes are compatible up to 28c tires and also available in a direct mount version (BR-5810)."

wishitwasallflat

slowslowslow wrote:

Interesting comments, I have tiara throughout on my Cube and thinking of upgrades.

I believe a crown is the logical upgrade over a tiara but will it fit under your helmet?




PS : Sorry I just couldn't resist it, happy new year to all.

ayjaycee

I did fleetingly wonder whether all that gold and all those diamonds on the tiara would make you go faster but decided that such comments were beneath me. However, I feel better now that wishitwasallflat has lowered the tone of the thread to the level where expressing such thoughts are considered acceptable.
Again, Happy New Year to all.

slowslowslow

I deserve all I get for those ridiculous typos. Happy new year one and all....:)

wishitwasallflat

ayjaycee wrote:

I did fleetingly wonder whether all that gold and all those diamonds on the tiara would make you go faster but decided that such comments were beneath me. However, I feel better now that wishitwasallflat has lowered the tone of the thread to the level where expressing such thoughts are considered acceptable.
Again, Happy New Year to all.

Thank you, I like to think I make a valuable contribution to the forum, one of my key skills is fearlessly pushing back the boundaries between us and the full depths of crappy puns!

mtbjunkie08

...back on topic. Have just fitted my new Shimano 105 brake calipers, only been a quick test run around the block on flat roads and can tell they are significantly better, looking forward to trying them out on some long steep descents. Really glad I changed them now.

mtbjunkie08

One thing I forgot to mention on the rear calipers even with the brake shoes at their lowest position the top of the brake pad looks very close to the tyre although not actually touching. I would have thought a modern bike like the Trek 1.2 (2014) would have taken standard drop brake calipers fine, am I worrying unnecessarily?

dj58

Is the Trek designed to accept full mudguards, how do the 105's compare to the originals for drop?

Manc33

Used Ultegra - which will cost about the same as a new pair of 105's.

Or if you can snag them for under £60 - Dura-Ace.

New 105's = £40
New Ultegra = £60
New Dura-Ace = No comment.

Used 105's = £25
Used Ultegra = £40
Used Dura-Ace = Can be had for under £50

Before anyone says "Dura-Ace is overkill on a bike like this" or "he isn't racing"... I can't see it that way if you can manage to grab a pair of used DA calipers for only £5-£10 more than new 105 calipers. I know which one I prefer. :P

The only thing is the crash factor, used ones could have been treated real bad (even if they look immaculate) and you'd never know until you fit them on your bike.

imposter2.0

Manc33 wrote:

The only thing is the crash factor, used ones could have been treated real bad (even if they look immaculate) and you'd never know until you fit them on your bike.

What would be the signs to look out for, if you have crash-damaged brake calipers..?

mtbjunkie08

DJ58 wrote:

Is the Trek designed to accept full mudguards, how do the 105's compare to the originals for drop?

Well it has the proper frame bosses to accept full length mudguards so I would think yes. The originals were Promax RC482's which after doing a bit more research appear to be long reach calipers. The tolerance only seems really tight on the rear the front seems fine. Maybe I could just get some Shimano R450/650s for the rear if the 105's turn out to be unsuitable?.

Manc33 wrote:

Used Ultegra - which will cost about the same as a new pair of 105's.

Or if you can snag them for under £60 - Dura-Ace.

New 105's = £40
New Ultegra = £60
New Dura-Ace = No comment.

Used 105's = £25
Used Ultegra = £40
Used Dura-Ace = Can be had for under £50

Before anyone says "Dura-Ace is overkill on a bike like this" or "he isn't racing"... I can't see it that way if you can manage to grab a pair of used DA calipers for only £5-£10 more than new 105 calipers. I know which one I prefer. :P

The only thing is the crash factor, used ones could have been treated real bad (even if they look immaculate) and you'd never know until you fit them on your bike.

Not sure I see your point, the issue isnt over the quality of 105 vs Ultegra vs DA, its whether the 105's are fitting my frame ok.

dj58

See how you go on with them, but check the rear brake and tyre after every ride for signs of the brake pads contacting the tyre side wall.

small_bloke

I have a Trek 1.2 2013 model (latest 9-spd Sora levers). Brake calipers were the first thing i noticed when I bumped into my own garden gate (crikey where have my brakes gone !!!!). Better pads made no difference. New 105 calipers 5700-series made a good difference.

However 105 calipers with Sora levers are not as good as proper 105 levers. Perhaps its something to do with the bend and curves in the levers (combined with the correct curves on calipers) which changes how much braking force is needed from the hands.

My other bikes with 105 levers and 105 calipers have excellent braking power.

lesfirth

Manc33 wrote:

The only thing is the crash factor, used ones could have been treated real bad (even if they look immaculate) and you'd never know until you fit them on your bike.

Apart from someone sawing the caliper arm in half and badly welding it back together before doing an ace weld dressing and polishing job,I have really tried but I can not for the life of me work out anything else that anyone could do to a brake caliper that would fit this scenario. Can anyone else?

imposter2.0

lesfirth wrote:

Manc33 wrote:

The only thing is the crash factor, used ones could have been treated real bad (even if they look immaculate) and you'd never know until you fit them on your bike.

Apart from someone sawing the caliper arm in half and badly welding it back together before doing an ace weld dressing and polishing job,I have really tried but I can not for the life of me work out anything else that anyone could do to a brake caliper that would fit this scenario. Can anyone else?

Me neither. I did ask him earlier, but got no reply.

Manc33

Imposter wrote:

Manc33 wrote:

The only thing is the crash factor, used ones could have been treated real bad (even if they look immaculate) and you'd never know until you fit them on your bike.

What would be the signs to look out for, if you have crash-damaged brake calipers..?

Anything bent that shouldn't be.
Creases in aluminium where its about to give.
Brake shoes that won't quite sit properly on rims.

imposter2.0

Manc33 wrote:

Imposter wrote:

Manc33 wrote:

The only thing is the crash factor, used ones could have been treated real bad (even if they look immaculate) and you'd never know until you fit them on your bike.

What would be the signs to look out for, if you have crash-damaged brake calipers..?

Anything bent that shouldn't be.
Creases in aluminium where its about to give.
Brake shoes that won't quite sit properly on rims.

Got to say, I've never seen a crash-damaged caliper in 25+ years of riding - and calipers that have been 'treated real bad' are usually just a bit dirty, that's all. Overall, they are fairly robust items which are far enough out of the way to never get damaged in a crash - unless you get run over by a tank, or something. Are you sure you know what you're talking about?

rolf_f

lesfirth wrote:

Manc33 wrote:

The only thing is the crash factor, used ones could have been treated real bad (even if they look immaculate) and you'd never know until you fit them on your bike.

Apart from someone sawing the caliper arm in half and badly welding it back together before doing an ace weld dressing and polishing job,I have really tried but I can not for the life of me work out anything else that anyone could do to a brake caliper that would fit this scenario. Can anyone else?

C'mon - would you knowingly re-use this caliper?

DKay

Manc33 wrote:

Imposter wrote:

Manc33 wrote:

The only thing is the crash factor, used ones could have been treated real bad (even if they look immaculate) and you'd never know until you fit them on your bike.

What would be the signs to look out for, if you have crash-damaged brake calipers..?

Anything bent that shouldn't be.
Creases in aluminium where its about to give.
Brake shoes that won't quite sit properly on rims.

mtbjunkie08

Been looking at my long reach caliper options. Originally I was considering the Shimano BR-R450/451s but I then found the BR-R561s. Most places on the net described the BR-R561s as short reach however this guy on ebay says they have a 47-57mm reach: http://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/e11051.m4 ... AGB%3A1123

I messaged him to confirm it, he says hes a Cytech Level 3 bike mechanic who uses the Sheldon article to confirm brake reaches: http://sheldonbrown.com/calipers.html#reach as do most mechanics.
However I'm still not 100% convinced.

I know there are the BR-R650s but they only do them in silver and I'd really prefer black to match the rest of my components.

So can anyone tell me how the BR-R450/451 perform compared to 105s as i believe they are only Tiagra level quality. Also can anyone confirm what the reach and performance of the BR-R561s are?

Thanks.

kajjal

The r650's are better than 105's and very good for rim brakes. I was thinking the same as you but decided I needed better brakes rather than being concerned about them being silver.