Cero AR24

handful

I'm looking around for a good value lightish wheelset and I know the Cero AR30 seems to be well thought of. They are now doing a cheaper version which is still very light for the cash (£175) with a claimed weight of 1545g. I'm assuming that using the old advice that wheels can only be two out of the three from light, cheap and strong I'm assuming these must be pretty flexy and weak?

Does anyone have any experience of these?

I do have a decent offer of a set of Fulcrum Racing Quattros for the same kind of money, (£163) I'm assuming that from the reviews I've read about them that they will be stronger with the weight disadvantage. Would that 200g make any significant difference, I would imagine hardly any in real terms?

galatzo

Not ridden them but saw them in the flesh on Saturday and they look pretty good, although not as nice as the AR30s.
I too have the offer on the Quattros and personally I think I’ll leave it and wait till spring when I have a bit more cash available.
Quattros do seem a bit hefty but I think they are pretty strong so depends on your requirements.

handful

Thanks Galatzo. The Fulcrums will look very nice on my new bike I think as it has an aero settube/post, probably better than even the Zondas would have but the weight does put me off just a tad. Hmm, decisions. I'm not particlarly quick to be honest so I'm sure the Quattros won't hold me back too much so I may go for them, unless I get a better offer in the meantime.

Bobbinogs

handful wrote:

...Would that 200g make any significant difference, I would imagine hardly any in real terms?

A lot gets written about weight and my bike definitely feels heavier when I have 2 full water bottles added to it (so that's 1 kg extra). However, add in rider weight and any difference becomes meaningless.

In my case, rider weight (65kg) + bike (guessing at 10kg) = 75kg. So, how much difference will 200g make? I don't think you need to be a scientist to work that out.

Sure, a lot of folks will write long posts about rotational weight but (even if that made any difference to simple weight) the percentages are just minimal.

handful

Thanks Bobbinogs, pretty much what I thought, stiffness and strength more important so a vote for the Quattros!. Can anyone tell me what the hubs are like on the Fulcrums, are they quieter than the Mavic hubs? I'm not a lover of noisy hubs so that's a consideration as well. Thanks.

galatzo

Bobbinogs wrote:

handful wrote:

...Would that 200g make any significant difference, I would imagine hardly any in real terms?

A lot gets written about weight and my bike definitely feels heavier when I have 2 full water bottles added to it (so that's 1 kg extra). However, add in rider weight and any difference becomes meaningless.

In my case, rider weight (65kg) + bike (guessing at 10kg) = 75kg. So, how much difference will 200g make? I don't think you need to be a scientist to work that out.

Sure, a lot of folks will write long posts about rotational weight but (even if that made any difference to simple weight) the percentages are just minimal.

I agree 200 grams isn’t much in the scale of things but add all them little bits together and it may give you a 7kg bike instead of an 8kg bike and when you pick that 7kg bike up it’s a very satisfying feeling.
Honestly what average rider can feel the difference between their bike with 2 full water bottles and 2 empty ones ? It’s the buzz of picking a light bike up just as we set off that we’re paying for, well I am !

letap73

handful wrote:

Thanks Bobbinogs, pretty much what I thought, stiffness and strength more important so a vote for the Quattros!. Can anyone tell me what the hubs are like on the Fulcrums, are they quieter than the Mavic hubs? I'm not a lover of noisy hubs so that's a consideration as well. Thanks.

The extra 200g on the fulcrum quattros does not make them "stronger" or stiffer. The quattros have 16 spokes on the front which is a very low number and just 21 spokes on the rear which is likely to lead to a less stiff wheelset.

Bobbinogs

Galatzo wrote:

Bobbinogs wrote:

handful wrote:

...Would that 200g make any significant difference, I would imagine hardly any in real terms?

A lot gets written about weight and my bike definitely feels heavier when I have 2 full water bottles added to it (so that's 1 kg extra). However, add in rider weight and any difference becomes meaningless.

In my case, rider weight (65kg) + bike (guessing at 10kg) = 75kg. So, how much difference will 200g make? I don't think you need to be a scientist to work that out.

Sure, a lot of folks will write long posts about rotational weight but (even if that made any difference to simple weight) the percentages are just minimal.

I agree 200 grams isn’t much in the scale of things but add all them little bits together and it may give you a 7kg bike instead of an 8kg bike and when you pick that 7kg bike up it’s a very satisfying feeling.
Honestly what average rider can feel the difference between their bike with 2 full water bottles and 2 empty ones ? It’s the buzz of picking a light bike up just as we set off that we’re paying for, well I am !

So, all I need to do when I want to go out for a great ride is pick my bike up before I add the full bottles, saddle bag, mudguards and pump...get a buzz that will help me fly up hills...and then add everything back on prior to going out (whilst carefully avoiding picking the bike up again for fear that my buzz may evaporate).

I will give it a go tomorrow and see what Strava makes of it all

ugo.santalucia

letap73 wrote:

The quattros have 16 spokes on the front which is a very low number and just 21 spokes on the rear which is likely to lead to a less stiff wheelset.

That's not necessarily correct. The 21 spokes are on a 7:14 pattern, which allows to open the flange up and still have the non drive side in tension. As a result you can get a pretty stiff wheel, which has 14 spokes on the weak side, like a 28 spoker and 7 on the strong side, which can be enough if the geometry is right. Of course in the long run you will pay a price in terms of mileage, but in these days of throw away habits and easy fingers on the sales chances are the wheels will be upgraded before they are dead.

If the OP is set on 1545 grams, a low spoke count is almost a given as those 28/32 spokers which weigh like that are not free of compromises anyway

arthur_scrimshaw

I recently bought a set of Quattros, I find they are very stiff - much more so than the Aksiums they replaced.

galatzo

Bobbinogs wrote:

Galatzo wrote:

Bobbinogs wrote:

handful wrote:

...Would that 200g make any significant difference, I would imagine hardly any in real terms?

A lot gets written about weight and my bike definitely feels heavier when I have 2 full water bottles added to it (so that's 1 kg extra). However, add in rider weight and any difference becomes meaningless.

In my case, rider weight (65kg) + bike (guessing at 10kg) = 75kg. So, how much difference will 200g make? I don't think you need to be a scientist to work that out.

Sure, a lot of folks will write long posts about rotational weight but (even if that made any difference to simple weight) the percentages are just minimal.

I agree 200 grams isn’t much in the scale of things but add all them little bits together and it may give you a 7kg bike instead of an 8kg bike and when you pick that 7kg bike up it’s a very satisfying feeling.
Honestly what average rider can feel the difference between their bike with 2 full water bottles and 2 empty ones ? It’s the buzz of picking a light bike up just as we set off that we’re paying for, well I am !

So, all I need to do when I want to go out for a great ride is pick my bike up before I add the full bottles, saddle bag, mudguards and pump...get a buzz that will help me fly up hills...and then add everything back on prior to going out (whilst carefully avoiding picking the bike up again for fear that my buzz may evaporate).

I will give it a go tomorrow and see what Strava makes of it all

Saddle bag

If I can't convince myself it'll be as nice as riding round Mallorca out there then I'm staying in !
Best kit always !

handful

ugo.santalucia wrote:

letap73 wrote:

The quattros have 16 spokes on the front which is a very low number and just 21 spokes on the rear which is likely to lead to a less stiff wheelset.

That's not necessarily correct. The 21 spokes are on a 7:14 pattern, which allows to open the flange up and still have the non drive side in tension. As a result you can get a pretty stiff wheel, which has 14 spokes on the weak side, like a 28 spoker and 7 on the strong side, which can be enough if the geometry is right. Of course in the long run you will pay a price in terms of mileage, but in these days of throw away habits and easy fingers on the sales chances are the wheels will be upgraded before they are dead.

If the OP is set on 1545 grams, a low spoke count is almost a given as those 28/32 spokers which weigh like that are not free of compromises anyway

Thanks ugo, ok bit of a curved ball now, would Zondas be an overall better package than the Quattros for a pricepoint say £70-75 more? Are Zondas as strong/robust/stiff as the Quattros as well as being lighter?

ugo.santalucia

handful wrote:

Thanks ugo, ok bit of a curved ball now, would Zondas be an overall better package than the Quattros for a pricepoint say £70-75 more? Are Zondas as strong/robust/stiff as the Quattros as well as being lighter?

They are pretty much the same thing with a shallower rim, which justifies the minuscule weight difference. I would not expect one to be better than the other.

handful

ugo.santalucia wrote:

handful wrote:

Thanks ugo, ok bit of a curved ball now, would Zondas be an overall better package than the Quattros for a pricepoint say £70-75 more? Are Zondas as strong/robust/stiff as the Quattros as well as being lighter?

They are pretty much the same thing with a shallower rim, which justifies the minuscule weight difference. I would not expect one to be better than the other.

Great, thanks. I suppose as often happens these days the Zonda praise went viral and they now appear to be miles better than anything else (at the price point) and everyone recommends them therefore enhancing their reputation when in reality there's hardly anything to separate them. I think I'll ponder overnight and make a decision in the morning!

Any more views on the Zonda v Quattro question appreciated!

letap73

Assuming you have a working wheel set right now - why not save some money, be more certain of the characteristics you want for your wheel set and buy possibly when the weather gets better, you could consider some hand builts for £200+. Or if you want some weight saving something like this:

http://www.justridingalong.com/wheels/i ... elset.html

The problem with some non bespoke wheel sets (but not all of them) is that if something goes wrong then it can be expensive to repair the wheels i.e. a non standard spoke breaks - like the ones on the Fulcrum Quattro for example. If one spoke goes on a low spoke count wheel, like the Quattros, the more likely it will lead to a wheel that is maybe impossible to fix. If you see the wheel set as potentially a disposable item that you will replace in a medium term then that is not a problem.

handful

Probably not a bad suggestion, I was happy to do just this with my new bike which I will be collecting in a couple of weeks. It's coming with Aksiums and I was going to run with them for now until the Zonda Wiggle thing last week when I succumbed and bought some. I then agreed to sell the Aksiums to a colleague at work before finding out that the deal on the Zondas weren't going through after all! I could go back on the deal I agreed with my colleague but feel honour bound to go through with it really and as I can get the Racing Quattros for the price I had thought I'd paid for the Zondas so it's tempting to go for it. (which is only a few quid more than the Aksiums) Or I could add £70 odd quid and get the Zondas that I thought I had last week albeit at a higher price.

I will sleep on it I think, thanks for the suggestions though.

passout

I've was looking at wheels too a while back. I really like the Zondas - I think PBK and Bike Discount had some discounted by 20 or 30%. Planet x had some FSA wheels for 150 quid which as a bargain - hard to get clinchers on them though apparently...? Wiggle had Fulcrum Racing 3s for about 300'ish too. For around 315 you can get Hope Hoops (hanbuilt with Open Pro rims) - which is what I went for - still well under 1.7. I like the Hope wheels. Although since I saw these which seem like remarkable value: http://www.superstarcomponents.com/en/p ... t-2024.htm

ugo.santalucia

passout wrote:

I've was looking at wheels too a while back. I really like the Zondas - I think PBK and Bike Discount had some discounted by 20 or 30%. Planet x had some FSA wheels for 150 quid which as a bargain - hard to get clinchers on them though apparently...? Wiggle had Fulcrum Racing 3s for about 300'ish too. For around 315 you can get Hope Hoops (hanbuilt with Open Pro rims) - which is what I went for - still well under 1.7. I like the Hope wheels. Although since I saw these which seem like remarkable value: http://www.superstarcomponents.com/en/p ... t-2024.htm

I never owned a car that I actually wanted... I always bought cars based on what bargain was around, basically because I am too poor to afford to actually choose a car among those that I would like to own and drive... and I am talking in the 20-25K range... even those are way to pricy for me.

The good thing about a bicycle is that generally speaking I can afford what I really want... I could afford a 5 K bike if I really wanted one. Because cycling is a passion of mine, I don't really want to compromise on what is on offer at the moment, because I already have to do it for many other things in life I care less about. So if I want a pair of Hope Hubs that cost 200 quid, I buy them when I've got the money and I don't compromise and get some Joytech instead because they are only 50 quid after all the discounts and sales...
If you have no passion and just ride your bike to work because it's better than taking the train, then by all means get the best deals out there, but if you have passion for the sport, get what you want, rather than what's on offer. If you want the Zonda, get the Zonda at the best price you can get, but don't buy them just because they are cheap and hence they must be a bargain

passout

ugo.santalucia wrote:

passout wrote:

I've was looking at wheels too a while back. I really like the Zondas - I think PBK and Bike Discount had some discounted by 20 or 30%. Planet x had some FSA wheels for 150 quid which as a bargain - hard to get clinchers on them though apparently...? Wiggle had Fulcrum Racing 3s for about 300'ish too. For around 315 you can get Hope Hoops (hanbuilt with Open Pro rims) - which is what I went for - still well under 1.7. I like the Hope wheels. Although since I saw these which seem like remarkable value: http://www.superstarcomponents.com/en/p ... t-2024.htm

I never owned a car that I actually wanted... I always bought cars based on what bargain was around, basically because I am too poor to afford to actually choose a car among those that I would like to own and drive... and I am talking in the 20-25K range... even those are way to pricy for me.

The good thing about a bicycle is that generally speaking I can afford what I really want... I could afford a 5 K bike if I really wanted one. Because cycling is a passion of mine, I don't really want to compromise on what is on offer at the moment, because I already have to do it for many other things in life I care less about. So if I want a pair of Hope Hubs that cost 200 quid, I buy them when I've got the money and I don't compromise and get some Joytech instead because they are only 50 quid after all the discounts and sales...
If you have no passion and just ride your bike to work because it's better than taking the train, then by all means get the best deals out there, but if you have passion for the sport, get what you want, rather than what's on offer. If you want the Zonda, get the Zonda at the best price you can get, but don't buy them just because they are cheap and hence they must be a bargain

Just to clarify - I did get the Hope hubs / wheels and wanted (for 315) by the way. Good investment IMO. I have some sympathy with this view and obviously see the link between nice stuff and a nice ride, however my passion is on the expereince of cycling itself rather than on the eqipment that facilitates it - I'm guessing it's both for you? It might be a fine distinction but it does mean that i'm not too bothered about brands or looks as long as it does the job & feels right on the bike. Different sides of the same coin perhaps?

handful

Thanks for the comments gents. I've decided to go with the Racing Quattros, with my limited ability I'm not going to notice the weight difference and they will suit the bike better I think. For £163 they aren't going to break the bank if they do break but they do seem pretty robust so will hopefully last for a few years!

I think next time round I will seriously look at the hand-built route, I'm a bit of a new and late comer to the roadbike scene and although my knowledge has increased dramatically I'm still not sure what I really want if I'm honest so have settled for an inexpensive option that will hopefully do the job for now!