Carbon frames break more often. Really?
Comments
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on-yer-bike wrote:robbo2011 wrote:ugo.santalucia wrote:robbo2011 wrote:But what was wrong with it?
You called someone luddite... the way you phrased it sounded you were calling me luddite... it just creates unnecessary tensions.
To answer your question... warranty claims for faulty/defective frames are on the rise and not just at Canyon
Ok fair enough but i was thinking more about the original article than individual posters.
Is calling someone a luddite that much of an insult? Some people are happy to be luddites. Ernesto Colnago is reluctant to build frames that are ultra light mine weighs 1200 g without forks
Oxford English Dictionary definition of Luddite.
DEROGATORY A person opposed to increased industrialization or new technology.
Serious insult. I think High Court action is your only option. :shock:0 -
It's easy to disregard as a "luddite" someone because he questions the point of some aspects of what is called innovation. Accepting with a smile every piece of overpriced tat promoted as "new technology" is not everyone's cup of tea. I never questioned disc brakes on road bicycles and I was an early adopter, before you even knew they were there... other innovations leave me cold or perplexed. I think "luddite" is part of this process of branding an individual which is no different from xenophobia or racism... just socially acceptable, but no less disrespectful...
That's why I deleted the commentleft the forum March 20230 -
ugo.santalucia wrote:I think "luddite" is part of this process of branding an individual which is no different from xenophobia or racism... just socially acceptable, but no less disrespectful...
That's why I deleted the comment
So how come lawrences comment on this thread.......
http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=40013&t=12977205&start=80
is allowed to stand?
Does it depend on which race we are being disrespectful to?"You really think you can burn off sugar with exercise?" downhill paul0 -
Ugo has always been very helpful and friendly on this forum, which is a tough task for a moderator.
Maybe time to calm down and let it go.0 -
Kajjal wrote:Ugo has always been very helpful and friendly on this forum, which is a tough task for a moderator.
Maybe time to calm down and let it go.
I agree totally.
But I'm just asking a legitimate question.
"You really think you can burn off sugar with exercise?" downhill paul0 -
Charlie Potatoes wrote:
I agree totally.
But I'm just asking a legitimate question.
Charlie, if you want it removed, report it!left the forum March 20230 -
I am amazed that we have so many "experts" on the forum in cycle frame design, materials/composite selection, and strength/fatigue testing that can speak with such knowledge. Why aren't they working for the major bike manufacturers and sorting out these issues for them?
Come on - it might be "just a bike frame" but the technology and engineering that goes into these frames is immense. The design specifications will be a massive document and the level of testing performed - both virtual and physical will exceed all but the 99th percentile use in the public's hands. And that's without the lawyers reviewing the design and protecting the company from litigation.
Until we have a technical specialist from these companies commenting everything this else is just opinion. Just cos its in the internet does not make it true.0 -
Captain Chaos wrote:I am amazed that we have so many "experts" on the forum in cycle frame design, materials/composite selection, and strength/fatigue testing that can speak with such knowledge. Why aren't they working for the major bike manufacturers and sorting out these issues for them?
Come on - it might be "just a bike frame" but the technology and engineering that goes into these frames is immense. The design specifications will be a massive document and the level of testing performed - both virtual and physical will exceed all but the 99th percentile use in the public's hands. And that's without the lawyers reviewing the design and protecting the company from litigation.
Until we have a technical specialist from these companies commenting everything this else is just opinion. Just cos its in the internet does not make it true.
I wish I was more like you.. putting my trust in a sticker and not having second thoughts... sadly if I haven't done it myself, I always think it's a piece of crap...
It becomes a problem in boarding an aircraft... :?left the forum March 20230 -
ugo.santalucia wrote:Charlie Potatoes wrote:
I agree totally.
But I'm just asking a legitimate question.
Charlie, if you want it removed, report it!
I don't want it removed. I have probably made worse comments myself.
It was more an observation that it seems to be okay to mock certain racial groups and not others.
In this case it is the Chinese.
I mean generally and not just on this forum."You really think you can burn off sugar with exercise?" downhill paul0 -
I've been looking at the websites of some of the smaller Chinese manufacturers who sell under their own names. Their test rigs consist of washing machine motors connected to weights.
The larger manufacturers have 7 or 8 different rigs operated hydraulically or by compressed air and connected up to data logging. They also have scanners to look inside frames. Science vs trial and error.
The videos by Giant on Youtube, filmed in their Taiwan factory, show just how complex high end carbon frame making is.0 -
adamfo wrote:I've been looking at the websites of some of the smaller Chinese manufacturers who sell under their own names. Their test rigs consist of washing machine motors connected to weights.
The larger manufacturers have 7 or 8 different rigs operated hydraulically or by compressed air and connected up to data logging. They also have scanners to look inside frames. Science vs trial and error.
The videos by Giant on Youtube, filmed in their Taiwan factory, show just how complex high end carbon frame making is.
Yet there's a guy on here with a Giant frame full of fractures ! :roll:0 -
I've been down the road a few times on my Look, I've snapped the rear mech hanger, broken STIs, damaged seats, pedals and handle bars but that frame is still as solid as a rock.......hopefully.0
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Bozman wrote:I've been down the road a few times on my Look, I've snapped the rear mech hanger, broken STIs, damaged seats, pedals and handle bars but that frame is still as solid as a rock.......hopefully.
Look have been making carbon frames before anybody else in the business, Hinault was already riding Carbon! I expect them to know a thing or two more than Canyon and the other last minute adopters. Look make their own frames in their own plant in Tunisia and do not outsource to "ABC composites Inc." like many others. If I was to buy a carbon frame, it would probably be a Lookleft the forum March 20230 -
So do you build your own house, car, mobile phone, etc? I guess not
That's why successful companies have large R&D teams to make sure that the "sticker" (which you can't use unless some external body has validated the product) can be applied and the product meets specification and function.
And even when you do build things yourself you are using components that have been through the same design and verification process as the finished product. The most detailed work is done on the components and sub-systems - the final product testing is normally much more of a validation of the interactions rather than the overall product.
By the way I am an engineer - but I know nothing about composites and their use in structures. But I know other engineers who do have that knowledge have specified the requirements and then have designed and verified those products to those specifications0 -
Captain Chaos wrote:So do you build your own house, car, mobile phone, etc? I guess not
That's why successful companies have large R&D teams to make sure that the "sticker" (which you can't use unless some external body has validated the product) can be applied and the product meets specification and function.
And even when you do build things yourself you are using components that have been through the same design and verification process as the finished product. The most detailed work is done on the components and sub-systems - the final product testing is normally much more of a validation of the interactions rather than the overall product.
By the way I am an engineer - but I know nothing about composites and their use in structures. But I know other engineers who do have that knowledge have specified the requirements and then have designed and verified those products to those specifications
You have to use the quote function, otherwise we don't know who you are referring to.
Of course not, but that is MY problem, that of being uncomfortable when riding I bike I have not assembled myself... it is some form of paranoia, but I genuinely would prefer to be different and to just trust the brand/shop.left the forum March 20230 -
TIME have been making carbon frames in France for many years. They weaves their own custom tubular carbon layers then use a resin transfer molding technique.
Impressive client list
http://www.time-sport.com/time-france/t ... spx?me=128
Look outsource their cheaper frame range to the far east.0 -
Very impressive client list.adamfo wrote:TIME have been making carbon frames in France for many years. They weaves their own custom tubular carbon layers then use a resin transfer molding technique.
Impressive client list
http://www.time-sport.com/time-france/t ... spx?me=128
Look outsource their cheaper frame range to the far east.
I have one.
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ugo.santalucia wrote:It's easy to disregard as a "luddite" someone because he questions the point of some aspects of what is called innovation. Accepting with a smile every piece of overpriced tat promoted as "new technology" is not everyone's cup of tea. I never questioned disc brakes on road bicycles and I was an early adopter, before you even knew they were there... other innovations leave me cold or perplexed. I think "luddite" is part of this process of branding an individual which is no different from xenophobia or racism... just socially acceptable, but no less disrespectful...
That's why I deleted the comment
So Luddite is no different to xenophobia or racism.
Hmmm... What about "dinosaur"? From one of your recent posts.
"Jeez, what a dinosaur... they said the same things 5 years ago. Disc brakes are very stable, I can assure you"
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Dippydog2 wrote:"Jeez, what a dinosaur... they said the same things 5 years ago. Disc brakes are very stable, I can assure you"
Happy to delete if it bothers... I'm not here to be an example... but well spotted... shows dedication... left the forum March 20230 -
madasahattersley wrote:Not sure why Time are used as an example. They've not got a good reputation for quality or service at all!
In that case Airbus and Boeing are going to start falling out of the sky.
Frame production article here
http://road.cc/content/feature/76753-inside-time0 -
I agree with Ugo in that a carbon road frame still should be able to take the stress of something like cobblestones. I mean they should be strong enough to ride exclusively on cobblestones, because you're always going to hit bumps like that in roads every now and then. I have seen bumps in tarmac in my local area I have to make sure the pedal doesn't hit, nevermind the wheels! The sort of bump you must steer around. More of a miniature tarmac molehill.0
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Reputation with who?madasahattersley wrote:Not sure why Time are used as an example. They've not got a good reputation for quality or service at all!0 -
Well, I would have thought you do. If you say something has a bad reputation your opinion must be based on something you heard or saw.madasahattersley wrote:Dippydog2 wrote:
Reputation with who?madasahattersley wrote:Not sure why Time are used as an example. They've not got a good reputation for quality or service at all!
Do I need a source? Reputation among the cycling community is the only real answer to that question.
I think if you criticise something in public it is not unreasonable to ask where you got your information from.
An extensive search on the internet will tell you almost nothing about Time, apart from the fact that they did supply a pro team for some period, but no longer do so. There really is no such thing as "the cycling community" is there? It's just what you have heard from people that you met.
You probably know lots of people who cycle or are in the business, but...
Do any of them know about carbon frame manufacture processes?
Have any of them had a Time frame?
Etc. etc.0 -
Time frames seem to get good reviews from this very website
http://www.bikeradar.com/gear/category/ ... -12-45799/0 -
Well this is the problem with all internet forums. It's all too easy for opinions to get passed off as facts, when they are nothing of the sort. A healthy dose of scepticism should be employed when visiting any internet forum.0
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robbo2011 wrote:Well this is the problem with all internet forums. It's all too easy for opinions to get passed off as facts, when they are nothing of the sort. A healthy dose of scepticism should be employed when visiting any internet forum.
A healthy dose of skepticism should be always at hand, regardless of where you go. When your prime minister lies about rather important issues, which end up with hundreds of people buried before their time, how can you expect a company that has to make a big profit to stay afloat to be transparent?
Trust is given away too easily these days and I don't think the internet is a worse place than any other place, when it comes to % of BSleft the forum March 20230 -
I rely on the advice of some bloke on the interweb for all my purchasing decisions, just like monsieur Hollande
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Comedy journalism. Reading through it you'd think the guys knows nothing about cycling, materials science and is lacking a bit of common sense.0
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madasahattersley wrote:Yeah basically it's stuff I've heard from other people. That's how reputation works, and I've worked in and been around cycling/the cycle trade long enough to get a feel of the reputation of most big companies.
Speaking of 'this very website':
viewtopic.php?t=12869756&p=17780380
That one story alone is enough to damage their reputation to me, and I wouldn't buy one of their bikes.
BUT I've also got a friend who had an Ulteam which failed and was not replaced under warranty, and Steve Hogg who I trust and I think is one of the most level headed people in cycling also has unfavourable things to say not only about the bikes but about other products too. It also doesn't take long to uproot horror stories just by google searching "Time Ulteam ....." (insert crack/fail/break as appropriate).
Now clearly you're going to object to whatever I say if you own a Time and I'm sure it's a lovely bike or whatever don't really care, nor do I have anything against Time because they aren't any worse than tons of companies out there but don't hold them up on a pedestal saying "Time make all their things in France, you don't need far east production" etc etc because it's rubbish.
Ok, so you have a friend with a bad experience, and read a two year old article.
The thing these days is that with our consumer legislation you don't have to really worry about manufacturers. Your recourse is to the retailer. That's why I buy from big companies in England.
Anyway, it wasn't me who said anything about Far East production. And it's nothing to do whatsoever with what I own. I just like a little perspective, and dismissing a product or company based on heresay and the odd comment from mates is a sure sigh of youthful inexperience.0 -
That helps and is certainly enough if you own n + 1 bikes. If you don't and maybe only own a race bike for sundays and a heavy commuter with mudguards and a rack, you might end up missing your summer riding completely because you have to wait 3 months to get a replacement frame. It does happen, it's not even unfrequent. I for one was due to wait months to get a replacement (indeed cracked carbon) fork for my everyday steel bike and ended up buying one instead to avoid being off the bike for months and having to commute by train. Moral is I am 150 quid off pocket, so my warranty is just as good as toilet paper for what I am concerned.Dippydog2 wrote:The thing these days is that with our consumer legislation you don't have to really worry about manufacturers. Your recourse is to the retailer. That's why I buy from big companies in England.
.left the forum March 20230
