Di2..2 months along….

DavidJB

bobbydazzla wrote:

I'm currently contemplating the idea of buying a new high end bike for next summer, if I go ahead then I think I'll probably stick with mechanical and get DA or Record.

Record...hands down.

gimpl

ugo.santalucia wrote:

I have never tried Di2 or EPS, so I don't have a clue whether they are life-changingly better as far as shifting gears goes. What annoys me is that Shimano and Campagnolo have invested 20 years worth of R&D budget to come out with this technology. Over the past 20 years nothing else significant has come out, which means a lot of money went in this effort. IMO it would have been more beneficial to the consumer if they invested the same effort on road hydraulic brake technology, or something equivalent to an ABS for bicycles, or both. At the end of the day, if I can avoid going down on an unseasonal patch of ice once and spend a couple of months with crutches, it is certainly worth more than any electronic shifting.

So, well done, but it goes to solve a problem that never existed.

I don't have either di2 or disc brakes yet although planning an upgrade to di2 this winter (hopefully in the sale).

I find it quite funny reading people's comments about di2, it reminds me of my old man telling me he'd never buy an automatic car as 'too much to go wrong' or not wanting to buy a video recorder as they haven't settled on the format yet when clearly they had and Betamax was dying fast. Things change, technology changes, exponentially it seems for some things. Either adopt it or don't but don't bleat about it being rubbish, or this is too good for you/your ability, or it's no better than by Tiagra/Claris etc etc.

I highlighted your comment about disc brakes as funnily enough it's one 'upgrade' I do think I can do without. I am used to hard braking on the road after riding a Fireblade around on the road for a number of years and find the rim brakes work perfectly well for me. If I can lock the wheels up what more power do I need ? Modulation ? Well no, that's fine too thank you, again probably due to lots of experience bringing something much faster and heavier to a stop (using the front brake only - the rear is for motocrossers and MTBer's). Having said all that though at some point in the future I probably will have a road bike with disc brakes as it's progress.

Your comment about riding in the ice though. Having come off on the ice and braking my elbow a couple of winters ago I can honestly say that no amount of ABS, disc brakes etc would have prevented that. You may have got away with it for years but if you're riding on icy roads you're an accident waiting to happen no matter how good you think you are.

ugo.santalucia

Gimpl wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

I have never tried Di2 or EPS, so I don't have a clue whether they are life-changingly better as far as shifting gears goes. What annoys me is that Shimano and Campagnolo have invested 20 years worth of R&D budget to come out with this technology. Over the past 20 years nothing else significant has come out, which means a lot of money went in this effort. IMO it would have been more beneficial to the consumer if they invested the same effort on road hydraulic brake technology, or something equivalent to an ABS for bicycles, or both. At the end of the day, if I can avoid going down on an unseasonal patch of ice once and spend a couple of months with crutches, it is certainly worth more than any electronic shifting.

So, well done, but it goes to solve a problem that never existed.

I don't have either di2 or disc brakes yet although planning an upgrade to di2 this winter (hopefully in the sale).

I find it quite funny reading people's comments about di2, it reminds me of my old man telling me he'd never buy an automatic car as 'too much to go wrong' or not wanting to buy a video recorder as they haven't settled on the format yet when clearly they had and Betamax was dying fast. Things change, technology changes, exponentially it seems for some things. Either adopt it or don't but don't bleat about it being rubbish, or this is too good for you/your ability, or it's no better than by Tiagra/Claris etc etc.

I highlighted your comment about disc brakes as funnily enough it's one 'upgrade' I do think I can do without. I am used to hard braking on the road after riding a Fireblade around on the road for a number of years and find the rim brakes work perfectly well for me. If I can lock the wheels up what more power do I need ? Modulation ? Well no, that's fine too thank you, again probably due to lots of experience bringing something much faster and heavier to a stop (using the front brake only - the rear is for motocrossers and MTBer's). Having said all that though at some point in the future I probably will have a road bike with disc brakes as it's progress.

Your comment about riding in the ice though. Having come off on the ice and braking my elbow a couple of winters ago I can honestly say that no amount of ABS, disc brakes etc would have prevented that. You may have got away with it for years but if you're riding on icy roads you're an accident waiting to happen no matter how good you think you are.

You have probably noticed I never mentioned disc brakes... I said hydraulic.

As for the ABS... yes, maybe ice is not the best scenario I could come up with, but you should get my point about lack of grip and tyre locking, which I see a greater problem than sub-second gear shifting. But of course they develop technology for races and unlike what happens in motorsport, once the technology filters down, it is of no particular use. Proof is that a 20 years old bike has virtually the same technology than a new one bar Di2... which is pointless... so in essence, unlike in cars, you only really upgrade as you are bored of the colour scheme of your 1990s racer

gimpl

Ugo - you could say that anything is 'pointless'. To you maybe but you're now conforming to the same stereotype as my old man - 'automatics are pointless - I can change gear on my own'. No doubt he is turning in his grave at my 8 speed auto

I do sort of agree with you though - bike technology does not seem to have come that far.

ugo.santalucia

Gimpl wrote:

Ugo - you could say that anything is 'pointless'. To you maybe but you're now conforming to the same stereotype as my old man - 'automatics are pointless - I can change gear on my own'. No doubt he is turning in his grave at my 8 speed auto

I do sort of agree with you though - bike technology does not seem to have come that far.

Automatic cars do make sense in modern cities.

Indeed, in 1992 you could buy a bike with STI shifters, double chainset and 8 sprockets from 12 to 27 teeth and very decent rim brakes. Some did weigh just over 7 Kg... I am not quite sure what they've been doing at Shimano (and Campagnolo) over 20 years... other than developing this Di2 joke... if you look at a VW Golf for a comparison... :roll:

cswitch

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Gimpl wrote:

Ugo - you could say that anything is 'pointless'. To you maybe but you're now conforming to the same stereotype as my old man - 'automatics are pointless - I can change gear on my own'. No doubt he is turning in his grave at my 8 speed auto

I do sort of agree with you though - bike technology does not seem to have come that far.

Automatic cars do make sense in modern cities.

Indeed, in 1992 you could buy a bike with STI shifters, double chainset and 8 sprockets from 12 to 27 teeth and very decent rim brakes. Some did weigh just over 7 Kg... I am not quite sure what they've been doing at Shimano (and Campagnolo) over 20 years... other than developing this Di2 joke... if you look at a VW Golf for a comparison... :roll:

6wheels

philthy3 wrote:

I'll just wait for the automatic groupset to be developed that lets you set your power threshold and changes gear front and back to maintain your power. Until then it's mechanical for me.

Couldn't agree more, albeit I'd settle for just a rear change. I'm surprised someone with good coding skills hasn't modified one yet...automatic can't be far away.

Bar Shaker

I'm always surprised by the acidity of the negative comments when these threads crop up. Things like 'every Sky rider's bike failed' (of course they did, mate) and 'when it fails it will ruin your whole afternoon' or such like.

Just like any mechanical or electronic device, it can fail. Your television can fail and that may ruin your whole evening... but they don't fail, or at least not on a frequent basis. We don't avoid watching TV because of this risk though.

The thing is this, Di2 keeps everything in perfect tune in a way that mechanical cables and levers cannot. You can be very good with indexing your mechanicals and can get it perfect on a regular basis but mechanical gears are always slowly working their way out of index and you are battling this. Either frequently or periodically you need to fix this creep.

Of course you can forget to charge the battery but this is like forgetting to change your fatally frayed front mech cable. In both cases you only have yourself to blame, rather than blaming the kit.

People also say 'ah yes but if you crash, you will break your rear mech'. So your Red rear mech won't break? Di2 mechs have a crash protection system built in but if I stacked, I would expect a bill for £130 for a new rear mech. How much was your Record rear mech??? Oh dear.

I fully respect all posters that have tried it on hire bikes and decided it's not a big enough leap for them. They are in a minority of those that have tried it, I suspect. I also suspect that high end bikes with out electronic gears will be special order in the near future.

Di2 isn't new and it isn't still suffering teething problems. It is probably the work of the devil and users should probably be tried for witchcraft... But it is bloody good

In fact that's all it is. It's just good and riders have no need to be scared of it, or scared of those that like it.

Oh, and auto really can't be far away...

http://road.cc/content/news/110064-shim ... 2-groupset

mamba80

for many, being able to fix a bike is part of the joy of cycling, so if I trash a mechanical RD or even shifters, I can go to any LBS/Halfords on a Saturday night and buy something that will keep me riding ... not so with Di2
indexing does not need to be tinkered with constantly nor can it be described as a "battle"

its tech for techs sake, of course if you struggle with moving a lever a few mill, then go electronic but it is not the game changer that some make out, any more than 11sp will make you faster.
BUT the front change is very good on all of them, unfortunately, the latest 6800/9000 mechanical set ups have narrowed that considerably.

With top end bikes being ridden so few miles (we don't wear out expensive stuff anymore) manufactures need us to buy something new and as rich consumers, we are usually more than willing to help them out.

Grill

mamba80 wrote:

for many, being able to fix a bike is part of the joy of cycling, so if I trash a mechanical RD or even shifters, I can go to any LBS/Halfords on a Saturday night and buy something that will keep me riding ... not so with Di2
indexing does not need to be tinkered with constantly nor can it be described as a "battle"

This is complete rubbish for 2 reasons. The first is that combination of sites that offer next day shipping and the fact that catastrophic failures are incredibly rare makes this an incredibly unlikely scenario.

The second is that this is just as much an issue when it comes to mechanical groupsets (especially if you have Campag). On two occasions I've gone out looking for shimano chain pins (one 10 speed and one 11 speed) and not been able to find a shop with stock. This is in Bristol and included the Giant concept store, Cycle Surgery, and 2 other independent shops.

Tech for tech's sake is nothing new. Take a look at your car and tell me if you actually need AC or a radio to drive...

thegreatdivide

Bar Shaker wrote:

I'm always surprised by the acidity of the negative comments when these threads crop up. Things like 'every Sky rider's bike failed' (of course they did, mate) and 'when it fails it will ruin your whole afternoon' or such like.

Not Team Sky but a Sky Cycling/Sports event to promote the Tour. Thanks for doubting me though. Some of the examples of the failures on the ride:

Alex Dowsett’s ex Team Sky bike belonging to a CEO – one of the cables from a shifter had worn through under the bar tape so no signal to the junction box.
Front mech stuck in the big ring. The rider attempted to MTFU and finish the first stage like this but the chain kept shipping to the small ring when he went over bumps.
Rear mech stopped shifting so the rider had to limp up a hill to the last feed stop before Sheffield. The mechanic reckoned it had taken a battering from the previous climbs i.e. he was 'shifting too much'. Might be bollxcks but his broken rear mech wasn’t.

As per my first post, I’ve got EPS on a bike and love its smooth shifting, but I made the decision not to do the event on it because manual gearing can generally be fixed by the roadside.

Ben6899

Bar Shaker wrote:

I'm always surprised by the acidity of the negative comments when these threads crop up

Same with Rapha threads, if you'll excuse the pun. Wear what you want. Ride what you want. Live and let live.

Bar Shaker

Grill, I couldn't agree more and that comment was yet another stupid reason not to like Di2. No one says I'm only going to drive cars that I can repair from parts Halfords will sell me at 20.45 on a Saturday night.

thegreatdivide wrote:

Rode from Edinburgh to Sheffield with Sky on a Tour promotional 'thing' at the start of the month. Every single bike with Di2 failed on the way - not an exaggeration - and the owners had to complete the rest of the ride on Sora equipped Boardmans carried by the support car.

I'm not knocking electronic drive trains as I run Record EPS on a bike and love it, but half a dozen various versions of Di2 failing on a 300 mile ride was a bit of an eye opener!

thegreatdivide wrote:

Bar Shaker wrote:

I'm always surprised by the acidity of the negative comments when these threads crop up. Things like 'every Sky rider's bike failed' (of course they did, mate) and 'when it fails it will ruin your whole afternoon' or such like.

Not Team Sky but a Sky Cycling/Sports event to promote the Tour. Thanks for doubting me though. Some of the examples of the failures on the ride:

Alex Dowsett’s ex Team Sky bike belonging to a CEO – one of the cables from a shifter had worn through under the bar tape so no signal to the junction box.
Front mech stuck in the big ring. The rider attempted to MTFU and finish the first stage like this but the chain kept shipping to the small ring when he went over bumps.
Rear mech stopped shifting so the rider had to limp up a hill to the last feed stop before Sheffield. The mechanic reckoned it had taken a battering from the previous climbs i.e. he was 'shifting too much'. Might be bollxcks but his broken rear mech wasn’t.

As per my first post, I’ve got EPS on a bike and love its smooth shifting, but I made the decision not to do the event on it because manual gearing can generally be fixed by the roadside.

Dave - I picked up on this as it was sensationalist. Nothing short of an EM pulse could cause this, well, that or sabotage by a sacked team mechanic. You also imply that it was Team Sky (as opposed to a group of sattelite dish fitters), from whom we would expect the highest possible maintenance standards. This would mean only unreliable kit could be the problem. From what you go on to describe, poor installation/maintenance or simply failing to treat the kit with care would seem to be the cause. It is highly likely that new tape has been fitted and no cable slack allowed for. Plenty of rookie LBS mechanics have done this. The other bike has all the hallmarks of running out of battery. You would check before a 300km ride, simple as that. I have never had mine fail from using it too much, nor know of anyone else that has had this happen!!

I'm sorry if I doubted you wrongly but I am sure I was not alone... from the way you worded your post.


Ben - well said.

lostboysaint

ugo.santalucia wrote:

I have never tried Di2 or EPS, so I don't have a clue whether they are life-changingly better as far as shifting gears goes. What annoys me is that Shimano and Campagnolo have invested 20 years worth of R&D budget to come out with this technology. Over the past 20 years nothing else significant has come out, which means a lot of money went in this effort. IMO it would have been more beneficial to the consumer if they invested the same effort on road hydraulic brake technology, or something equivalent to an ABS for bicycles, or both. At the end of the day, if I can avoid going down on an unseasonal patch of ice once and spend a couple of months with crutches, it is certainly worth more than any electronic shifting.

So, well done, but it goes to solve a problem that never existed.

Like

kingstonian

Well I like my Di2.........

lawrences

Kingstonian wrote:

Well I like my Di2.........

I like my cables... lets argue.

Rodrego Hernandez

thegreatdivide wrote:

Bar Shaker wrote:

I'm always surprised by the acidity of the negative comments when these threads crop up. Things like 'every Sky rider's bike failed' (of course they did, mate) and 'when it fails it will ruin your whole afternoon' or such like.

Not Team Sky but a Sky Cycling/Sports event to promote the Tour. Thanks for doubting me though. Some of the examples of the failures on the ride:

Alex Dowsett’s ex Team Sky bike belonging to a CEO – one of the cables from a shifter had worn through under the bar tape so no signal to the junction box.
Front mech stuck in the big ring. The rider attempted to MTFU and finish the first stage like this but the chain kept shipping to the small ring when he went over bumps.
Rear mech stopped shifting so the rider had to limp up a hill to the last feed stop before Sheffield. The mechanic reckoned it had taken a battering from the previous climbs i.e. he was 'shifting too much'. Might be bollxcks but his broken rear mech wasn’t.

As per my first post, I’ve got EPS on a bike and love its smooth shifting, but I made the decision not to do the event on it because manual gearing can generally be fixed by the roadside.

All read like user error. The CEO rides one of Wiggins old bikes - I think Dowsetts went to lower staff. Granted the team sky mechanics are pretty bad when it comes to servicing the bikes that go to Sky staff but all bikes need to be serviced / batteries charged etc / cables checked. Rear mechs don't stop working because they've been shifted too much! That 'mechanic' is speaking out of his arse. Well maintained gears - mechanical or electronic, work just fine. Both have limitations and as long as you know what they are and accept them then all is good. Don't buy electric and complain that you need to charge it. Don't buy mechanical and complain about cable stretch.

I have experience of ex-team bikes and also of the people who ride them. I wouldn't draw any conclusions based on your encounters.

MattC59

The problem I see with electronic shifting at the moment is it's fugly ! Give it a few years and I might be interested, but at the moment I see nothing wrong with a well maintained mechanical setup. I have Ultegra with Gore sealed cables and shifts are light and fast. I'd perhaps like lighter and faster at the front, but it's not exactly an issue.

Actually, quality cables can make a world of difference in your shifting. The Gore cables are fantastic.... If you can find them anywhere.

kingstonian

MattC59 wrote:

The problem I see with electronic shifting at the moment is it's fugly ! Give it a few years and I might be interested, but at the moment I see nothing wrong with a well maintained mechanical setup. I have Ultegra with Gore sealed cables and shifts are light and fast. I'd perhaps like lighter and faster at the front, but it's not exactly an issue.

Actually, quality cables can make a world of difference in your shifting. The Gore cables are fantastic.... If you can find them anywhere.

I went with an internal battery for this reason - didn't want a big block of battery strapped to the frame.

bernithebiker

Kingstonian wrote:

MattC59 wrote:

The problem I see with electronic shifting at the moment is it's fugly ! Give it a few years and I might be interested, but at the moment I see nothing wrong with a well maintained mechanical setup. I have Ultegra with Gore sealed cables and shifts are light and fast. I'd perhaps like lighter and faster at the front, but it's not exactly an issue.

Actually, quality cables can make a world of difference in your shifting. The Gore cables are fantastic.... If you can find them anywhere.

I went with an internal battery for this reason - didn't want a big block of battery strapped to the frame.

Di2 with a battery hanging off the frame has always been out of the question for me. Just plain poor design.

Now we have the seat tube battery, I'm tempted, but;

a) derailleurs both look big, heavy and ugly
b) it's a BIG price jump over 9000
c) 9000 is excellent.

Still, could be tempted if there's a sale on end of season, as I need to build up a second bike to live in Palma!

kajjal

For me it seems a lot of money for no real gain. Seen similar arguments when suspension, disc brakes etc. first came to mountain biking . The difference there was these provided sizeable performance improvements for most riders and Di2 seems to have a much narrower focus currently.

lawrences

madasahattersley wrote:

Personally I doubt I'll use electronic shifting because I ride my bike for the riding, not for the bike.

Please stop preaching.

jonny_trousers

There's a hell of a lot of reverse snobbery on this site at the moment. Sure, none of us need electronic shifting to improve performance, but if you can afford it and you enjoy it then what's the problem? It's the same with deep section carbon rims and even flipping energy gels, for goodness' sake!

Ps. Right now I can just about afford the energy gels, but that's it.

rolf_f

I'm sure electronic groupsets are very good - though my only experience of them is playing with an Athena fitted bike in a shop and finding the auto adjust a few moments after shifting on the front mech very irritating noise wise. But maybe you don't notice the electric motor noise on the road.

The problem is that I just can't stand gadgets. And a bicycle fitted with electronic shifting is a gadget. It's become a somehow more disposable item and therefore it just doesn't interest me.

In a way I think it is a bit like indexed shifting before STI shifters came along - an invention that wasn't actually needed yet. The only real 'gain' you get from electronic shifting is the capability of developing an automatic transmission system. At that point there is a purpose to electronic groupsets (albeit not one I'll be buying in to!).

Grill

madasahattersley wrote:

Careful Berni - you're not even allowed to state a preference for mechanical around here without the Di2 brigade telling you how wrong you are. It's like the new version of Apple users - "my expensive stuff is just SO much better than the stuff that costs half as much. Why doesn't everybody use the expensive stuff?"

Personally I doubt I'll use electronic shifting because I ride my bike for the riding, not for the bike.

Now that you're focusing on TT's you may just change your mind.

CiB

Rolf F wrote:

I'm sure electronic groupsets are very good - though my only experience of them is playing with an Athena fitted bike in a shop and finding the auto adjust a few moments after shifting on the front mech very irritating noise wise. But maybe you don't notice the electric motor noise on the road.

The problem is that I just can't stand gadgets. And a bicycle fitted with electronic shifting is a gadget. It's become a somehow more disposable item and therefore it just doesn't interest me.

In a way I think it is a bit like indexed shifting before STI shifters came along - an invention that wasn't actually needed yet. The only real 'gain' you get from electronic shifting is the capability of developing an automatic transmission system. At that point there is a purpose to electronic groupsets (albeit not one I'll be buying in to!).

Can't agree Rolf. The noise is actually quite neat and a nice confirmation that everything is working, and the only real gains are those that have already been listed - quick consistent changes that always just work regardless of how cold your fingers are, easy changes when stomping up a climb, auto-trim, indexing on the move even though there's no real need to once it's set, nice noise... You might have an aversion to gadgets but most of us love new things to play with that actually improve life. Di2, Garmin, CO2 inflators, Strava, colour tv, BBC2, sealed road surfaces, cars that start every day, portable devices that allow us to do a whole stack of things that our grandparents' generation could only have thought of as witch-craft. I know it's still 1973 in Yorkshire but it's possible to be too much of an old fuddy-duddy.

PS automatic gear changes? Can't think of anything worse. I want to be the one responsible for when my gentleman's vegetables area meets the crossbar, not a Japanese techie.

DavidJB

Jonny_Trousers wrote:

There's a hell of a lot of reverse snobbery on this site at the moment. Sure, none of us need electronic shifting to improve performance, but if you can afford it and you enjoy it then what's the problem? It's the same with deep section carbon rims and even flipping energy gels, for goodness' sake!

Ps. Right now I can just about afford the energy gels, but that's it.

I can afford it, doesn't mean I'd ride it.

mamba80

Grill wrote:

mamba80 wrote:

for many, being able to fix a bike is part of the joy of cycling, so if I trash a mechanical RD or even shifters, I can go to any LBS/Halfords on a Saturday night and buy something that will keep me riding ... not so with Di2
indexing does not need to be tinkered with constantly nor can it be described as a "battle"

This is complete rubbish for 2 reasons. The first is that combination of sites that offer next day shipping and the fact that catastrophic failures are incredibly rare makes this an incredibly unlikely scenario.

The second is that this is just as much an issue when it comes to mechanical groupsets (especially if you have Campag). On two occasions I've gone out looking for shimano chain pins (one 10 speed and one 11 speed) and not been able to find a shop with stock. This is in Bristol and included the Giant concept store, Cycle Surgery, and 2 other independent shops.

Tech for tech's sake is nothing new. Take a look at your car and tell me if you actually need AC or a radio to drive...

you may be arrogant enough to think its rubbish, fortunately, Campag and shimano invest millions into decent mechanical groupsets, as Rolf said, its a gadget - I ve ridden EPS and Di2, and as I said, if you read, front shifting is better and even that is narrowed by the brilliant 6800/9000 setup - I prefer to fix my own bikes and any comparison to a modern car is ridiculous, cycling is a hobby, a car is for most an essential means of transport, safety/green regs is mainly why the car has evolved to the state it is at now.

If your local LBSs don't even stock a shimano joining pin (which I find hard to believe), then you could have bought a quick link, which fits its self whilst you have a coffee

rolf_f

CiB wrote:

You might have an aversion to gadgets but most of us love new things to play with that actually improve life. Di2, Garmin, CO2 inflators, Strava, colour tv, BBC2, sealed road surfaces, cars that start every day, portable devices that allow us to do a whole stack of things that our grandparents' generation could only have thought of as witch-craft. I know it's still 1973 in Yorkshire but it's possible to be too much of an old fuddy-duddy.

PS automatic gear changes? Can't think of anything worse. I want to be the one responsible for when my gentleman's vegetables area meets the crossbar, not a Japanese techie.

Much of what you mention are not gadgets. CO2 serves no useful purpose, Strava is fine though could be infinitely better and hopefully will disappear when something better comes along and my 1985 Saab is probably more reliable than most modern cars (less plastic tat to go wrong see). GPS navigating has made a huge difference to me - once upon a time I had to stop at pretty much every junction to check my map!

I just don't like plastic disposable tat and that is what bikes are becoming. I do not dislike things that genuinely improve my life but things don't improve my life just because an advertising agency tells me they do. The problem is that people are undiscerning - they can't distinguish between the things that genuinely do make a difference and the ones that just make you repeatedly spend money to no actual benefit (have you bought the latest iphone - it's screen is 0.2mm larger than the old version which is now implicitly junk....). They want to spend money so they'll happily go along with any old crap that the advertising blurb tells them.

Auto transmission - you shouldn't end up impaled on your cross bar because everyone says that you can shift smoothly under power with Di2! And it is the logical extension of GPS and electronic transmission. If you have, say, a metre accurate digital elevation map based route stored in your Garmin, then there's no problem in a computer knowing better than you when you want to change gear. I expect you to change your mind on this once introduced. I won't however!

Naah, that trim motor makes a horrible, plasticky whirring noise. Are you actually grateful for the presence of house flies?

kingstonian

Last time I checked, CO2 can inflate a tyre. I find that a "useful purpose".

I have two bikes - one has Di2 and hydraulic disk brakes, the other is a 1978 Motobecane with the original Shimano 600 set-up, downtube shifters etc. I LOVE both bikes for the differentness I experience when riding them. I have just refurbished my old bike and decided to keep it as it was rather than upgrade the components because I wanted that originality - I wanted the look, the feel, having to feather gear changes myself, and so on. When I ride it I love every second because the bike has so many memories. But then I get on my new bike and I love what Di2 and the disk brakes provide, the utterly dependable smoothness of shifting, the immense stopping power etc.

Life is about choices. I chose shimano over campag - many go the other way. I chose Di2, but many go for mechanical. I chose hydraulic disks, many stick with rim brakes. My neighbour is awaiting payout on an insurance claim and will be buying a new bike with it - he was asking whether I'd recommend Di2 and/or disk brakes and rather than verbalise my recommendation I told him to borrow my bike on a few rides this week while I'm on holiday so he can make his own mind up. Will be interesting to see how he got on with them.