To Cleat or not to Cleat

jpower

I'm sure this has been discussed untold times on forums, so what's one more :-)

Wondering is the jobs of cleats to allow you to put more power into pedalling and thus overall faster times?

I used cleats for the first time for a long ride, and then normal shoes. The one thing I found is that I tend to change my foot position in normal shoes, so pushing with different parts, this obviously I cannot do with cleats as your position is fixed. Obviously feel safer in shoes as I an a newbie to cleats.

rickeverett

Moving your feet around during a ride can actually cause imbalances in your muscles. Imbalances can do things like over exercise certain muscles in the group, move the legs/knees in towards or away from the frame or cause knee and hip problems. Cleats when set up correctly will not only add more power to your ride (esp pulling up on climbs or sprints) but also set up your legs so you can use your leg muscles more efficiently.

Cleats can come with various degrees of float to allow some movement of the feet during a ride.

Your cleat position is relatively easy to set up - lots of guides on-line on how to do this, but needs to be done properly or else it can again cause knee and muscles issues.

jpower

Aha, Thanks that is very helpful.

Yes they have 15mm up/down and 5mm side to side movement for fitting.

I found 15mm down was better, side to side not played with as yet. I take it its not wise to leave it loose enough to be able to move them whilst riding?

imposter2.0

Clip-in pedals & cleats will not add 'more power to your ride', or make you go any faster. All they do is provide a secure link between your shoes and your pedals.

rickeverett

Imposter wrote:

Clip-in pedals & cleats will not add 'more power to your ride', or make you go any faster. All they do is provide a secure link between your shoes and your pedals.

They provide the capability to pull up as well as push down which helps on climbs and putting down the power. So yeah, they will help in that regard as well as provide a secure link.

rickeverett

jpower wrote:

Aha, Thanks that is very helpful.

Yes they have 15mm up/down and 5mm side to side movement for fitting.

I found 15mm down was better, side to side not played with as yet. I take it its not wise to leave it loose enough to be able to move them whilst riding?

no the cleats on your shoe should be very securely fastened. They shouldn't move whatsoever. Its always best getting them both the same too.

imposter2.0

rickeverett wrote:

Imposter wrote:

Clip-in pedals & cleats will not add 'more power to your ride', or make you go any faster. All they do is provide a secure link between your shoes and your pedals.

They provide the capability to pull up as well as push down which helps on climbs and putting down the power. So yeah, they will help in that regard as well as provide a secure link.

I think you are over-estimating the usefulness of 'pulling up' - how much more power do you think that provides? There are links to studies over in the training forum (where this has been discussed many times) which show that riding on flat pedals can produce just as much power as riding while clipped in, which kind of destroys the 'pulling up' argument. The only difference is the lack of a secure foot placement, that's all.

imposter2.0

There's a couple of links in this post below, lifted from a dicussion on a similar topic last year...

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

bernithebiker wrote:

And a dash of common sense; for example, have you ever tried riding your road bike with normal flat pedals (no clips)? I have and it feels totally weird, and terrible, like I'm missing 1/3 of my power. That tells me there is something in developing pedal technique, but exactly how much, I don't know.

Not as much as you might think.

I have seen MAP tests from riders on clip in and flat bed pedal with little difference in the outcome.

There is this study which reports no difference in GE between flat bed and using toe clips:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17852673

And this one which compared flat bed with clip in pedals (and clip in with force feeback info to riders could adjust their pedalling)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18418807
Outcomes reported:

Consequently, shoe-pedal interface (PED vs. CLIP) did not significantly influence cycling technique during submaximal exercise. However, an active pulling-up action on the pedal during upstroke increased the pedalling effectiveness, while reducing net mechanical efficiency

Note that the term pedalling effectiveness is not really a measure of effectiveness in the sense that it would suggest an improvement in actual performance, but the term defined by the researchers to measure the difference in upstroke torque. There has been nothing to suggest that actually makes a cyclist more effective.

jpower

Oh buggery, being honest to myself I went for cleats because I thought it would maximise performance, but they don't feel as safe as just shoes to me so if there no gain it begs the question, although continued usage may make me feel more comfortable I guess.

Dippydog2

I rode bikes with flat pedals for many many years.
Switched to Spd pedals a year ago.
After a year on SPD's I had a go again last week on a bike with flat pedals.
At certain points on the upstroke my feet came of the pedals. And I felt unable to apply power anywhere except the down stroke.

There is no doubt in my mind that you get used to lifting a little, scraping back a little at the bottom and pushing a little over the top. It's not huge amounts, but if matters.

I have not done a scientific test, but I would place my own money on at least a 15% increase in overall performance.

Your call if that matters.

Anonymous

jpower wrote:

Oh buggery, being honest to myself I went for cleats because I thought it would maximise performance, but they don't feel as safe as just shoes to me so if there no gain it begs the question, although continued usage may make me feel more comfortable I guess.

Please do not continue to use. Cut your loses now and sell them.
You gave it a go but it was not for you. No big deal. Well done for trying.

No point in continuing use to feel more comfortable if you feel even more comfortable in just shoes now is there.

Stick to normal shoes and lets not here anything more about it.
You know it makes sense

imposter2.0

Dippydog2 wrote:

I have not done a scientific test, but I would place my own money on at least a 15% increase in overall performance.

Well, people that have acutally done scientific tests found no such increase - see above. Still, it's your money....

imposter2.0

davidmt83 wrote:

Imposter wrote:

Dippydog2 wrote:

I have not done a scientific test, but I would place my own money on at least a 15% increase in overall performance.

Well, people that have acutally done scientific tests found no such increase - see above. Still, it's your money....

Assume you have flat pedals and trainers then?

You would only assume that if you hadn't read the thread properly...

rickeverett

I don't believe that as moving to cleats was noticeable for me. Esp using all the crank such as upstroke. Quick Climbing was improved due to using the up and down stroke.

DavidJB

Always lol at people who 'pull up' what utter nonsense.

styxd

I peddle hard gears for extra speed and also to build my strength and leg muscles. I swapped to cleats about a year ago and noticed a definite improvement since I don't just push down, I also pull up which seems to let me peddle one extra gear at the back. I also find it easier now to get into a good rhythm where I time my head and upper body rocking motion with my peddle strokes. Now in the top 20 on all my local Strava segments.

imposter2.0

styxd wrote:

I peddle hard gears for extra speed and also to build my strength and leg muscles. I swapped to cleats about a year ago and noticed a definite improvement since I don't just push down, I also pull up which seems to let me peddle one extra gear at the back. I also find it easier now to get into a good rhythm where I time my head and upper body rocking motion with my peddle strokes. Now in the top 20 on all my local Strava segments.

Is this a wind-up?

styxd

It looks like a popular technique at the moment.

Dippydog2

If you don't think there is any power apart from the down stroke then try pedalling with only one leg.

You will soon work out that you can go much faster with cleats. It's almost impossible without them.

The difference is the small amounts of power on the flat and upstroke part of the circle.

Even ignoring the power thing there are other advantages to cleats like security of footing, proper positioning of the foot and the ability to change the muscles you are using thereby spreading the load.

imposter2.0

Dippydog2 wrote:

If you don't think there is any power apart from the down stroke then try pedalling with only one leg.

The trouble is that pedalling with one leg promotes an entirely different pedalling style than pedalling with both legs, as the other leg will not be providing a counterbalance/counterweight. So it won't actually tell you anything useful..

CiB

See http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/active/r ... a-pro.html

"...pulling up on the pedal does not increase maximal power output, and in fact it can cause injury. Pulling the pedal up puts a lot of pressure on the hamstrings and the hip flexors. These muscles are designed to lift the weight of the leg against gravity whilst running or walking and struggle to cope with the demand of contracting repeatedly against the resistance of the pedal. As the muscle fatigues, this increases tightness, which can contribute to lower back and hip pain. In addition to this, at recommended cadences of 80-90rpm, the muscular system cannot contract and relax quick enough to deactivate one group of muscles and contract another."

Use cleats to keep your foot, leg & knee in the right place, to allow the pedal stroke to start at the 12 o'clock position and continue round to 6, and to stop feet slipping off the pedal when you least want it to happen - i.e. always.

chris_bass

I remember mark cavendish said that you should push down and then pull back (not up) like you are trying to wipe something off the bottom of your shoe! whether this increases power or not is another thing

jpower

Ok being a newbie I'm not sure where the jokes stop and the truth lies.

For now I will try using the cleats a few more times and see if I feel anymore comfortable with them, I'd say if I get to a point where I can dismount, or restart on a climb with ease then I don't mind continuing to use them, guess time will tell.

chris_bass

jpower wrote:

Ok being a newbie I'm not sure where the jokes stop and the truth lies.

For now I will try using the cleats a few more times and see if I feel anymore comfortable with them, I'd say if I get to a point where I can dismount, or restart on a climb with ease then I don't mind continuing to use them, guess time will tell.

thats the best idea, just see if you get on with them!

one thing is for sure when its wet they are great, no slipping of the pedal and ending up with it smashing you in the shin :-)

Miles253

The best part of cleats for me is the knowledge that my feet are staying put, regardless of bumpy road surface, wet weather or clumsiness. A slipped pedal when out the saddle can be disastrous, which is easy to do in the wet. I think as apposed to more power you develop a more efficient pedal stroke as you use the whole stroke which engages different muscles.

jpower

Good news I found something that works for me. So went back to the dealer today, told him I didn't want the insoles I had on order as I doubted I would continue to use cleats. He asked why wouldn't you? Told him used them for a few days, no falls, can mount and dismount them fine, even had an emergency stop on route which I managed, but I told him I just don't like being connected and I don't feel safe, always overthinking whats up ahead.

He saw the pedals on my bike and said why did you go for the road ones? Told him was after a long discussion with his colleague, he said we discussed this before and he had said go for Shimano A530 and the MTB shoe, reason being with that setup I had the option on road to use normal pedal, or flip and cleat in, and the MTB shoe allowed the use of both as the cleat is recessed. AHA now that would be ideal because I don't like to be out on the road without the option and this provides me the option whilst I get over my safety issues too.

Small problem I have used the shoes and the pedals, don't worry sir we can hook you up and swap you over, now I was really impressed with that as I was fearing I had just wasted alot of money, so 20 mins later back on the road and feeling much better, as not I have both options, albeit the pedal and MTB shoe is not grippy as my shoes would be on flat side, but this buys me the time I need to choose what suits me.

Feeling much happier today, would recommend this route to any newbie wanting to try.

Wigster

I'm sure if there was no reason to use cleats then the 100% usage rate on pros in the Tour De France wouldn't exist?

imposter2.0

Wigster wrote:

I'm sure if there was no reason to use cleats then the 100% usage rate on pros in the Tour De France wouldn't exist?

There are good reasons to use clip-in pedals, as you rightly point out. They've all been discussed in this thread...

Anonymous

Imposter wrote:

Clip-in pedals & cleats will not add 'more power to your ride', or make you go any faster. All they do is provide a secure link between your shoes and your pedals.

And you do not think a secure link equates to a faster ride in any way then?

Seems to me that having your foot securely in the right place equals a better and therefore faster ride.
Even if it did not (which it does) I would still use them if only because it feels better.

All this talk of upstroke just plays into the hands of cleat haters/ragers.
There are plenty of reasons they are better without going on about that.

Don't even talk to me about clips lol. They are just an old fashioned version of cleats as far as I am concerned.
So if people don't want to use cleats, just don't. Use those great cheapo flat pedals or vintage clips and straps and enjoy your riding as much as I enjoy mine.

I wish the OP would just give up on cleats but I bet he will be back in road shoes before long.
Cash will probably be the thing that stops him getting there sooner rather than later/at all.

imposter2.0

Carbonator wrote:

Imposter wrote:

Clip-in pedals & cleats will not add 'more power to your ride', or make you go any faster. All they do is provide a secure link between your shoes and your pedals.

And you do not think a secure link equates to a faster ride in any way then?

The studies that have been conducted thus far (there are some links earlier in the thread) suggest there is no particular correlation between being clipped in and being able to push out more power. Obviously if your feet keep slipping off the pedals while you are riding, then you will probably not get round your chosen route as quickly as if you had been clipped in. In other words, the 'upstroke' thing is almost certainly a load of old tosh. Meanwhile, there are lots of good reasons to ride clipped-in, as I keep repeating...

Anonymous

Studies! Is that what you base you rides/kit/life on then?

Are these the same studies that say a heavy aluminium bike with Claris and crap wheels is as fast as a carbon one weighing half as much with DA and decent ones?