Petrified of fast descents...

2

Comments

  • markhewitt1978
    markhewitt1978 Posts: 7,614
    Crescent wrote:
    You have to treat each one individually, I think. I have touched 45-50mph in Mallorca and felt perfectly safe due to the beautifully smooth surface. I have felt insecure at 20mph on some descents in the UK due to rough surface, gravel etc. Descending Wrynose Pass a coupe of weeks ago I had a few hairy moments just because of the ridiculous gradient. I think everyone has a "what if...." mechanism that throws the occasional doubt into the mix : what if my tyre bursts, what if the lugs break, what if my stem isn't tightened correctly (my personal favourite :shock:). A healthy awareness of self preservation is a good thing in my book.

    Same; I've done 50mph down a long straight wide road with the wind at my back, I felt no more in danger than doing 20mph. Same with Mallorca, the descent from the Puig Major, nice road surface, completely fine.

    It's the extra steep stuff that's the issue, in driving they say you should be able to stop in the distance you can see to be clear, and it's the same with cycling, with very steep gradients braking is such that it's very difficult to stop at all, and if I can't just stop whenever I want that's when I start to get scared of the situation.

    Shame really, I suck at climbing, I'm a nervous descender, and I'm quite average on the flat :mrgreen:
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,317
    If you are scared of going down steep dangerous roads, that's OK... most of us are scared of going down Hardknott or similar... if you are scared of going down a well paved, wide, alpine type 6-8% descent, then maybe this type of cycling is not for you.

    You can try wider tyres, but if you are scared even with a MTBike on the road, ultimately you should find another sport...
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  • neilo23
    neilo23 Posts: 783
    I used to be fearless as a youth. I remember going down a long hill at 80kmh behind a caravan. Then a friend of mine had a bad accident (fell off a multi-storey carpark breaking most of the bones in his body on the scaffolding which slowed his fall). I used to think about this in bed at night and after that I completely lost my bottle going down hills. Even the pros get it sometimes. Gianni Bugno had therapy involving classical music being played backwards to try and lose the fear (although he's a helicopter pilot now, which seems strange).
    In theory I'm a good descender (as in my bike handling is good, know how to turn etc) but this fear seems to be getting worse, not better, with age. I have even been known to stop on a descent even if I'm not going much faster than I would be on the flat. Funny thing is I love going up the hills but I am scared of heights. I think that fear of descending is connected to vertigo.
  • Omar Little
    Omar Little Posts: 2,010
    A big part of the problem will be thinking and worrying about it too much. That will tense you up take some of the natural 'suspension' away from your arms, make you hold the bars too tight and then you'll over correct steering, brake too harshly and so on. You'll also have a negative frame of mind and probably be looking at where you dont want to go rather than where you want to be going...all of this makes descending more difficult than needs be.

    I realise saying relax more is easier said than done.
  • homers_double
    homers_double Posts: 8,295
    This is a fast segment close to where I live, and I'm sat way down in 213th place doing a measly 59.3kmh. The KOM is 76.3kmh and god knows how they felt going down at that speed because I certainly had reached my maximum, I don't know, maybe they had bigger gears or legs for the flat part at the end.

    http://app.strava.com/activities/156115 ... 3605172832

    Even on the hilly bit:-

    http://app.strava.com/activities/156115 ... 3605172809

    My snail like 62.1kmh is way off the fastest of 76.5kmh and I thought I was pushing it!
    Advocate of disc brakes.
  • adr82
    adr82 Posts: 4,002
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    If you are scared of going down steep dangerous roads, that's OK... most of us are scared of going down Hardknott or similar... if you are scared of going down a well paved, wide, alpine type 6-8% descent, then maybe this type of cycling is not for you.
    Conspicuous shortage of such well paved, wide descents to practice on in the UK, unfortunately. The Crow Road near Glasgow isn't bad though (the south side at least, the north side is a mess).

    The potential for hitting a patch of bad surface is actually what worries me most on descents given the general state of the roads in this country. If I've ridden up and down the hill enough to know where the bad bits are that's fine, I can take lines to avoid them, but if I don't know a descent there's no way I'm trusting that it'll be smooth enough to take at high speed. Even if you don't come off it could easily cost you a wheel. Not worth it, especially if all you care about is bragging rights on Strava.
    homers double wrote:
    The KOM is 76.3kmh and god knows how they felt going down at that speed because I certainly had reached my maximum, I don't know, maybe they had bigger gears or legs for the flat part at the end.
    If a hill is long/steep/fast enough for you to run out of gears then you're often better off trying to get into as much of an aero tuck as you dare and stop trying to pedal, you'll go faster even if you're not doing the whole sitting on the toptube thing you see the pros doing.
  • slowbike
    slowbike Posts: 8,498
    adr82 wrote:
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    If you are scared of going down steep dangerous roads, that's OK... most of us are scared of going down Hardknott or similar... if you are scared of going down a well paved, wide, alpine type 6-8% descent, then maybe this type of cycling is not for you.
    Conspicuous shortage of such well paved, wide descents to practice on in the UK, unfortunately. The Crow Road near Glasgow isn't bad though (the south side at least, the north side is a mess).

    The potential for hitting a patch of bad surface is actually what worries me most on descents given the general state of the roads in this country. If I've ridden up and down the hill enough to know where the bad bits are that's fine, I can take lines to avoid them, but if I don't know a descent there's no way I'm trusting that it'll be smooth enough to take at high speed. Even if you don't come off it could easily cost you a wheel. Not worth it, especially if all you care about is bragging rights on Strava.

    IMHO - you can ignore the drivel from UGO - it's that sort of attitude that puts people off - "if you're rubbish at something then give up" ... yer right - not everyone has to be a fast descender to enjoy cycling - not everyone has to ride at near pro speeds to enjoy cycling - some people can just enjoy cycling.

    For the OP - narrow twisty descents on open roads = go slow.
    Never go so fast that you cannot stop in the road that you can see - you have no idea what is around the corner - it could be a patch of gravel, cyclist with a puncture, car, tractor, herd of sheep or cows. Dappled light doesn't help because it hides patches of gravel, so you need to take care.
    That said, you sound like you could do with being a little more confident and the only way to achieve that is to practice.

    I've tried a twisty descent a few times recently - first time I was heavy on the front brake - wow, big mistake, unbalanced the bike and I couldn't turn into the corner till I released the pressure. Second and third time (third was a TT) I tried putting more pressure on the back so I didn't build speed too quickly and using the front to scrub off speed on the short straight bits - far more under control. Oh, I did these all from the drops and putting my arse as far back on the saddle as I could - further back would've been helpful!
  • Miles253
    Miles253 Posts: 535
    Jonny_Trousers wrote:
    It's probably a useful survival instinct to have. I absolutely love descending at speed, but there have been plenty of occasions when I've got to the bottom and thought, wtf am I doing. For me it's like a fairground ride or a computer game. In the moment it's rather abstract. I guess my first downhill off will bring me down to earth, literally.

    I'm no expert, but two skills I've found useful: being able to bunny-hop - means you no longer fear last second pothole spots - and the old forcing your weight into the outside pedal in bends thing.

    There are also coaching sessions you can do. Cadence here in Crystal Palace regularly run climbing and descending days with their resident pro.

    I saw those sessions advertised, shame i dont live in the area anymore.

    I feel fine, ish on open, smooth surfaced, alpine like decents. but as soon as you get to a gravelly , pot holed mess of a UK road, and i'm grabbing the brakes like mad. Just dont trust them to slow me down enough before corners, so i dont have to brake in the corner. Ive heard a couple of times that motorbike skills transfer well to cycling, from a couple of friends of mine.
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  • ManOfKent
    ManOfKent Posts: 392
    I was out-descended by my 11-year-old son at the weekend. :) We were on MTBs on a gravel track and I don't like loose surfaces, even chip-dressed roads. He's also never fallen off so doesn't have that mental flinch about what might happen. So he went hammering down the hill and I took it a little more steadily. I had to be in one piece to drive us home!

    On the North Downs I quite regularly go beyond 40mph but there are plenty of other descents where I'll be on the brakes most of the way down, because of bad surface, poor sightlines, gravel or I simply don't know the road particularly well. Most of the steep hills here have either sharp bends or T-junctions at the bottom as well, for added excitement. On long descents in Italy my top speed was lower than here, because of braking for hairpins and not trusting the surfaces. Give me a long straight one where I can see hazards well ahead and I'll go as fast as my legs will allow.

    I think it's absolutely normal to be afraid of high speed on the bike. We are extremely vulnerable if anything goes wrong. How easily you can ignore the fear depends partly on your view of the risk - likelihood and consequences - and partly on whether you can put the fear into a box, like F1 drivers have to. There's no shame in having it to the forefront of your mind. Self-preservation has many merits.
  • darkhairedlord
    darkhairedlord Posts: 7,180
    My brother always disappears in the distance on the steep down hill stretches. That's up to him, but If I can't see what debris is on the surface as I approach the corner then that's no good for me. Lets face it, most of the steep bits are on the less used un-classified roads with poor surfaces and blind corners with adverse cambers, rather not have to shut my eyes and prey if it all goes wrong thank you!
  • Mikey23
    Mikey23 Posts: 5,306
    I am reassured by the comments i am receiving.. It seems that i am by no means alone and not the only one in the world who is a wuss. I am happy to bomb down main road descents where i can see where i am going, i am confident in the road surface and my ability to stop if necessary. Unfortunately most of the sportives round here in devon and cornwall seem to take you on a scenic roller coaster of narrow country lanes with hair raising descents and challenging climbs to follow. The dartmoor classic is no exception to this but does exactly what it says on the tin and does it very well which is why it sells out in hours. Which is the nature if the countryside i choose to live in. What i need to do is work on my weaknesses and be better prepared to have a good go at it next year!!
  • supermurph09
    supermurph09 Posts: 2,471
    At the end of the day there is no prize at the bottom waiting for you, there could however be a herd of cows / HGV / cat / gravel waiting to take you off.
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  • comsense
    comsense Posts: 245
    I was a complete mess of nerves when descending and managed to change ( in my middle age .... )
    All the advice in the world did not help me because the people offering the advice did not understand what it was that I was experiencing and what the causes were.

    Heres what I did:

    1. What is it specifically, that causes you concern ? ( in order to deal with fear , you need to identify it)

    Is it really the speed? ( Do you feel nervous on the flat or slight descents at the same speeds? if you are on a gentle descent with a nice tailwind can you relax ?)

    2. At the moment you feel panicky do you sit up and/or move back on saddle?
    Do you cease pedalling? Lock your arms straight and grip the bars? Any one of these actions can significantly affect bike stability. Most nervous riders do all these things instinctively and thus set off a chain of events that lead to loss of control.
    3. Find a road that is open, safe and not a "real" descent where you can pedal up to about 40 -45 kph .Get used to pedalling at this speed and relax. You should not be at all stressed at this - if you are ,find a better stretch or reduce the speed until you are comfortable. Every chance you get, get up to these types of speeds and get comfortable on your bike.

    4.Read a few articles online about descending.
    Not glance at them - really read them. Next thing to do is go on youtube and watch some videos.


    Make notes of key points. - this is important!

    5. Now find a VERY QUIET and VERY GENTLE descent with GENTLE bends. Look at your notes before you ride. Take a SPECIFIC point - for instance doing braking before cornering, your line through the bend ,standing on the outside pedal as you corner or lowering your centre of gravity. Practise this specific point. Really address this point by exaggerating it as you descend. Finish the session when you are confident you have mastered that specific point.Any rides you do after this session, practise and exaggerate each point as much as you can. Ride solo as often as possible while doing this so you can really concentrate.

    5. As you progress through the list of points you will become more confident and quicker.

    Now judge a point on your "easy" descent from which you are confident you can ride to the bottom without braking. Ride down while concentrating on your lines through bends, keeping your C.O.G low, elbows relaxed, loose and safe hold on bars etc. At this point you should be 100% confident - after all , it is an easy descent and you are only doing it from where you feel comfortable. Next time on the same descent , start your no brake descent further back up the hill and each time you do it go higher until you can descend confidently and competently from the top. As you progress to more difficult descending a strange thing happens. Concentration on perfecting your new skills will take over from your fear. Where previously, you may have imagined crashing your mind will now be completely concentrating on lines, braking and technique - there won't be any time for negative thoughts.When this happens I guarantee you become quicker. Now the vicious circle goes into reverse.Confidence breeds ability breeds skill breeds speed breeds more confidence ...
  • junglist_matty
    junglist_matty Posts: 1,731
    I love descending, it's pretty much the main thing that keeps me going when grinding my way up a long climb.

    My favourite descent was a 15 mile mountain road in Spain, it took me 1hr 50mins to ascend and 31minutes to descend. I loved every second of the descent, and that was me being very cautious having never been on the road before, making sure I stayed safe (well on my side of the road) round the many sharp blind bends.

    I just love the feeling of going fast down the hills, spinning out the top gear doesn't happen very often but when it does you need to concentrate 100% and leave any fears behind you!
  • FatTed
    FatTed Posts: 1,205
    Read this
    http://www.flammerouge.je/factsheets/doidescend.htm
  • aberdeenal
    aberdeenal Posts: 200
    I'm very like the OP on descents - I hate them - probably stems from descending Cairn o Mount (in Aberdeenshire) and at 38 - 40mph I got a speed wobble and had no idea what to do. I instinctively knew braking wouldn't have helped so I continued hurtling down the road with tears squirting out my eyes (not ashamed to say that either!) and a wobbly bike.

    Since then the thought of coming back down the CoM makes me feel ill (plus sleepless night) and I've cancelled a few runs because I knew that's where we were going.

    Love my bike - love cycling - love going uphill - hate descending but reading this has made me feel better.
  • fat_cat
    fat_cat Posts: 566
    Mikey a week ago I would have thought HTFU.

    However having ridden the same Dartmoor roads myself last week, I can assure you I felt exactly the same as you. For me it isn't the speed alone, I'm comfortable at 40 mph plus on wide roads with a good surface if I know the road. The issue is when it's very steep (15% plus) on narrow twisty roads, that are open to traffic.

    I would rather be called a wimp (I've been called far worse) and still be in one piece, than try and be a hero and end up in hospital. But I guess that's what age dies for you. 20 years ago I would have probably thought differently.
  • lawrences
    lawrences Posts: 1,011
    Devastazione wrote:
    Mikey23 wrote:
    Does anyone else experience this and if so what did you do to deal with it? It seems that most people are quite happy to whizz down this type of terrain at 40 mph while barely touching the brakes and seem to get a terrific buzz out of this.

    I do,but that does not stop me to ask myself " whattahell did I just do ? I could have killed myself" once I've reached the bottom. There is not much you can do about it,its either you have it or you don't have it. The more I'm squeezing my 2 years old bike's limits tho the more I'm realizing is not even a bike built with that kind or riding in mind,so I do still speed a lot but I keep my fingers on the brakes now. FYI bike is a dreadful Specialized Roubaix. Have it reach 40/45 mph and consider front stability end lost for good. On sharp fast turns things get even more funny...
    I've even have a friend of mine, a racer both on bike and supermotard motorbike telling me " yeah it's cool to reach 50 mph on a bike but don't forget you're actually naked,your not wearing any motorbike like protections"
    My suggestion for when your start to freak out ? Tell yourself " who cares..."..and keep going... :mrgreen: You have to perfectly know your bike and your brakes tho,that is quite important... :wink:


    Why are all of your posts about how bad your bike is? maybe it's you?
  • robbo2011
    robbo2011 Posts: 1,017
    I am a reasonable descender (even if I say so myself) and often reach pretty high speeds on mountain descents here in CH both on the straights and around corners.

    However, this is on good roads. If I was descending on pothole ridden narrow roads in the UK, I would probably be keeping my speed very low as it is really not very safe to go fast. So the OP is probably just being sensible, as I would be.
  • stueys
    stueys Posts: 1,332
    Only thing I would add to the thread is it's worth looking at your bike geo. I'm in the process of swapping my existing bike out as I find it a twitchy descender (short wheelbase, steepish head tube angle), been test riding a cervelo this weekend and it's a completely different world going down. Difficult to explain exactly the difference but the bike is far less reactive to changing road surfaces and just more stable all round when the speed picks up, it inspires a lot more confidence than my existing bike. A lot of it is no doubt in the mind but I've been genuinely surprised at the difference between the two bikes.
  • debeli
    debeli Posts: 583
    I have great sympathy for the OP on this one.

    I am slightly on the fence in that I am happy (usually) to let rip and howl down hills that are known to me, but I am INCREDIBLY cautious on roads I don't know.

    I'm no sort of Cadel Evans, and have not exceeded 46mph since fitting a computer some years ago. There are hills where I expect to break 42-43mph (beyond which my gearing runs out) and some where I want to be nudging 45.

    However, on those very same hills I can be turned to a wobbly wreck by too much side wind, too much traffic (sometimes only a few cars), a wet surface or 'funny' light - like a low sun, poor visibility or something.

    When I get scared or cautious, I get REALLY scared and can imagine myself flying headlong onto the tarmac. Other days, I'm spinning the pedals off on the same descent trying to crack the elusive 50mph barrier.

    If something scares you or makes you feel uncomfortable, you would do well to take it easy.
  • davidof
    davidof Posts: 3,124
    I recorded this little video on a local training hill

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ko1Bw79WV3g

    it is quite a fast descent. Things like traffic, road surfaces etc can stop you taking the fastest line on open roads. The advantage of this road is at least there is an armco, I slide off once on a corner at speed and was saved by the wall.

    For corners I think the best line is not a perfect ellipse around the apex but to turn late taking the corner tight then taking the smoothest line out of the turn; you see the pros tend to do the same. You bleed a bit more speed but gain accellerating out of the corner.

    The other day I descended the Iseran on the Modane side, the road done to Bonneval has no wall or armco and is pretty rough. If anyone knows it there is a flattish spot just above the last hairpins into Bonneval, you have a steep 10% grade with a sharp right, if you don't make the turn it is a 400 meter drop into the village below with no retaining wall. Not somewhere to go on the limit although I bet the pros do.
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  • ai_1
    ai_1 Posts: 3,060
    I think you're better off being nervous than reckless although I'm sure there's a good middle ground. I'm used to being average at best compared to most of the speeds and other feats people occassionally report on threads but now I'm wondering if my niggling doubts from time to time that perhaps I should be more cautious on descents, are worth heeding. I regularly hit 70km/h on descents and have reached 85km/h a couple of times. I take it easy on less familiar roads, through corners or where the surface is uncertain but I love some speed and it's hard to resist. There's s broad spectrum of risk tolerances. I'm relatively cautious in most things. Speed on the bike seems to be an exception for me, but wanting to descend with less risk is certainly not something to be ashamed of and may not be something it's wise to push past unless you really feel you're being ridiculously over cautious.
  • Mikey23
    Mikey23 Posts: 5,306
    @stueys... interesting re bike, my roubaix is short base and steepish head tube angle. could be a factor. and i have experienced the dreaded speed wobble on it and screeching brakes when i slowed
  • dave in swansea
    dave in swansea Posts: 129
    Also nervous (scared) on steep descents.
    I am fine at 35-40 mph on hills where if you sit up, then you start to slow. However on steeper hills which feel that the bike is running away, then I was nervous. Much better now with a new bike, disc brakes and stable, traditional geometry. Maybe letting speed pick up to 25mph before pulling on brakes to slow to 15. Used to ride the brakes all time to descend at 10mph. Confidence in the machine, to maintain a safe speed allows that speed to be higher.
  • opus25
    opus25 Posts: 36
    Confidence in the bike is a big thing! I don't mind descents but my Moser would start to get a bit rattly above 40mph. Don't have the same problem on the F3 but I still don't go crazy - self-preservation from age and having kids, I think.

    Although having personally topped out at about 45mph as there's no real steep descents where I am, if felt fast enough and the bike was planted so didn't feel dangerous.

    Then I saw Dowsett's new record the other day: http://www.strava.com/activities/153908829

    Crazy fast, crazy good and just plain crazy.
    Felt F3 Di2 (2013) : Moser Speed Sora (2012) : Cruising the roads of China
  • vorsprung
    vorsprung Posts: 1,953
    Mikey23 wrote:
    @stueys... interesting re bike, my roubaix is short base and steepish head tube angle. could be a factor. and i have experienced the dreaded speed wobble on it and screeching brakes when i slowed

    Mikey you must have a different type of Specialized Roubaix to me. Mine has a 72.5 head tube angle and handles like a touring bike. It's very stable downhill in a straight line. It could be better at cornering but I don't race so I don't care :)

    Agree with a lot of the comments like stick to what you are comfortable with, learn the techniques etc

    I am not a super speed person, I've had crashes on descents including a collar bone buster. I usually ride in Wales or the SW of the UK so any descent is marred by traffic, potholes, poor surfacing, odd cambers, sheep in the road and mud

    One thing no one has mentioned is that often it is safer to not brake. So paradoxically under certain not uncommon circumstances going faster feels safer
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  • apreading
    apreading Posts: 4,535
    I have the same problem - did a tour in Tuscany for a week last month and I was the fastest up the hills, overtaking everyone and finding it easy, but the slowest down the hills, being overtaken by everyone and scared silly - especially with the tight hairpin bends that you cant see around... Actually found myself longing for the uphills...!
  • ai_1
    ai_1 Posts: 3,060
    vorsprung wrote:
    Mikey23 wrote:
    @stueys... interesting re bike, my roubaix is short base and steepish head tube angle. could be a factor. and i have experienced the dreaded speed wobble on it and screeching brakes when i slowed

    Mikey you must have a different type of Specialized Roubaix to me. Mine has a 72.5 head tube angle and handles like a touring bike. It's very stable downhill in a straight line. It could be better at cornering but I don't race so I don't care :)

    Agree with a lot of the comments like stick to what you are comfortable with, learn the techniques etc

    I am not a super speed person, I've had crashes on descents including a collar bone buster. I usually ride in Wales or the SW of the UK so any descent is marred by traffic, potholes, poor surfacing, odd cambers, sheep in the road and mud

    One thing no one has mentioned is that often it is safer to not brake. So paradoxically under certain not uncommon circumstances going faster feels safer
    I presume you mean braking when there's debris on the road or in a corner?
    It's not that faster is safer but grip is better than a skid.
  • stueys
    stueys Posts: 1,332
    Mikey23 wrote:
    @stueys... interesting re bike, my roubaix is short base and steepish head tube angle. could be a factor. and i have experienced the dreaded speed wobble on it and screeching brakes when i slowed

    See if you can borrow another bike for a spin, but make it a proper ride so you can get used to the bikes. I ride a Canyon ultimate cf slx and have been trying a cervelo r5, both are stiff bikes and climb well. The cervelo is soooo much more stable coming down, the difference is marked. I rode the same hill in quick succession on both bikes this pm, identical conditions, and the average speed on cervelo was 5mph higher and I was a lot happier.

    The difference is a slightly longer wheelbase and relaxed head tube angle on the cervelo. But i suspect the carbon layup also plays a part as overall the bike is a lot less 'noisy' if that makes sense. It's far less reactive to changes in road surface, body positioning, etc. Experiment.

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