Wheel Spec help

ribbo

Just in the process of buying a new set of wheels and I've been told that what i wanted is sold out. As an alternative I have been offered:

· Novatec Road Superlight hubset
· Sapim Laser Spokes
· Sapim Alunipples
· Criterium Classic rims

Now sadly I am pretty clueless when it comes to wheel components so I was hoping someone would be able to shed some light on what sort of wheels I would end up with with these parts?

Also, as a very long shot, I can't find a picture of the rims and I would quite like to know what they look like. Vanity is creeping in slightly here.

Any help is appreciated!

drlodge

Speak to someone who knows what they're talking about:
- laser spokes are OK for front wheels, but too weak for the rear (some builders will build a rear with laser or laser on NDS, but those that I trust will not).
- aluminium nipples are the devil's work, they will oxidise to the spokes and render the wheel junk if you ever need to adjust/change a spoke.

These sound like a very light pair of wheels, so will not be strong and not suitable for some purposes. What was your brief when asking about the wheels you wanted? What do you want the wheels for?

ribbo

Thanks very much for your help.

Would asking for different rear spokes and nipples (brass? not sure on this) be wise then?

Yes, the aim was a light/affordable set of wheels. Usage wise I wanted a nice light set to put on for the summer, I am 65kgs so not a heavy rider. I am aware of picking one of the three out of light/affordable/durable so I don't expect them to be bombproof. Also the price is at the point where they are pretty much disposable if they do decide to give in after a year or so.


Also any comments on the hubs and rims would be welcome.

Spudboy

drlodge wrote:

Speak to someone who knows what they're talking about:

Sound advice.

drlodge wrote:

- laser spokes are OK for front wheels, but too weak for the rear

So all rear wheels built with lasers (and therefore also CX-Ray) are too weak regardless of rider weight, the type of rim and spoke count? Hmm.

Ribbo - Seriously, go talk to an experienced wheel builder. There are a few around on this forum should you wish e.g Cycle Clinic (amongst others) and whom will provide you with excellent advice based on the relevant variables.

DiscoBoy

What is your budget?

ribbo

Seriously, go talk to an experienced wheel builder.

Thank you very much for your reply - I will do, thought I would give here a go aswell though.

What is your budget?

Low sadly. The price quoted for the first set was £230.

drlodge

H Plus Son archetype rims - £100-£110
spokes and build - £85

That's around £200 + whatever the novatec hubs costs. That will get you a very nice set of hand built wheels that are light (enough) cheap (enough) and strong.

drlodge

Info on Novatec hubs, and to someone who could build them... http://paolocoppo.drupalgardens.com/con ... s-remember

ribbo

H Plus Son archetype rims - £100-£110
spokes and build - £85

That's around £200 + whatever the novatec hubs costs. That will get you a very nice set of hand built wheels that are light (enough) cheap (enough) and strong.

Thanks very much, I had it in my head that they would cost more.

Info on Novatec hubs, and to someone who could build them... http://paolocoppo.drupalgardens.com/con ... s-remember

The hubs don't sound like they will last particularly long then.

Anyone know anything bad about the rims so it can be 4/4 components with failings!?

drlodge

The hubs will be fine. Sealed bearings don't last forever but are cheap and simple to replace.

ribbo

The hubs will be fine. Sealed bearings don't last forever but are cheap and simple to replace.

Okay, that's good to hear. Thank you very much.

The rims are these:

http://superlight-bikeparts.de/Criteriu ... incher-rim

I will find someone who knows what they are talking about at the weekend but for now has anyone got any comments on them?

ugo.santalucia

It seems like a bog standard rim with no particular merit. I don't think it's worth considering any rim narrower than 23 mm, not anymore. Everybody who has 23 mm or wider rims will tell you they are better, follow the tide, it's worth it.

Archetype, A 23 or Pacenti SL 23 is what you want

ribbo

It seems like a bog standard rim with no particular merit. I don't think it's worth considering any rim narrower than 23 mm, not anymore. Everybody who has 23 mm or wider rims will tell you they are better, follow the tide, it's worth it.

Archetype, A 23 or Pacenti SL 23 is what you want]

Okay, thanks very much for your advice.

cycleclinic

This is one trend that is of benefit to all riders. Laser spokes can be used with stiff rims on the rear. Drlodges comment come from the day when the Mavic open Pro was the best rim out there or maybe the Ambrosio Excellight with those rims then laser spokes are not stiff enough for a reliable wheel for most riders. Howver rims have moved on and for many riders now a Laser or it aero equivelent the CX-ray will do just fine. I can assure you a 28 spoke wheel built with lasers and the archetype or pacenti rim is so stiff there is no chance of the NDS spokes going slack and that is what kills spokes. drlodge rides narrow ambrosio rims and thats what he likes. However heavier riders can still benefit from a stiffer spoke. Peronally I don't like the A23 rim much anymore the archetype is a similar price and is much better made. The pacenti is good and if you have the coin the HED Belgian + rim is sublime.

letap73

thecycleclinic wrote:

This is one trend that is of benefit to all riders. Laser spokes can be used with stiff rims on the rear. Drlodges comment come from the day when the Mavic open Pro was the best rim out there or maybe the Ambrosio Excellight with those rims then laser spokes are not stiff enough for a reliable wheel for most riders. Howver rims have moved on and for many riders now a Laser or it aero equivelent the CX-ray will do just fine. I can assure you a 28 spoke wheel built with lasers and the archetype or pacenti rim is so stiff there is no chance of the NDS spokes going slack and that is what kills spokes. drlodge rides narrow ambrosio rims and thats what he likes. However heavier riders can still benefit from a stiffer spoke. Peronally I don't like the A23 rim much anymore the archetype is a similar price and is much better made. The pacenti is good and if you have the coin the HED Belgian + rim is sublime.

The HED Belguim + (and Ardennes+) rims are least twice the price of the Archetype - so what makes the HEDs better?
Assuming spoke cost is the same, which is the better combination:

1. Expensive rims (HED Belguim +) cheaper hubs (Miche).
2. Cheaper rims (Archetypes) expensive hubs (DA9000)).

MisterMuncher

Rims wear out even with the best care in the world. Hubs last a much longer period of time if properly looked after. I'd pick the hub first, you can always go up a notch when it's time to replace the rims.

ugo.santalucia

letap73 wrote:

The HED Belguim + (and Ardennes+) rims are least twice the price of the Archetype - so what makes the HEDs better?
Assuming spoke cost is the same, which is the better combination:

I'll tell you when I ride them. I have a set of Belgium plus disc that I have to build for my pleasure once I get back from holiday.
I would not bother with the older 23 mm ones, as they are 99% identical to an archetype, the + are wider and tubeless ready... what it means on the road I can't tell you yet

P.S. they cost nearly 3 times an Archetype, rather than 2

ugo.santalucia

MisterMuncher wrote:

Rims wear out even with the best care in the world. Hubs last a much longer period of time if properly looked after. I'd pick the hub first, you can always go up a notch when it's time to replace the rims.

As a rule of thumb it's true, but hubs like Novatec or Miche come with plenty of spares and are easy to work with, which make them last as long if not longer than Shimano hubs, in the right hands

cycleclinic

The only reason to go for the HED rims is the belgian + is very wide oh and it look so good. Otherwise the Archetype will do the just very well.

If you are riding in all weathers then the Miche hubs do the job very well. Would you want to ride more expensive DA hubs through winter doing 200 miles a week. I wouldn't that why Miche hubs exist. Also the HED rim being so expensive is probably best left for drier weather to avoid rim wear.

drlodge

thecycleclinic wrote:

Laser spokes can be used with stiff rims on the rear. Drlodges comment come from the day when the Mavic open Pro was the best rim out there or maybe the Ambrosio Excellight with those rims then laser spokes are not stiff enough for a reliable wheel for most riders. Howver rims have moved on and for many riders now a Laser or it aero equivelent the CX-ray will do just fine. I can assure you a 28 spoke wheel built with lasers and the archetype or pacenti rim is so stiff there is no chance of the NDS spokes going slack and that is what kills spokes. drlodge rides narrow ambrosio rims and thats what he likes.

Good points made (although its not that I like narrower rims, its just what I have...). What you learn from this post is that its the right combination of hubs/spokes/rims that makes a good wheel and is where the experience of a good wheel builder comes into its own. Harry Rowland tends to build solid, reliable, tried and test wheels using Open Pro rims, hence he won't use lasers on the rear. Other rims like the Archetype that he doesn't use are stiffer so can take a lighter spoke it seems. I continue to learn from these guys and is why there is never a simple answer to the "what wheel is best" question...if you want to know what wheel is best for you, ask Ugo, thecycleclinic or Harry Rowland etc and take their advice. Other experienced wheel builders are available.

letap73

The prevalent advice I have seen is that money is best spent on hubs for durability reasons and if cost is to be kept down spend less on the rims. However, if rims such as the HED + range are wider leading to greater comfort and supposedly more assured handling into corners then surely for ride purposes it is better to spend money on rims - especially since Novatech and Miche hubs are relatively cheap and easy to work with. The just riding along website has the HED rims in the custom wheelbuilder at circa £120.

For someone who requires greater comfort and assured handling capabilities especially into corners and wanting to use such wheels on dry days - the HED/Novatech/Miche hub combination would be ideal? What other benefit is there to using to having very expensive Chris King hubs - apart from durability?

Ugo - I am sure myself and others would be fascinated to know what your ride experience is with the HED rims and whether they are worth the money.

drlodge

I'm in two minds on hubs.

One train of thought says spend good money on good hubs, since they will (or should) outlast a few rims. Hence why I got Record hubs for my Rourke (plus they match the rest of the Campag Record group set and look nice).

The other train of thought say get something cheap yet maintainble e.g. Novatec. at the end of the day a hub is a hub. A few grams weight difference makes sod all difference in reality, and as long as cartridge bearings, freehubs etc are all replacable or serviceable then they are still very cost effective. Hence why I got Novatec hobs for my carbon tubular wheels.

I would need a good reason to spend alot of money on hubs in the future, they would have to be bullet proof or very very nice looking. Royce hubs might fit into that camp, but they are really £££££

DiscoBoy

Justridealong have HED wheels in their configurator... but take for ever to actually get them.

a la:
viewtopic.php?f=40042&t=12964664

MisterMuncher

There's probably a sweet spot between the two. I reckon, based on not very much but using 6800 hubs and having tried a large number of Shimano based wheels, that the new 5800 hubs are going to hit the mark for a lot of people.

ugo.santalucia

drlodge wrote:

Royce hubs might fit into that camp, but they are really £££££

Annoyingly, Novatec hubs, just like Shimano ones, are forged before machining, whilst most expensive western hubs are only machined from a billet. As a result, you will hardly ever find a cracked Novatec flange, while I have seen cracked Royce and DT Swiss.

cycleclinic

Ti royce hubs won't crack though. to be fair Royce do not recomend radial lacing on their hubs but some will do it regardless. Royce hubs are just well made with large high end bearing and ti bits. Look after they will last a very long time indeed. CK hubs are simply overpriced, over here and require silly expensive tools to service them fully. DT swiss hubs are nice but flange seperation is not optimal for a road hub. Miche and Novatec hubs are pretty good for what they are, cheap and reliable.

campagnolo record are perfect, not too expensive and there design means nothing can wear out is not replacebale apart from the ratchet ring. If they did them in more drillings everyone would be using them. I see nothing wrong with mating HED rims to Miche hubs. I will be doing it for myself at some point.

drlodge

thecycleclinic wrote:

campagnolo record are perfect, not too expensive and there design means nothing can wear out is not replacebale apart from the ratchet ring. If they did them in more drillings everyone would be using them.

Amen to that! Having only 32 hole is a right PITA. I really like the bearing adjustment thingy too, its so quick and simple to use.

cycleclinic

Miche hubs have the same bearing adjustment as well but cartidge bearing and onather 100g in weight. You could argue that Miche hubs are nearly perfect.

drlodge

yeh but Miche wouldn't match as nicely with my Super Record groupset

cycleclinic

No they wouldn't which is why they are not perfect. Royce gold ti/carbon hubs would though and would more than half nearly as much as your groupset. Oh I have a set to go with a record groupset thats perfect.

ugo.santalucia

Back from holidays, 500 miles between france and the Italian alps in a couple of weeks and I can honestly say I never looked if my hubs matched my mismatched group set... :roll:

Paolo