white van man on a bike

oblongomaculatus

On ITV tonight, Road Rage Britain, where a regular cyclist and a white van driver swap places in an attempt to see things from each others' perspective. Just seen a short clip on BBC Breakfast, followed by an interview with the two people.

White van man didn't like being on a bike at all! ("This is horrible... fumes, noise, people cutting you up...") But in the interview didn't he actually seem to have learned much. Asked if his spell on a bike would change the way he drives regarding cyclists, he said that he would "acknowledge them if they acknowledge me", whatever that means, but then went on to say how much he disliked the way cyclists ride "three and four deep, having a nice chat about what they'll be having for their tea". He was presumably referring to groups of road cyclists on country roads, but when the interviewer and the cyclist featured explained why cyclists ride this way sometimes - i.e. to discourage motorists from passing too closely - the point seemed to go right over his head.

What a pity. Still, maybe in the programme itself he will be shown to have taken some of the hazards riders face back behind the wheel with him.

iron-clover

I'm hoping to watch it tonight- although they'll probably be looking for the most polarised people they can to make for more entertaining viewing.

I can only imagine those switching to bikes will probably have the worst time, and the cyclists switching to the others will just get bored (assuming they already have the licensees to drive those vehicles!)

My favorite documentary on the subject so far was where the BBC had taken lots of helmet cam and dash cam footage (some from YouTube) and interviewed the different parties, plus got their comments from the other videos they were using. It was nice to see that most of the people who initially planted themselves firmly for/ against cyclists after watching the videos generally responded with comments as any decent person would.
Everyone was shocked into silence by the footage from Scotland of a near miss with a HGV pulling onto and across a roundabout without looking.

Unfortunately I don't think the one tonight will be quite as thoughtful.

oblongomaculatus

I was hoping that having been on a bike for a while white van man would have said something like "I never realised how intimidating and dangerous close passing can be for a cyclist. I'll be giving them a lot more room from now on." Maybe he will say that on the programme, though I suspect that's a bit too optimistic.

The cyclist made an interesting comment from behind the wheel, that advance stop boxes can be hard to see. I'm sure that the most common reasons for finding a car in one are indifference, not paying attention, hostility towards riders etc, but I hadn't considered the visibility aspect before. Come to think of it now, though, many are very worn.

Old_Timer

I'm not really familiar with your UK media, is there a link where this could be viewed on-line for ITV? I'd be interested to watch the entire segment and to listen to the cyclist take on things while driving the White Van, also. Sounds like a fair piece to watch from over here in the states.

iron-clover

The full programme hasn't been broadcast yet, but you should be able to watch it on ITVplayer after it's been shown tonight.
Here's a link to the programme's website for now though.
http://www.itv.com/presscentre/press-re ... 5WvrCjb5FY

downhill paul

I think all drivers should have to do their time on two wheels before being allowed to drive a car.
put them in busy traffic for a few months with cars, vans, wagons and buses passing inches from them at high speed and they will soon change their tune. this documentary doesn't seem to make much sense as the more dangerous of the two, the white van man, will have already picked up a lot of bad habits and will have already made up his mind as to who he likes and dislikes on the road. it's like sending a football supporter to watch another team for a period of time, they are not suddenly going to see the error of their ways and support a different team are they.

Old_Timer

iron-clover wrote:

The full programme hasn't been broadcast yet, but you should be able to watch it on ITVplayer after it's been shown tonight.
Here's a link to the programme's website for now though.
http://www.itv.com/presscentre/press-re ... 5WvrCjb5FY

Thanks very much, I'll look forward to being able to watch this segment.

foggybike

Old_Timer wrote:

iron-clover wrote:

The full programme hasn't been broadcast yet, but you should be able to watch it on ITVplayer after it's been shown tonight.
Here's a link to the programme's website for now though.
http://www.itv.com/presscentre/press-re ... 5WvrCjb5FY

Thanks very much, I'll look forward to being able to watch this segment.

You probably won't be able to watch it from outside the UK. If not, try and get a VPN with a uk server and watch via that.

Bozman

The programme should have been called Cyclists with Attitude.

Take London out of this issue and you wouldn't have enough material for a 30 second advert. You've got a big city with thousands of cyclists on very busy roads, add the southern attitude and it's a recipe for disaster.

StillGoing

You need to get around more. You can find conflict between cyclists and road users in any city. Standards of driving in this country are abysmal especially when a good number of drivers haven't actually taken a driving test or are continually using their foreign licence as an authority to drive on British roads.

monkimark

What's a southern attitude? I'm worried that as a northerner living in London and shortly moving to Surrey, I might need to know this stuff.

Bozman

monkimark wrote:

What's a southern attitude? I'm worried that as a northerner living in London and shortly moving to Surrey, I might need to know this stuff.

A general lack of common courtesy. I go to London quite a lot and the inlaws live in Surrey and find the difference immense compared to the rest of the country.
I went down for a match this year and I took a friend who had never been to London, after one day in London he said that it wouldn't bother him if he never went there again, he'd never come across such a bunch of ignorant ill mannered people in all of his life.

iron-clover

Here's the ITV player link:
https://www.itv.com/itvplayer/road-rage-britain

I agree that general behavior get's worse the closer you get to London. Everyone just HAS to get wherever they're going as quickly as possible, and stuff anyone else.
*Not everyone is really like that, but it can feel like it at times... I find it also applies in the town centers- having to step out of the way of people too busy to look where they're actually walking.

Originally from the South Coast things are a little more laid back down there, and there is more space per person out in the country so I don't often have problems with other road users down there. Living in South Oxfordshire was a dream- everyone was a lot more laid back and pretty much never had any issues with anyone at all!

Now living in Guildford and it's a lot less pleasant cycling and walking through town around here. Admittedly I haven't really had many incidents this year, but everything is a lot busier. I have been attacked by a car passenger and rammed by a van during my last year here in 2012 though.

BrandonA

Out of the 4 featured people: taxi driver; white van man; woman who cycles for leisure and a cycle courier the white van man came off the worst.

The taxi driver got into the spirit of the program. Was fun to watch him jumping lights but he also commented on how exposed he felt. The lady appreciated how awkward it is to see cyclists in a larger vehicle. The courier enjoyed his driving lessons and acknowledged that motorists have a lot of things to think about.

The white van man had a negative attitude going in and was determined not to change his thoughts. Even when the lady told him that he doesn't pay road tax and that she pays for the roads like him through council tax he didn't realize he was completely wrong.

The program was a bit of a let down in that most of the clips that were shown off road rage incidents are the clips that have been circulated already via the mainstream cycling sites.

I know I can get quite wound up when I get cut up on my bike. Watching the cycle cam clips does make you realise that you don't know what sort of nutter is in the car and it is probably best to let it pass and move on.

The funniest part was a clip at the end. It showed a white van driver who'd exited his van to have a go at someone. From the clip it was not clear who. He'd shut his van door and it auto locked resulting in his car being stranded in a right hand lane. What a muppet.

Old_Timer

Interesting comparison here, you seem to have a North v. South thing going on in the UK as far as attitudes towards cyclist. Here its the southern stereotyped "Bubba" in a 4X4 truck that everyone thinks will eat them alive if they ride in the south of the states or in any rural area. Its rubbish and in all my 57 years of living in the rural south of the US I've yet to encounter or have a bad time with the locals (disclosure: I do drive a 4X4 truck when not cycling, its for construction work) its the teens in the city that will get you hurt with bottle and can tossing at cyclist. The texting and cellphone problem here is what will kill more people than road rage :x . The self-important men and women :evil: and brain dead teenagers :twisted: with more important things to do than paying attention to the road are breeding :shock: and taking over :? .

I'll watch the episode on the ITV player this evening and see what the white van guy and the cyclist have to say. Should be very interesting to watch and compare to our problems here.

HellsCyclist

BrandonA wrote:

Out of the 4 featured people: taxi driver; white van man; woman who cycles for leisure and a cycle courier the white van man came off the worst.

The taxi driver got into the spirit of the program. Was fun to watch him jumping lights but he also commented on how exposed he felt. The lady appreciated how awkward it is to see cyclists in a larger vehicle. The courier enjoyed his driving lessons and acknowledged that motorists have a lot of things to think about.

The white van man had a negative attitude going in and was determined not to change his thoughts. Even when the lady told him that he doesn't pay road tax and that she pays for the roads like him through council tax he didn't realize he was completely wrong.

The program was a bit of a let down in that most of the clips that were shown off road rage incidents are the clips that have been circulated already via the mainstream cycling sites.

I know I can get quite wound up when I get cut up on my bike. Watching the cycle cam clips does make you realise that you don't know what sort of nutter is in the car and it is probably best to let it pass and move on.

The funniest part was a clip at the end. It showed a white van driver who'd exited his van to have a go at someone. From the clip it was not clear who. He'd shut his van door and it auto locked resulting in his car being stranded in a right hand lane. What a muppet.

I agree, although I was laughing through most of the program. Its hilarious how OTT some people react or how upset they get over silly things. Definitely glad I dont live or work London, looks like hell.

Frank Wilson

I can foresee a follow up programme where romance blossoms between the lady cyclist in Manchester and the white van man she swopped places with.

rolf_f

downhill paul wrote:

I think all drivers should have to do their time on two wheels before being allowed to drive a car

And I presume you also would think that all cyclist should need driving experience before riding a bike on the roads? If we've learned anything from the programme it should be that the problem is the lack of appreciation of the others perspective from both sides.

It would be nice if drivers all had experience of riding bikes but it works both ways and at least car drivers generally (hopefully....) have had some formal training so they do have an element of moral high ground there.

downhill paul

I liked how the woman from Manchester made a point to the van driver that there is no such thing as road tax.
the paper on your windscreen is a pollution tax. roads are paid for by general taxation, mainly council tax. so in fact everyone pays for the roads.

oblongomaculatus

HellsCyclist wrote:

Its hilarious how OTT some people react or how upset they get over silly things. Definitely glad I dont live or work London, looks like hell.

Just finished watching; I agree with both these points; all that screaming and shouting over what look to me like very minor discourtesies; way over the top. If most of the footage is from London, I'm glad never to have cycled there. In Cambridge, where I spend several hours on a bike every day for my job, while it's often congested and you get people doing silly things almost by the minute (cyclists and pedestrians as well as motorists) There is nothing like the level of aggression. In six years I have never encountered anything more than a beep on the horn, and in fact often find motorists prepared to let me through when it's not my right of way (turning right across oncoming traffic, for example). I always give a wave of thanks and, in turn, let motorists in when I can. When I do encounter bad driving, I do feel like having a polite word with a motorist in question at the next set of lights, but always resist the urge, because even if you can present your case is a calm and reasonable manner (which is difficult to do if you're stressed) you have absolutely no idea what sort of person you're dealing with. They might be reasonable and apologetic... and they might not. And if you open the conversation with a volley of abuse (even if richly deserved) it's not surprising if they respond the same way. (How many cyclists got thumped in all that footage? Anybody counting?)

The cab driver, perhaps surprisingly, seemed the most open to learning; he said he would be leaving more space when passing in future. Shame about the way he made a point of trundling cheerfully through every red light he encountered. Didn't anyone explain this is not allowed?

White van man Gaz was at the other end of the scale. It was hilarious how much he hated being on a bike, whinging about absolutely everything, especially when being passed by vans ("I could have got into that van, it was that close") which as far as I could see didn't get especially near to him. So how much room does/will Gaz give cyclists? He wasn't saying...

And did anyone else wince watching the courier guy weaving in and out of traffic and squeezing through tiny spaces between vehicles which might at any instant close up even further?

By the way, I hope that parrot made it to the vets in time too.

dj58

I thought the white van man was a bit of a plank, spouting the usual rubbish about cyclist's not paying "road tax" and getting in "HIS" way. Glad the Lady cyclist from Manchester put him right on that one. He learnt nothing from his experience on the bike because he has no empathy for any other road user, closed minded and selfish, unfortunately a lot more like him driving on the roads these days.

I couldn't do the cycle couriers job, to hair raising for me diving through those tiny gaps in the traffic, all those people stepping into the road without looking, Buses and Taxi's cutting you up/pulling out in front of you. At least the Cabby seemed to acknowledge some of the problems cyclists have in traffic though.

Anonymous

The white van man was a complete tw4t it seems then?
I could only watch 5 min as did not want blood to boil dry.

So he did not know his vehicle tax does not pay for the roads.
He also did not know that bikes do not have to use cycle lanes and have every right to use the road.

He probably thinks he cannot cross solid white lines to overtake a bike and enjoys driving really close to them.
I wonder what else he does not know.

People that do not know these things should not be on the road IMO
As a country/society we seem really happy to be making thousands of them though :roll:

dsoutar

Bozman wrote:

monkimark wrote:

What's a southern attitude? I'm worried that as a northerner living in London and shortly moving to Surrey, I might need to know this stuff.

A general lack of common courtesy. I go to London quite a lot and the inlaws live in Surrey and find the difference immense compared to the rest of the country.
I went down for a match this year and I took a friend who had never been to London, after one day in London he said that it wouldn't bother him if he never went there again, he'd never come across such a bunch of ignorant ill mannered people in all of his life.

The cities in the north of England (and in Scotland for that matter) are full of just as many rsoles in my experience - they just have different accents

mrfpb

dsoutar wrote:

Bozman wrote:

monkimark wrote:

What's a southern attitude? I'm worried that as a northerner living in London and shortly moving to Surrey, I might need to know this stuff.

A general lack of common courtesy. I go to London quite a lot and the inlaws live in Surrey and find the difference immense compared to the rest of the country.
I went down for a match this year and I took a friend who had never been to London, after one day in London he said that it wouldn't bother him if he never went there again, he'd never come across such a bunch of ignorant ill mannered people in all of his life.

The cities in the north of England (and in Scotland for that matter) are full of just as many rsoles in my experience - they just have different accents

I think it's down to population density, and actually I think there is a specific "London" attitude, not universal but in general road user's in London are more stressed, rude and inconsiderate. I learnt to drive in Hillingdon/Harrow on the edge of the London area then moved to the North East. I'm glad I didn't do that the other way around as driving in the North East was a doddle. I'm also thankful I learnt to drive before becoming a bike commuter, as most of my road sense was gained in my driving lessons.

When I did the London to Brighton moonride last year, cycling through London from 11.00 pm to midnight was like cycling in Newcastle, Guildford or Slough in the rush hour. It was clear that many of the cyclists taking part didn't have a lot of urban road sense. It was quite scary at times.

monkimark

I know one thing for sure, people in leafy Surrey are typically more friendly than people in city centre Manchester. It's almost certainly down to population density - if you spend your morning jammed like sardines into a tube train then people will inevitably rub you up the wrong way (no pun intended), if you only see a couple of people a day as you walk the dog then you'll probably bid them a cheery good morning.

It's not as bad as all that either, there are plenty of cheery strangers I chat to in London. Maybe you're just coming across as a mardy northerner and nobody wants to talk to you

anthigh

Check this out for a near miss on a recent sportive, unbelievable.http://youtu.be/hE4puFkSHY8

cat_with_no_tail

anthigh wrote:

Check this out for a near miss on a recent sportive, unbelievable.http://youtu.be/hE4puFkSHY8

Christ, there is 5 minutes I'll never get back. Kept watching, waiting for some sort of horrendous close pass. Never happened though.

Looks to me like the civic driver just underestimated the number of cyclists there riding together (and I use the term in the loosest possible sense because that pack was all over the place) on open roads so started his overtake and ran out of room.

He didn't pass overly quickly, or particularly close.

He didn't cut back in when confronted with a car travelling in the opposite direction, nor did he lose the head and lean on his horn on the way past the second time. Seems like an absolute non-event, far from "unbelievable".

All the sportive type open roads events over here come with strict instructions to keep group sizes as small as possible. People caught riding in large groups and holding up traffic like the video would be pretty heavily chastised for it. Mostly because there is simply no need.


ETA: IMHO of course

asprilla

Cat With No Tail wrote:

anthigh wrote:

Check this out for a near miss on a recent sportive, unbelievable.http://youtu.be/hE4puFkSHY8

Christ, there is 5 minutes I'll never get back. Kept watching, waiting for some sort of horrendous close pass. Never happened though.

Looks to me like the civic driver just underestimated the number of cyclists there riding together (and I use the term in the loosest possible sense because that pack was all over the place) on open roads so started his overtake and ran out of room.

He didn't pass overly quickly, or particularly close.

He didn't cut back in when confronted with a car travelling in the opposite direction, nor did he lose the head and lean on his horn on the way past the second time. Seems like an absolute non-event, far from "unbelievable".

All the sportive type open roads events over here come with strict instructions to keep group sizes as small as possible. People caught riding in large groups and holding up traffic like the video would be pretty heavily chastised for it. Mostly because there is simply no need.


ETA: IMHO of course

I agree. that group looked massive and being a sportive as opposed to a club ride, no-one was moving to single file or leaving gaps to allow safe overtaking.

Schoie81

Carbonator wrote:

The white van man was a complete tw4t it seems then?
I could only watch 5 min as did not want blood to boil dry.

So he did not know his vehicle tax does not pay for the roads.
He also did not know that bikes do not have to use cycle lanes and have every right to use the road.

He probably thinks he cannot cross solid white lines to overtake a bike and enjoys driving really close to them.
I wonder what else he does not know.

People that do not know these things should not be on the road IMO
As a country/society we seem really happy to be making thousands of them though :roll:

Very true! I honestly question the driving capabilities of drivers who get angry with cyclists. If they can't overtake a cyclist who is little more than 2feet wide and cycling at 20-25mph (on hills more like 5-15mph) without endangering his or herself, drivers coming the other way or the cyclist then are they really safe to be behind the wheel in the first place? It shouldn't be that hard to do?