options for an easier gear
Comments
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Yes. Physics does take consideration of CV and leg muscle strength. You appear not to however, as these are the simplest and most most obvious examples of why everyone should not be aspiring to use the same gear ratios.SmoggySteve wrote:The OP has lost 20kg so far. That equates to the same as 2 average weight alu framed bikes. Going up 2 teeth you suggest. I would argue that in shedding 20kg he in a way already has. Physics as you keep relying on to justify your case takes no consideration for CV and leg muscle strength. I know big guys who can out climb people who weigh alot less. Why? Through training and putting the effort in.
Lets say he takes your advice and gets lower gears. He still struggles, do you suggest he gets even lower and lower gears? Where does it stop? How about people start just getting on the damn bike and pushing the peddles. You cant climb too well, technique coyld make a bigger difference than a few teeth on a cog. There are more variables to consider than weight vs gravity. Physics is not the means to answer every question and quite frankly your talking bollox with it.
I already explained where it stops - when you can't go up the hill you want to climb fast enough to keep your balance then you have to accept you're simply being too ambitious. Potential max sustained speed up a hill is dictated primarily by rolling mass, gradient and max sustainable power. All other factors are very minor by comparison. It is not dictated by gearing. The best gearing for any given hill will accomodate whatever that potential max sustainable speed happens to be. This is true for you, Quintana and the OP. Yet you want the OP to live with much tougher constraints than you or Quintana. Doesn't seem fair or rational to me. No, it just seems to me like you don't understand what you're talking about. I repeat my invitation for you to demonstrate otherwise.
Who ever suggested not pushing the pedals and putting the effort in? I think you imagined that bit. What's bring suggested is not doing less but rather making it possible to do more. The gears don't make you try harder. But if you're heavy and/ or the hill is too steep may have to either have to get off and walk or turn back. How does that make anyone a better cyclist?
You accuse me of talking bollox and yet while I'm telling you why I believe what I do you have yet to give a rational reason for any of your assertions. I believe I've credibly rebutted your claims but you have yet to even attempt to point out a single error on mine.
If you understand what you're talking about then please explain. If you can't then you have no place telling anyone else they're lazy, whiny fools who aren't trying hard enough.0 -
Sorry I took so long to reply. I was busy out riding my bike. You know, getting fitter, pushing myself harder, keeping going harder and faster to improve myself. I could have sat in front of my computer talking a good game or looked on wiggle for a quick fix to take them precious seconds off of a Strava segment or buy a different component to beat that tricky climb, but I decided I would just ride my bloody bike instead. You know what I feel better already. You should try it sometime
Nuff said0 -
Sorry missed this gem in my initial response and felt the need to fix that.SmoggySteve wrote:.....How about people start just getting on the damn bike and pushing the peddles. You cant climb too well, technique coyld make a bigger difference than a few teeth on a cog......
Let's pick a weight that's reasonably representative of a typical club rider of average height who's in decent shape but not especially lightweight. Shall we say 72kg?
Now let's say I weighed 108kg.
I need 50% more power to get up the hill at a similar pace. Say he can sustain 250W. Then I needed o be able to do 375W. You think there's 125W to be gained by practicing pedal technique?
Really?
No. As previously, it's not going to be possible for a heavier rider to match a lighter one up a hill unless they're proportionally stronger (in which I include CV capability).
So a rider who's carrying extra weight will typically have no choice but to go slower. That being the case they will need smaller gear will ratios to maintain reasonable cadence. If you think this is cheating then please explain why you change gears on hills, or do you use a single speed with the largest chsinring and smallest sprocket you could find regardless of the terrain?0 -
Isnt this fun?
Perfect evidence to support the suspicions I stated earlier about your knowledge of the subject matter you discuss.SmoggySteve wrote:Sorry I took so long to reply. I was busy out riding my bike. You know, getting fitter, pushing myself harder, keeping going harder and faster to improve myself. I could have sat in front of my computer talking a good game or looked on wiggle for a quick fix to take them precious seconds off of a Strava segment or buy a different component to beat that tricky climb, but I decided I would just ride my bloody bike instead. You know what I feel better already. You should try it sometime
Nuff said
I "should try it sometime? Do you know how much I ride? Tell me?
No, I doubt you do unless you've spent a lot of that cycling time trawling through posts to find somewhere I may have mentioned it.
Still taking about stuff you don't know or understand I think.
There's more than one way to "improve" yourself by the way.0 -
SmoggySteve - as you appear to disagree with people wanting to use appropriate gearing for their level of fitness and their targeted rides, are we assume that your sheer awesomeness means that you ride a single speed at all times?
If not, and you are changing gear, then surely your own argument means that you need to HTFU and train more?
Obviously, I apologise for wasting my time in front of a keyboard rather than being out training...0 -
I think the OP has gone with SmoggySteve's advice.
He has certainly not wasted any cycling/training time on his thread at least
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The likes of the HTFU merchants represent everything that's wrong with the culture of road cycling. Some people just want to go out and ride their bikes, you know?0
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That depends.
I think you have to find the right range to suit your needs.
Putting ever bigger cassettes/cages on is not really the answer IMO, but of course neither is struggling with ones that are too small.
The answer for the OP could easily be to train with what he has.
He has bought an expensive/racy bike and entered a sportive.
That does not sound like he 'just wants to get out and ride his bike' to me.
The issue is still his Di2 anyway.0 -
The thing is training IS riding. So suggesting training as a way to fix a current problem is silly. Of course training will improve your riding but you have to ride to do it so the implication of this suggestion is that beginners should ride unsuitable bikes until they've developed their abilities or they should only ride on easy terrain. There's not a single good reason I've ever heard as to why that makes sense. If your agenda was to make new cyclists miserable and put them off cycling then this is exactly how you would go about it!Carbonator wrote:That depends.
I think you have to find the right range to suit your needs.
Putting ever bigger cassettes/cages on is not really the answer IMO, but of course neither is struggling with ones that are too small.
The answer for the OP could easily be to train with what he has.
He has bought an expensive/racy bike and entered a sportive.
That does not sound like he 'just wants to get out and ride his bike' to me.
The issue is still his Di2 anyway.
The safest, healthiest, most comfortable and most productive way to match a person and a machine is to adapt the machine, not the person. It's called ergonomics. It's not about being hard or soft. It's not about putting in the effort or taking it easy. It's about being sensible and using the tools at your disposal. Having the gears available doesn't mean you'll train less or improve less. You can still train as hard as you like.
Anyone who's read a few threads here will be well aware that the common mantra for advising beginners on which bike to buy is that they should prioritise getting the fit right with many suggestions to spend on a bike fitting. I find this to be very inconsistent with advice that you should then use the wrong gears since any modifications are a cheat or a short term solution. Bike fits are based on variables that change over time too you know. Most new cyclists, especially those who are in their 30s or older, will not be able for a very aggressive position initially. So is a bike with a more upright position a waste of money? After all it's a temporary solution as they're likely to want a lower position later, when they've done the training......0 -
Jeez you hate everyone, allow someone to have their own opinion.
He's lost 20kg he'll probably lose more. When he does that money he spent on a new Di2 rear derailleur, new cassette and new inner front chainring (which wouldn't work anyway, the front derailleur wouldn't be able to shift the gap) will seem like a bit of a waste.
Just keep churning at 50 it gets easier. Not that the Op will ever look at this I'm sure you've thoroughly pout him off the forum.0 -
Considering gear reconfigurations are cheap there's no reason not to have the right gears for what you need *now* not how it might be in 6 months time.0
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Not cheap if you're at the limit of your short cage derailleur and already on the smallest compact...0
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lawrences wrote:Not cheap if you're at the limit of your short cage derailleur and already on the smallest compact...
Most will take up to 30T, mine does, and 34/30 is what we've been discussing. If you're talking about going 34/32 or even 30/32 then I'd agree.0 -
Agreed.markhewitt1978 wrote:lawrences wrote:Not cheap if you're at the limit of your short cage derailleur and already on the smallest compact...
Most will take up to 30T, mine does, and 34/30 is what we've been discussing. If you're talking about going 34/32 or even 30/32 then I'd agree.
Incidentally, is it possible to make a short cage de-railleur into a medium or long cage version simply by replacing the cage pieces or is it necessary to replace the entire derailleur?0 -
markhewitt1978 wrote:
Do pro riders ever use compact chainsets for the mountains?
no one ever answered this! the answer, is yes they do. If I am right, they would use a compact with a 29 tooth sprocket...I only found this out as I've just bought a new bike with a compact which I had never used before. FWIW, my old standard chainset of 39/53 with a 12/27 cassette is ever so slightly inside the ratios offered by my new steed with its 34/50 compact and 11/25 cassette.
So far so good on the compact, and I think that as a new rider who prefers climbing to speeding down descents, the compact is preferable.Wilier Zero.7 Chorus0 -
Since Shimano has released an Ultegra 11 speed, mechanical, GS-long cage derailleur and cassette with a 32 large cog maybe they will go to the GS Di2 rear for the climbers using the electronic shifting. Like the SRAM WiFli set up with their climbers in mind.
Not going to enter the current training v. spending debate here, either :roll:Lets just got for a ride, the heck with all this stuff...0 -
My advice.
Buy a wide ratio cassette.
Make the effort to tackle climbs in a slightly higher gear to strengthen your legs with the reassurance that you have a lower gear available if you start to tire.
If you modify your technique/get stronger/whatever switch back to your older cassette
If you like having a lower gear, stick with the wider ratio cassette
Ignore what other people think.0 -
Ignore it, it's a trap!0
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Ai_1 wrote:
Agreed.markhewitt1978 wrote:lawrences wrote:Not cheap if you're at the limit of your short cage derailleur and already on the smallest compact...
Most will take up to 30T, mine does, and 34/30 is what we've been discussing. If you're talking about going 34/32 or even 30/32 then I'd agree.
Incidentally, is it possible to make a short cage de-railleur into a medium or long cage version simply by replacing the cage pieces or is it necessary to replace the entire derailleur?
Yes, it is almost as easy as changing the jockey wheels but good luck finding a bike shop that will supply the parts. Best bet will be an LBS when they aren't particularly busy, weekday mornings are usually good times. If you are lucky they will take one apart and charge you for the cost of replacement parts, I've done this for lever parts before.I used to just ride my bike to work but now I find myself going out looking for bigger and bigger hills.0 -
SmoggySteve wrote:Gozzy wrote:Someone asked, "Why throw money at a short term solution to getting up some climbs?"
Why don't we ask the likes of Alberto Contador who famously uses SRAM wi-fli low gears when he hits the mountains? Should he htfu?
I think the answer really is, if you need smaller gears to get round a course, you get them and use them. I've always considered cycling to be about using gears appropriate to the terrain, depending on your ability.
1. Contador is racing and results matter more if its your job
2. He doesn't have to pay for his bike or bits
Point 1 conveniently backs up my main point, which is that you're best off using gears appropriate to the situation.
Point 2 is largely irrelevant, considering the price of a tiagra cassette. Besides, it's not the main issue is it? The main issue is using the appropriate gears, rather than inappropriate ones.
Using the right gears means you can ride your bike, where you want to ride it, without restriction.0 -
Gozzy wrote:SmoggySteve wrote:Gozzy wrote:Someone asked, "Why throw money at a short term solution to getting up some climbs?"
Why don't we ask the likes of Alberto Contador who famously uses SRAM wi-fli low gears when he hits the mountains? Should he htfu?
I think the answer really is, if you need smaller gears to get round a course, you get them and use them. I've always considered cycling to be about using gears appropriate to the terrain, depending on your ability.
1. Contador is racing and results matter more if its your job
2. He doesn't have to pay for his bike or bits
Point 1 conveniently backs up my main point, which is that you're best off using gears appropriate to the situation.
Point 2 is largely irrelevant, considering the price of a tiagra cassette. Besides, it's not the main issue is it? The main issue is using the appropriate gears, rather than inappropriate ones.
Using the right gears means you can ride your bike, where you want to ride it, without restriction.
You and others just don't get it do you?
The OP has lost 20kg riding with what he has over months and has lost a massive amount of weight and improved his fitness. Why NOW should he suddenly need to start buying gears to make it easier? You should applaud his spirit and perseverance for doing what he has done on the bike he has. The horse has bolted as far as getting the gears changed. I mentioned it before but losing 20kg is almost like adding a gear in itself. If he can lose another 20kg then he has made that extra couple of teeth on his lowest gear redundant. I am not and never have said HTFU. Others have and in some, not all cases its pretty much what is right. In this case the OP can rightly look at himself and say he has got balls of steel for doing what he has and I think everyone should encourage what he has done so far. I think the idea at this point of suggesting he just makes it a bit easier and drops it down a bit insult all he has achieved.
If the OP really wants to buy another cassette go ahead but I feel that at this point he has proved he really doesnt need to. I appreciate hos goal is riding in a sportive but you get nothing for finishing it other than personal pride and you can get more for doing that with what he has. Even if he maybe has to get off and push now and then. There is no shame in that if you try your best. As I said before, another 20kg off with improved fitness and an ever reducing waistline the gears will probably not even be needed and he will be flying up them hills in a higher gear anyway.
OP, I salute you for your efforts. Continue as you are and you will be just fine.0 -
Yes - we do get it.... up to now he's avoided hills and managed to drop 20Kg...SmoggySteve wrote:You and others just don't get it do you?
The OP has lost 20kg riding with what he has over months and has lost a massive amount of weight and improved his fitness. Why NOW should he suddenly need to start buying gears to make it easier?
We do - that weight loss is superb.SmoggySteve wrote:You should applaud his spirit and perseverance for doing what he has done on the bike he has.
Absolute bollx - of course it hasn't. I've changed my crankset for a hill ride this year and I'm changing my cassette on the TT bike for a hilly course next week. I have several cassettes and with that the luxury of being able to select the right gears for the ride ahead.SmoggySteve wrote:The horse has bolted as far as getting the gears changed.
Your last sentence - you're wrong. Absolutely plain and simply wrong. It's like suggesting that someone who TTs a flat 10 mile at say 25 mins should go and use the same setup for a hilly 25 - that's nuts. The Pro's wouldn't do it and for the cost of a cassette why should we do it?SmoggySteve wrote:I mentioned it before but losing 20kg is almost like adding a gear in itself. If he can lose another 20kg then he has made that extra couple of teeth on his lowest gear redundant. I am not and never have said HTFU. Others have and in some, not all cases its pretty much what is right. In this case the OP can rightly look at himself and say he has got balls of steel for doing what he has and I think everyone should encourage what he has done so far. I think the idea at this point of suggesting he just makes it a bit easier and drops it down a bit insult all he has achieved.
The OP is trying to build more hills into his rides - that's great because it's a good way to train putting the power down - there is no soft pedaling. However, he isn't going to get better if he has to get off and walk because one part of the hill is currently too steep for him. Give him an extra gear and it's a OPTION for him to get up that hill still on his bike.
The OP also has a sportive coming up - I've not looked at the course, but from the name Dartmoor Classic I can guess it'll have a reasonable number of hills in .. ok - I'll look ...
67miles and 6300feet or 107miles and 10000feet ... In my book either route is hilly and I'd consider my gearing (current lowest 34/27) - probably taking the 28-11 or perhaps even the 30-12 cassette - depends on the gradients really. IMHO The OP would be nuts not to consider his gearing too - especially as this event is in just over a weeks time and there's no way he can drop another 20kg in that time ...
If the OP really wants to buy another cassette go ahead but I feel that at this point he has proved he really doesnt need to. I appreciate hos goal is riding in a sportive but you get nothing for finishing it other than personal pride and you can get more for doing that with what he has. Even if he maybe has to get off and push now and then. There is no shame in that if you try your best. As I said before, another 20kg off with improved fitness and an ever reducing waistline the gears will probably not even be needed and he will be flying up them hills in a higher gear anyway.
OP, I salute you for your efforts. Continue as you are and you will be just fine.[/quote]0 -
Yes - we do get it.... up to now he's avoided hills and managed to drop 20Kg...
Really???I still don't love hills but i am now including more and more hills rather than trying to avoid them.
You seem to making this up to bolster your argument. Seems to me like he is struggling to get up hills but is still doing them. /He is by no means doing flat courses otherwise how would he come to this predicament?
So what if you changed your cassette? He ain't you and you ain't him. Buying something for a one off event which I do not believe IMHO (my opinion. I am allowed to have one!!) he needs it. No one likes climbing hills but you get one with it. I find hills that I hate but I get through them. I never go into a route and think next time I will come here with an easier gear, What sort of mentality is that? defeatist that's what it is.
There are cases out there where people probably do need to look at getting lower gears to solve a problem but he is riding a compact with a 28 tooth rear. the extra 2 teeth is not that much to add so this whole argument in this case is so damn pointless. for the sake of 2 teeth he is not gong to make things that much easier.
But I guess you want to have you moment on your soapbox for the sake of argument without really analyzing the information provided.0 -
Yes, you're allowed your view .... But you are wrong ...
Nothing to do with defeatism - it's just using appropriate gears for the task in hand - there's a ride he wants to achieve, it's hilly and an extra 2 teeth may just allow him to complete the ride ... Without walking ...
But hey, he could always heed your advice ... It would work .... By next year ....0 -
+1 to your last few posts Slowbike.
I couldn't be bothered discussing this further with Smoggy. He's got his ideas, which he can't or won't defend with any rationale beyond vague assertions and he's simply not willing to risk being persuaded he's wrong by thinking this through sensibly. It's his problem so long as he doesn't convince others he's got something useful to say.
You're entitled to your opinion Smoggy but if it's based on faulty reasoning and blind faith it's not worth much.....just my opinion you understand.0 -
TBH, Smoggy, pretty much every argument you give can be read as, MTFU, no pain, no gain. Which might be fine for you, but it's not really good general advice.0
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i agree with slow bike. I live in the peak district. I work a60+hour week and have relatively little time to ride the bike. I want to enjoy riding and not walking. I have 34/32.
If I was 30 years younger I would be fine with 34/27. If I had another 10 hours to train a week I would be fine with 34/27. I don't so I have fitted a cassette that works.
It is about enjoying riding the bike not about killing yourself on every ride.0 -
hi all
touch paper had been completely lit i think.
so yesterday was the Dartmoor Classic. the hills were BEASTLY for me. the heat was hard as well. i did the Medio (68 miles) and not the Grande (108) route
gearing and effort. the gearing was kept with 34/28 lowest gear. at some points i did have to really grind away down at 35 to 40 cadence. i did have to stop twice on the hills, firstly between bovey tracey and haytor (12.2 miles in), a very steep narrow lane, recently resurfaced, heavy with cyclists and a 4x4 blocking the lane. had i not stopped i don't think i would have made it up there anyway but due to volume of cyclists walking i couldn't get going again. until 2 helpful people gave me a push to get going again. should they be on here THANK YOU VERY MUCH. secondly on the holne section. i didn't know how long was left on the climb and knew i was at my max effort and couldn't sustain it any longer. stopped for a breather, had to roll down the hill to clip in and got going again.
so two hill stops probably due to fitness, very low RPMs but no walking. towards the end between postbridge and moretonhamstead i was starting to feel rough. after the climb out of moreton i felt like my legs were chewing themselves to pieces. i guess this probably was due to starting to run out of salts and electrolytes (2ltrs of orange squash to princetown and 2ltrs plain water between princetown and the finish).
activity profile here
http://app.strava.com/activities/156720497
so i did it on the gearing i had. i think i will keep the gearing for now. something i would like to clear up though. the distance and total amount of elevation wasn't so much of a concern, it was the gradients of the hills.
thanks all for the opinions and advice
adey0
