Ethics of buying from China

mercia_man

Like everyone on this forum, I love a bargain and much of my cycling stuff comes from China.

But I've become increasingly uneasy about doing so because of China's bad record on issues including human rights, industrial pollution, domination of Tibet, cyber attacks on businesses and the way in which its good value products are harming manufacturers, including cycle companies, in countries like the UK, France and Italy, which behave in a much more responsible manner towards their workers and the environment.

Should we as cyclists simply buy the best and cheapest bikes and gear regardless of manufacturing location?

Bobbinogs

...where does the line end? The USA has some very dodgy international ethics and we invaded Iraq/Afghanistan for no real reason...

One for the Cake Stop methinks.

arran77

You sort of answer your own question......you are aware of the downfalls of countries such as China and it makes you uneasy so just don't buy from them but if you can't resist the bargains then just ignore any feelings of conscience

Colinthecop

I'm not sure if we can blame the little back street workshop producing bargains for Ebay for the human rights issues of its countries Government.

I've stopped though, as someone pointed out on here, that buying cheap stuff on the internet from China promotes drug propagation, smuggling, gun running and terrorism.

Those bib shorts might be a bargain and feed Mr Wongs* family, but I cant have that on my conscience.... :roll:


*A name I made up, apologies to any real Mr Wongs who are not involved in the above criminality. 8)

ugo.santalucia

I was thinking the same the other day reading the paper...
While all of Europe and the Western world condemns Putin's annexion of Crimea, China took the opportunity to get some discount on a massive gas deal with Russia (worried they might not be able to sell to EU) and clench the deal. I thought it was disgusting and put me off completely... they really don't give a damn toss about the rest of the world

Now, should I stop building H plus Son rims? :roll:

me-109

Mercia Man wrote:

and the way in which its good value products are harming manufacturers, including cycle companies, in countries like the UK, France and Italy, which behave in a much more responsible manner towards their workers and the environment.

So you determine how much more you want to spend on non-Chinese goods and shop accordingly.

There are doubtless further questions (trying not to support the UKIP brigade here) about whether those manufacturers would employ the same conditions were it not for (particularly EU rulings) on minimum wages, health and safety standards to meet, legislation regarding consumer products etc. which pushes up the price of the end product. Would they still be as ethical if they did not have to be? Would the UK have improved worker conditions in the face of trade unions back in the industrial revolution if we had done our version of Tiananmen back then and put down the 'revolutionaries'?

special11

Who gives a sh1t it's clearly never bothered you up until now .... If it's something you like at a price you like then buy it.... Your decision not to buy it for ethical grounds isn't going to change anyone's world ... Except yours

mercia_man

special11 wrote:

Who gives a sh1t it's clearly never bothered you up until now .... If it's something you like at a price you like then buy it.... Your decision not to buy it for ethical grounds isn't going to change anyone's world ... Except yours

Well I give a sh1t. You are mistaken to claim It has never bothered me until now. The more I read about China the more I prefer buying my cycling stuff from countries which have better standards. In the same way, I would not buy stolen goods. It may be at a price I like, but it's ethically wrong.

Just to take the one issue of industrial pollution. China is the dirtiest country in the world and its government is finally trying to do something about the way in which rivers and vast areas of country have been ruined by toxic chemicals and emissions from coal power. Much of the stuff we buy from China is not made in the little workshops mentioned by colinthecop. It comes from huge polluting factories almost like small cities.

I read an interesting article about the way in which the New Zealand merino clothing industry is being wrecked by cut-price competition from China. It suggested that the big name companies which have switched production to China are off-shoring and out-sourcing pollution, enabling them to undercut products from countries where a clean environment is more of a priority.

mm1

A test might be to ask, are the people who made this stuff able to use it? Are they paid enough, do they have enough (or any) leisure time and do they inhabit an environment that allows them to enjoy that use (oh dear, I've used the enjoy word again). If the answers are no, and there is no prospect that the trading of these goods will lead to a situation where the answers become yes, then there may be some matters for your conscience to decide? Poland was once a manufacturer of golf balls, without a single public golf course in the country, now Poles are free to come and play at Wentworth.

Its the 25th anniversary of the Tiananmen Square massacre and commentators are talking about how the Chinese communist regime has effectively bought relative peace with rapid economic development, but is that enough to hold off the desire for change in the longer term? Probably not IMO.

mambo1

I personally think there is a bigger issue here as well. I am not having a go at anybody purchasing from China, I have been guilty of this myself. However, I try to balance my purchases all the way down the line to making certain I purchase as much as possible in the west and from my LBS. At the end of the day , they are the ones who will help me out if I have a problem. I don't bother to save a few euros on tyres and stuff like that by purchasing on the internet. Plus the LBS is a great place to hang out.

The problem with purchasing from China is that whilst we save money on individual items in the short term, we lose out and it possibly costs us more, indirectly, in the long-term. Every time we make a purchase in China, we are draining western economies of finances and ensuring more people are unemployed. More unemployed = less disposable income = more unemployed. A vicious downward spiral.

This is why I've never really liked these Chinese carbon style threads with people patting themselves on the back about how they bought a great or adequate product and saved so much money. they are fooling themselves in the end. Less money in the economy affects all of us.

In Spain where I do a lot of my riding, customs now adds levies to Chinese imported goods whether by companies or individuals. If I wanted too import a frame, the charge is 200 euros on top of hat I paid. I think this is a good measure myself.

My small contribution is that I am going to start having frames manufactured under my own brand and will be doing so in Italy with Italian sourced materials and labour.

StillGoing

Colinthecop wrote:

I'm not sure if we can blame the little back street workshop producing bargains for Ebay for the human rights issues of its countries Government.

I've stopped though, as someone pointed out on here, that buying cheap stuff on the internet from China promotes drug propagation, smuggling, gun running and terrorism.

Those bib shorts might be a bargain and feed Mr Wongs* family, but I cant have that on my conscience.... :roll:


*A name I made up, apologies to any real Mr Wongs who are not involved in the above criminality. 8)

No you were advised about buying illegal copies of goods not cheap alternatives. :roll:

rolf_f

It's not difficult. There's plenty of stuff available that is manufactured in Europe and not at luxury prices (if not bargain basement either) so if you don't want to contribute to Chinas economy at the expense of Europes then do so.

Personally, I try to minimise my purchase of Far Eastern stuff. It's my preference to do so - I think that supporting the economy of firstly the UK and secondly Europe is more constructive to my long term benefit than supporting Chinas economy. But I won't lose too much sleep by buying the odd bit of Far Eastern stuff as long as I've ruled out European options first. The new lightweight wheels I am going to build for my Look will be mostly Far Eastern as equivalent components simply made in the West. I buy commuting jerseys from Aldi because I like to reserve the flashy kit for the weekend.

Increasingly manufacturing is returning to the UK so I think it is worth making an effort to encourage this.

craigmorgan

It's very difficult to just pin it on to china. If you look in to where your every day others are made they are all questionable on the standards for both pollution and the way they treat employers.

As a quick thing I've just looked around the shop I work in (major clothing retailer) and nothing is made in Europe and 95% is now made in Pakistan, a few years ago it was mostly made India.

The answer to the morals of buying from China/Far East is very difficult.

Old_Timer

I've made a conscious effort to buy goods from manufacturers in countries other than Communist China. My problem is that so much of their industry is controlled by the Army/government and they are reaping a windfall of money for their military complex. China shows a desire to dominate the countries around them and to project power in an ever increasing area. I just don't care to financially support their goals and the manner they treat their people.

The Chinese government supports massive amounts of industrial espionage that benefits them and results in the money companies spend on research and development being siphoned off and eventually overpowering them in the market place with lower prices (due to poor working conditions, low wages and no expense on R&D.) That doesn't include the military using technology they steal to obtain an edge over the rest of the world, not only the US military and industry but the EU and the other nations of the Pacific Rim.

YIMan

Rolf F wrote:

It's not difficult. There's plenty of stuff available that is manufactured in Europe and not at luxury prices (if not bargain basement either) so if you don't want to contribute to Chinas economy at the expense of Europes then do so.

Personally, I try to minimise my purchase of Far Eastern stuff. It's my preference to do so - I think that supporting the economy of firstly the UK and secondly Europe is more constructive to my long term benefit than supporting Chinas economy. But I won't lose too much sleep by buying the odd bit of Far Eastern stuff as long as I've ruled out European options first. The new lightweight wheels I am going to build for my Look will be mostly Far Eastern as equivalent components simply made in the West. I buy commuting jerseys from Aldi because I like to reserve the flashy kit for the weekend.

Increasingly manufacturing is returning to the UK so I think it is worth making an effort to encourage this.

This. For me it's as much the long-term impact of buying abroad in the first place as it is the ethics of where you buy cheap foreign stuff from.

rodgers73

If the predictions for China's economy are in any way accurate its heading for an almighty crash due to the gigantic levels of bank lending it indulged in over the last 3 years, that dwarfs the US mortgage market pre-2008/9.

That might solve this problem in the longer term...or possibly lead to WWIII

mambo1

Some years back I purchased a US designed hi-fi amplifier a DK VS1, it was the first one sold. It was manufactured in China and cost me $3,000. At the time, this model caused a huge stir in hi-fi circles as the performance was incredible at the price point. It was the equivalent of anything available then up to $10k.

A lot of the talk on the US based hi-fi forums (especially audiogon) was centered around the ethics of it being Chinese manufactured. Many of the US forum members insisted that they would buy one if only they were made in the USA blah, blah blah. Finally, the owner of the company posted that he would happily manufacture in the US if there were demand for them to be manufactured there however they would cost $7,000.00. He was applauded for this amidst numerous comments of "I will definitely order" type and he duly opened his order book.

He didn't receive a single order at that price!

whenever reading threads of this type, I bear in mind that what people say they do may have nothing too do with what they actually do in real life.

I am currently founding my own brand of hand-made custom frames that will be completely manufactured in Italy. I will be making them available at a price point that will compete with middle to high end Asian made mass produced frames that they will out perform on every level. One of the problems I will have is convincing potential customers that they are not Chinese re-badged imports at that price! I am even considering getting a notary public to certify that they are indeed manufactured in Italy and posting that certificate on the website. This will be my little contribution to manufacturing and keeping as much money as possible in in the West.

Monty Dog

I buy titanium frames directly from China and they cost me in the region of £500. The same factory make frames for many big brands and they retail for £2000 with their "Made in USA" stickers. There are some Made in UK brands who sub-contract production to Xiamen in China as the skills simply do not exist in the UK. Do you consistently apply your own principles to Western-branded products made in China?

pinno

Mercia Man wrote:

Like everyone on this forum, I love a bargain and much of my cycling stuff comes from China.

But I've become increasingly uneasy about doing so because of China's bad record on issues including human rights, industrial pollution, domination of Tibet, cyber attacks on businesses, the continued decimation of Elephant in Africa for Ivory and procurement of Rhino horn and Tiger Bones and the way in which its good value products are harming manufacturers, including cycle companies, in countries like the UK, France and Italy, which behave in a much more responsible manner towards their workers and the environment. Also, the complete elimination of the fresh water dolphin when they built the 3 Gorges dam.

Should we as cyclists simply buy the best and cheapest bikes and gear regardless of manufacturing location?

FTFY

It's so difficult. I was in Argos buying a kettle and I asked the cashier where it was made. I got the most dumbfounded look. All products should bear the place in which it was originally manufactured.
The problem, is that whilst a few may make an informed choice, the rest of the British population have an insatiable and destructive appetite for cheap goods rendering our choice futile.

BTW, my 3 bikes are as follows.

Wilier - Made in Italy Made in Italy Made in Italy
Pinarello - Galileo 2007, before they switched the production to the far east.
C40 - Italian through and through.

...and of course, all clad in Campagnolo (at least if not made in Italy, made in the EU).

rolf_f

Monty Dog wrote:

I buy titanium frames directly from China and they cost me in the region of £500. The same factory make frames for many big brands and they retail for £2000 with their "Made in USA" stickers. There are some Made in UK brands who sub-contract production to Xiamen in China as the skills simply do not exist in the UK. Do you consistently apply your own principles to Western-branded products made in China?

That's obviously worse. Nobody with an informed conscience would I think buy Nike for example. As I see it, if you have a conscience about this sort of thing then just do your best. And if it turns out your favourite brand is as exploitative as, for example, Apple, then you just switch to someone else and hope that eventually, you end up using relatively ethical sources.

mm1 wrote:

A test might be to ask, are the people who made this stuff able to use it? Are they paid enough, do they have enough (or any) leisure time and do they inhabit an environment that allows them to enjoy that use (oh dear, I've used the enjoy word again). If the answers are no, and there is no prospect that the trading of these goods will lead to a situation where the answers become yes, then there may be some matters for your conscience to decide?

I'd better not buy myself that Rolls Royce I promised myself then!

The problem here (if it is a problem) is that the unaffordability of goods made in the second world to those that make them is the very reason why, for example, electrical goods are so excessively cheap for us and why they are made there in the first place. The whole retail economy is based on a model whereby products for the first world are made by those of the second world.

mercia_man

I think Rolf speaks a lot of sense on this. It's not a clear cut issue and it would be impossible for us never to buy Chinese-made stuff. But anyone with a conscience, who thinks beyond simply getting the cheapest bargain, would surely be critical of the way in which China behaves.

I do find it sad when British, European, American and New Zealand companies switch production from their home countries to China, benefiting from the ethical and environment friendly image of their previous incarnations, and charging considerably more than you would pay if you bought direct from China. In a way, it's a con on the public, as Monty Dog says. But that's the modern system on which the worldwide economy is based.

It's good to see the revival of artisan frame-building in Britain, the US and Europe. And I'm glad that companies like Colnago, Look and Time still build some or all of their frames themselves rather than outsourcing to eastern factories. Small companies like Legend prove Italy has the skills to make custom carbon frames easily as good or better than big name Chinese built models. I wish mambo1 every success in developing his new business. And there's still a lot of cycle clothing being made in Europe.

So it's not all doom and gloom although it's clear that the mass market for bikes and gear is being largely taken over by China.

For my part, I try to buy cycling stuff made in Britain, Europe and the USA and am willing to pay a bit extra for it. But that doesn't mean I will never buy anything made in China. For example, I've got some Archetype wheels on order from The Cycle Clinic (although they are coming with White Industries hubs).

It's been good to read people's comments. And I'm glad that some forum users have the same sort of ethical qualms as me about buying Chinese.

BillyMansell

I'm afraid all I see her is an unethical approach of the use of something called ethics possibly for some other justification.

You'v created what you call a set of ethics by which to judge a communist country yet I don't see this same set of ethics being applied with similar rigour to western countries who, by virtue of supposedly being free countries, we should expect higher standards from.

Where is the ethical test for US and UK cyber attacks and the control the NSA and GCHQ have given themselves through hardware and software as well as across the internet? Where is the ethical test for US and UK human rights where we see people being unlawfully detained, people being detained without trial, the use of secret trials and the mass surveillance of innocent people? Where is the ethical test for UK workers who are forced by the government to accept low pay or no pay jobs including in the private sector?

Don't buy Chinese goods if you don't want to but please don't try to suggest that there is some ethical or moral superiority which makes buying goods outside of China wholly virtuous. We are far from perfect.

mercia_man

You are quite right, Billy. There's lots of bad behaviour by the UK and USA. But I think China is worse.

I'm not looking for moral superiority. I'm trying to buy stuff from people who behave well.

For example, I'm a fell runner and try to buy running shoes and outdoor gear from High Sports in Shrewsbury because they sponsor local races in which I compete. I could, of course, buy everything from Sports Direct with its zero hours contracts. But I believe in supporting a local company which puts money back into a sport which I enjoy.

BrandonA

Mercia Man wrote:

Like everyone on this forum, I love a bargain and much of my cycling stuff comes from China.

But I've become increasingly uneasy about doing so because of China's bad record on issues including human rights, industrial pollution, domination of Tibet, cyber attacks on businesses and the way in which its good value products are harming manufacturers, including cycle companies, in countries like the UK, France and Italy, which behave in a much more responsible manner towards their workers and the environment.

Should we as cyclists simply buy the best and cheapest bikes and gear regardless of manufacturing location?

As long as you are buying genuine items and not counterfeits then I don't see a problem with what you are doing. If you are buying fake items then I have little respect for your purchasing habits regardless of the country they come from.

Personally though I can't be bothered with the hassle of importing from outside of the EU.

I think if you can save a few quid on genuine items by shopping from a different country then fair play. It annoys me living in the UK how much extra we pay for stuff.

pinno

BillyMansell wrote:

I'm afraid all I see her is an unethical approach of the use of something called ethics possibly for some other justification.

You'v created what you call a set of ethics by which to judge a communist country yet I don't see this same set of ethics being applied with similar rigour to western countries who, by virtue of supposedly being free countries, we should expect higher standards from.

Where is the ethical test for US and UK cyber attacks and the control the NSA and GCHQ have given themselves through hardware and software as well as across the internet? Where is the ethical test for US and UK human rights where we see people being unlawfully detained, people being detained without trial, the use of secret trials and the mass surveillance of innocent people? Where is the ethical test for UK workers who are forced by the government to accept low pay or no pay jobs including in the private sector?

Don't buy Chinese goods if you don't want to but please don't try to suggest that there is some ethical or moral superiority which makes buying goods outside of China wholly virtuous. We are far from perfect.

There is a fundamental difference in Europe and the UK: We have a right to freedom of speech. There are mechanisms to exercise your opinion and mechanisms to represent your opinion. There are quite a number of people within the UK and in Europe who are opposed to the unlawful detention of persons. We could not have this conversation on a forum in China so easily and so openly.
You have the right to wear a sandwich board and march through London protesting about human right abuses. You cannot do that in China.
We are all guilty of the exploitation of resources but the Chinese take it to a different level, even to the extent of keeping despotic megalomaniacs happy in Africa so that they get exactly what they want; people like Mugabe et al.

I honestly believe that the Chinese population are being fed on a diet of propaganda and have no conception of the wider picture or international concerns. Therein lies another difference - we have a free press.

Sprool

If you are really worried about supporting China's issues with pollution, human rights, etc. then you are going to find it pretty difficult to buy much these days, China has a hand in such a wide sweeping range of raw materials, processed goods and manufactured items because people want to pay less for stuff. If you find something that hasn't had some influence from Chinese manufacturers or suppliers somewhere along the line, then you are depriving the infrastructure, the managers, the workers and the secretaries over there of a legitimate salary, even though it is below what we win the west see as the average.

BillyMansell

pinarello001 wrote:

BillyMansell wrote:

I'm afraid all I see her is an unethical approach of the use of something called ethics possibly for some other justification.

You'v created what you call a set of ethics by which to judge a communist country yet I don't see this same set of ethics being applied with similar rigour to western countries who, by virtue of supposedly being free countries, we should expect higher standards from.

Where is the ethical test for US and UK cyber attacks and the control the NSA and GCHQ have given themselves through hardware and software as well as across the internet? Where is the ethical test for US and UK human rights where we see people being unlawfully detained, people being detained without trial, the use of secret trials and the mass surveillance of innocent people? Where is the ethical test for UK workers who are forced by the government to accept low pay or no pay jobs including in the private sector?

Don't buy Chinese goods if you don't want to but please don't try to suggest that there is some ethical or moral superiority which makes buying goods outside of China wholly virtuous. We are far from perfect.

There is a fundamental difference in Europe and the UK: We have a right to freedom of speech. There are mechanisms to exercise your opinion and mechanisms to represent your opinion. There are quite a number of people within the UK and in Europe who are opposed to the unlawful detention of persons. We could not have this conversation on a forum in China so easily and so openly.
You have the right to wear a sandwich board and march through London protesting about human right abuses. You cannot do that in China.
We are all guilty of the exploitation of resources but the Chinese take it to a different level, even to the extent of keeping despotic megalomaniacs happy in Africa so that they get exactly what they want; people like Mugabe et al.

I honestly believe that the Chinese population are being fed on a diet of propaganda and have no conception of the wider picture or international concerns. Therein lies another difference - we have a free press.

Coming from a research background, when someone starts comparing countries by tests such as their ethics then I'm interested in understanding whether the test has been rigorously applied to all countries.

I don't need emotionally charged words and phrases against China to know they are different from the west and I know that from the outset we are not comparing like with like so when we talk about ethics between countries it would be unethical to simply measure any country against our own cultural bias. China doesn't proclaim to be ethically superior to the west but the west does proclaim to be ethically superior to China, and I think those of us that have spoken about greater freedoms in the west acknowledge that, so it is for those who proclaim greater moral/ethical superiority to prove so.

Therefore to test the ethics of any country you do need a standardised set of questions but the questions have to be asked of the ethics they set themselves. The greater the degree of separation from their own ethics the more unethical they are, which is a much more objective and a less hyperbolic approach.

As for maintaining despotic leaders, yep we've done that and have even invited them into our country (General Pinochet anyone?) and we still do. As for freedom of the press; secret courts, smashed Guardian hard drives and police unlawfully having bloggers remove information from blogs that upset the political elite. We are also very good at creating propaganda against other countries as justification for barbaric acts - WMDs in 45 minutes anyone?

Like many I don't have high ethical expectations of China whereas I do of the west as it's what they espouse to us, yet in terms of applying a standarduised test of ethics against the standards each country proclaims to set itself, who will have achieved the greater degree of separation from the standard of ethics they espouse to their people?

Druidor

Most mass produced products are farmed out to countries where there is an abundance of cheap labour, be it China, India or any other country.

If you look at the majority of products in the highstreet especially clothing it will be either India or China. Stopping purchasing from one specific region on ethical grounds will only move production to another which in the long run would be detrimental to those in the country you are trying to support.

Take rice & Wheat as another products, it is mass produced in India but 90+% of it is exported to cater for the global market yet as a staple food it is heavily subsidised and controlled by the Indian government so that those poorer families are able to buy it just to eat. even though, they have stockpiles of it rotting in warehouses. & the poorer populace suffers malnutrition related illnesses.

Ethic' are a double edged sword imo.

If enough take an ethical stand on one thing then, those at the end of the chain are the ones that will suffer the worst & not the ones that the ethical people think about when they started.

meagain

I can't think of any state that one could substitute for "China" in the subject line that wouldn't raise the issue of "ethics" to a greater or lesser extent. It's called global (feudal) capitalism and one either attempts to oppose it (in admittedly small ways) or not.

My daughter worked in an industrial part of China for 2 years. Her view is that yes conditions are bad BUT very probably better than would be were there no "western" markets for Chinese goods.

Stalin

I try to avoid buying anything from China or America. But I think Apple had my I - Pad made in China.

pinno

BillyMansell wrote:

pinarello001 wrote:

BillyMansell wrote:

I'm afraid all...

Don't buy Chinese goods if you don't want to but please don't try to suggest that there is some ethical or moral superiority which makes buying goods outside of China wholly virtuous. We are far from perfect.

There is a fundamenta...we have a free press.

Coming from...

...they espouse to their people?

You can say what you like. You can talk about moral relativism which, I agree, is flawed but my family has been involved in conservation for years. We are witnessing the wholesale slaughter of Elephant to an extent not seen since the 1970's. All because Ivory is considered an investment in China and the vast majority goes there.
This is not simply the culling of animals for greed. The money is being used for the purchase of arms, drugs and for human trafficking. It is funding minor wars across Africa from Nigeria to Sudan.
There is another market for Rhino horn, most of it is in Taiwan. Despite the invention of Viagra, they think Rhino horn will give them extra virility. It's just hair. Rhino horn is fetching $60k Dollars per kg. The poachers are flying in by helicopter to hack the horns out of often live animals and even 4rsehole white mercenaries are getting in on the act just because some overweight fat businessman thinks he's going to get better stiffies. It is obscene.

Although I have espoused the freedoms we have in the West, when it comes to the crunch, human beings have been notoriously un-ethical, that won't change but I care very much about wildlife exploitation that is also linked to wars, smuggling and the general exploitation of others.