road tubeless, worth it?

hypster

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Oh dear, here he comes again with the spraying mate...

Sometimes punctures are just too big... shxt happens, not worth insisting... fit an inner tube and off you go... chances are the tyre needed to be booted anyway. Nobody is saying they will seal everything... they did seal this, which was quite big

Oh dear, and here you go again talking about road tubelesss tyres when you are not even running them!! On top of all that you are not even using tyres which are designed to be run tubeless. Jesus, if anyone's a scratched record you are mate.

ugo.santalucia

hypster wrote:

Oh dear, and here you go again talking about road tubelesss tyres when you are not even running them!! On top of all that you are not even using tyres which are designed to be run tubeless. Jesus, if anyone's a scratched record you are mate.

It doesn't change a thing... the procedure, the ups and the downs are the same... actually I have more downs as my tyre can come off the rim potentially as it's not a tight fit, the trade off is easier to fit (but more difficult to seal). What people are worried about is the hassle and the faff... I get all of that and it's minimal. Some are worried about the system not working... it works well and if it works on a tyre that is not supposed to work (in Vittoria's own words) it can only work better on a tyre that is actually meant to.
If I was using road tyres, I would use tubeless ones, for a number of reasons I no longer use road tyres.
One drawback I can see is that there seems to be still a lot of confusion about tyres... meaning Schwalbe sell the same model tubeless and not and it's difficult to understand which one is which, same for Hutchinson. Some LBS don't know the technology yet, which can be a drawback for the less mechanically minded.
Moral is: if you know how to fit a tyre and you are not ham fisted, have a go, there are worse ways to spend money, that's for sure... if you can't, then stick to what you know, more chances of finding someone on the road who can fix a puncture for you

How Far is too Far

Surely the higher the pressure would give a great seal against the rim? meaning tubeless is better suited to road use than MTB.

I have used tubeless on MTB,s a while ago without any problems, I have yet to try it on road wheels yet but.

If you have a tubeless wheel and a tubeless tyre why do you need sealant it? or is it just to protect if you get a puncture?

ugo.santalucia

How Far is too Far wrote:

Surely the higher the pressure would give a great seal against the rim? meaning tubeless is better suited to road use than MTB.

I have used tubeless on MTB,s a while ago without any problems, I have yet to try it on road wheels yet but.

If you have a tubeless wheel and a tubeless tyre why do you need sealant it? or is it just to protect if you get a puncture?

You can run it without, but I fear the pressure won't stay up for long... car tyres run at 30 PSI, not sure they would hold the pressure if it was 60-90 PSI

drlodge

Sealant is applied to car tyres when they fit them i.e. at the tyre/rim interface.

hypster

drlodge wrote:

Sealant is applied to car tyres when they fit them i.e. at the tyre/rim interface.

Is that a sealant or just a lubricant to allow the tyres to locate themselves on the rim when inflated? I always thought it was just soap.

drlodge

hypster wrote:

drlodge wrote:

Sealant is applied to car tyres when they fit them i.e. at the tyre/rim interface.

Is that a sealant or just a lubricant to allow the tyres to locate themselves on the rim when inflated? I always thought it was just soap.

Lubricant or sealant...semantics I think. The tyre will certainly benefit from lubricating to get it to move onto the rim edge, but it also causes a seal. Have you heard a machine taking a tyre off? There's quite a pop when the seal is broken.

davidof

here's my fitting video if anyone is interested, it should help explain a lot of questions

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkEB2sPae3s

hypster

drlodge wrote:

hypster wrote:

drlodge wrote:

Sealant is applied to car tyres when they fit them i.e. at the tyre/rim interface.

Is that a sealant or just a lubricant to allow the tyres to locate themselves on the rim when inflated? I always thought it was just soap.

Lubricant or sealant...semantics I think. The tyre will certainly benefit from lubricating to get it to move onto the rim edge, but it also causes a seal. Have you heard a machine taking a tyre off? There's quite a pop when the seal is broken.

Whatever. Getting back to cycle road tubeless I think a lot of people recommend using lubricant on the bead to allow it to seat more easily. From the Stans NoTubes website:

After the tire is mounted soap both sides of the tire and beads with soap suds. This lubrication will make inflating and sealing easier.

MartinB2444

Got 2 way fit Fulcrum racing zeros on summer bike with 23mm Hutchinson Fusion 3s. 1st set lasted a little over 2000 miles. Now on second pair. no problems. Winter bike wheels not tubeless so Continental GP4000 4 season. One pinch puncture otherwise no problems.

Overall, given the choice I would go for tubeless, nice not to have the hassle of carting around an inner tube, but not worth getting up a head of steam either way.

6wheels

Apparently, quite a few people need access to a compressor to get them to inflate! :shock:

ugo.santalucia

6wheels wrote:

Apparently, quite a few people need access to a compressor to get them to inflate! :shock:

Only if you use non tubeless tyres or non tubeless ready rims... it's more a MTB/CX thing

stanthomas

ugo.santalucia wrote:

How Far is too Far wrote:

...
If you have a tubeless wheel and a tubeless tyre why do you need sealant it? or is it just to protect if you get a puncture?

You can run it without, but I fear the pressure won't stay up for long... car tyres run at 30 PSI, not sure they would hold the pressure if it was 60-90 PSI

I run without sealant in the summer. Hutchinson Fusion t/l on Easton EA90RT, i.e. a full tubeless setup. I've always got home without noticing a problem but the tyre has gone soft overnight and sure enough there's a hawthorn poking thru. So exactly the same experience as tubeless car tyres. Using sealant (winter) I don't notice anything until I clean the bike and spot the end of the thorn in the tyre.

As an aside, I would mention that my Transit didn't come with a spare wheel, it has a bottle of sealant and a 12v compressor.

ugo.santalucia

stanthomas wrote:

As an aside, I would mention that my Transit didn't come with a spare wheel, it has a bottle of sealant and a 12v compressor.

That's the new trend and predictably people hate them and would prefer a spare tyre, even if half of them would never even consider changing a tyre at the side of the road... :roll:

hypster

stanthomas wrote:

I run without sealant in the summer. Hutchinson Fusion t/l on Easton EA90RT, i.e. a full tubeless setup. I've always got home without noticing a problem but the tyre has gone soft overnight and sure enough there's a hawthorn poking thru. So exactly the same experience as tubeless car tyres. Using sealant (winter) I don't notice anything until I clean the bike and spot the end of the thorn in the tyre.

As an aside, I would mention that my Transit didn't come with a spare wheel, it has a bottle of sealant and a 12v compressor.

When you get a puncture running without sealant what do you do for the following ride, patch the tyre? Genuinely interested.

stanthomas

hypster wrote:

When you get a puncture running without sealant what do you do for the following ride, patch the tyre? Genuinely interested.

I patch the tyre on the inside using essentially the same method, patches and rubber solution as I would for an inner tube. The only difference being I put three layers of rubber solution down because the inside of the tyre is a little uneven. I patch all tyres that have been punctured, whether running with sealant or not. It's a permanent fix; I have not encountered any problem with patch adhesion or loss of air.

Hutchinson sell a repair kit comprising patches and a flexible super-glue type adhesive which is also claimed to work as a 'get you home' by injecting the glue thru the hole from the outside.

term1te

stanthomas wrote:

hypster wrote:

When you get a puncture running without sealant what do you do for the following ride, patch the tyre? Genuinely interested.

I patch the tyre on the inside using essentially the same method, patches and rubber solution as I would for an inner tube. The only difference being I put three layers of rubber solution down because the inside of the tyre is a little uneven. I patch all tyres that have been punctured, whether running with sealant or not. It's a permanent fix; I have not encountered any problem with patch adhesion or loss of air.

Hutchinson sell a repair kit comprising patches and a flexible super-glue type adhesive which is also claimed to work as a 'get you home' by injecting the glue thru the hole from the outside.

+1 This is what I do, regular puncture repair kit on the inside of the tubeless tyre. The key is to make sure you have cleaned the area to be patched, and that it is completely dry from any of the sealant.

careful

Those of you who use sealant, I have heard of problems with it gunging up the valves; is this true, does it happen?

ugo.santalucia

careful wrote:

Those of you who use sealant, I have heard of problems with it gunging up the valves; is this true, does it happen?

Not happened yet. Don't store the wheels valve down for long periods would be my advice

bikingjohn

As a matter of fact, I've tried to use tubeless tires on 3 non-tubeless specific wheelsets with success: Campy Bullet Ultra 50, Mavic Ksyrium Elite S and Shimano RS81-C35 (two layers of yellow tape). Used the same pair of Schwalbe Ultremo ZX Tubeless 23mm with Stan's sealant. I enjoyed the lower tire pressure (85 front 95 rear) and punture free rides.

But the current generation of the tubeless tires are quite heavy when comparing with clinchers with the whole system.
Tubeless Tire + sealant = 330g;
Clincher Tire + inner tube = 270g.
Remember the weight difference is rotating mass at the rim...

I guess tubeless has merits that many people will treasure, but clincher is still very manageable. No point to argue which one is ultimately better, just get what you need (or want).

stanthomas

Last year I weighed my wheels to put a number on this issue. These are ready to go* and include o/e skewers and Ultegra cassette. No sealant in either case.

Ksyrium ES, Continental 4000S, Michelin latex tube: 995(f) + 1460(r) = 2455g

Easton EA90RT, Hutchinson Fusion t/l, valve: 1060(f) + 1490(r) = 2550g

So there is a weight penalty for tubeless - about an inner tube's worth. And it is reasonable to assume that a good part of this sits out at the rim.

This is where we revisit the subject of wheel weight...
Rim/tyre mass will affect acceleration and if you are an attacking rider this might be important to you. If you are like me and wind your way up the hill at a steady pace then what matters is the total you have to drag to the top. By carrying one spare tube instead of two I'm at least even on the game. And I am convinced that the smoother ride, better grip and lower rolling resistance makes for a faster time in an event like the Marmotte (let you know in a month).

*not precision scales; the differences appear to be about right but don't use them as absolute values.
Schwalbe Ultremo t/l come in about 30g less per wheel but I prefer the Fusions.

davidof

Quick update on my tubeless experience. Swapped the rear tire today. The 23mm Schwalbe Ultremo had done something in the 3000/3500km range since last summer but no winter miles. It was down the canvas in a number of spots. The sealant was still liquid in the tire (would be a messy job to fix a puncture on the road but I didn't have any in the 3000km of riding). I've replaced it with a Schwalbe One 25mm tubeless. I paid 35 euros for the tire from bike24.de. The new tire was easier to fit (maybe due to it being 25mm?) and is a true 25mm on the Ultegra rims. Front tire is still going strong. Swap took me about 2 minutes. Again just inflated with track pump.

25mm Schwalbe One weighs 320 grammes - so not the lightest tire, they've got heavier but hopefully have a bit more rubber.

I don't have removable valve stems so just poured sealant into the tire before putting it on the rim.

I maybe hoped to get a few more km from the back tire.

bikingjohn

davidof wrote:

Quick update on my tubeless experience. Swapped the rear tire today. The 23mm Schwalbe Ultremo had done something in the 3000/3500km range since last summer but no winter miles. It was down the canvas in a number of spots. The sealant was still liquid in the tire (would be a messy job to fix a puncture on the road but I didn't have any in the 3000km of riding).

Your Ultremo ZX Tubeless lasted 3500km only!?

I've replaced it with a Schwalbe One 25mm tubeless. I paid 35 euros for the tire from bike24.de. The new tire was easier to fit (maybe due to it being 25mm?) and is a true 25mm on the Ultegra rims. Front tire is still going strong. Swap took me about 2 minutes. Again just inflated with track pump.

25mm Schwalbe One weighs 320 grammes - so not the lightest tire, they've got heavier but hopefully have a bit more rubber.

I don't have removable valve stems so just poured sealant into the tire before putting it on the rim.

I maybe hoped to get a few more km from the back tire.

I'm using 23mm ZX Tubeless front and rear. Would like to try 25mm One Tubeless at the rear. Please keep us posted. Thanks~~~

domgears

ugo.santalucia wrote:

drlodge wrote:

Limited choice of tyres and the fact its not yet proven enough are my reasons, plus I'm not sure if my Ambrosio Excellight rims are tubeless compatible? The "proven" tyres out there, the ones that I've used are all non tubeless AFAIK (Conti GP4000S, Pro4 SC, Vittoria Open CX/Pave). So in order for me to go tubeless I'd need to have (a) a tubeless compatible rim (b) a good tubeless tyre that's proven with right combination of performance/comfort/puncture resistance.

I could go tubeless on my CX bike (Archetype rims are tubeless ready, no?) but I ride it so infrequently I expect topping up the goo would be the downside. The benefit of removing the inner tube and probably changing tyres too is questionable. Much easier to retain the status quo - it works well enough.

How proven you need it to be? It's been around in the car indusrty as far as I remember, it's been around in the bicycle world for years and it's been around for road bikes a few years now too.
Even if you dig very deep in the internet filth, you'll struggle to find many nightmare stories... certainly nothing compared to the nightmare stories about carbon rims that people are somewhat happy to ride.
Yes, there are only 10-12 tyres on the market, but as someone pointed out earlier, that's not necessarily a bad thing, as too much choice becomes a drawback (money wasted in constant "upgrades"; time wasted in endless "which tyre?" debates). Maybe a bit more choice in sizes would be desirable, but they are coming.
If I was still using road tyres, I'd get some, but (and this will annoy Gimpl... ) as we don't have roads as such in the south, I no longer see the point in road tyres...

Hi Ugo,

I have an interest in trying tubeless but as mentioned by others the tires available seem to be very limited, even with extensive googling I can only find a couple of options.

Would you care to elaborate on the 10-12 options that you know of? The best option I have seen so far were Schwalbe Ultremo ZX (If I remember correctly) but I can't find them available for purchase anywhere.

What, in your opinion, would be the best tubeless tyre available?

Dom

davidof

bikingjohn wrote:

Your Ultremo ZX Tubeless lasted 3500km only!?

Yes! I was hoping for more like 5000km, maybe I'm too heavy.

ugo.santalucia

domgears wrote:

Would you care to elaborate on the 10-12 options that you know of? The best option I have seen so far were Schwalbe Ultremo ZX (If I remember correctly) but I can't find them available for purchase anywhere.

What, in your opinion, would be the best tubeless tyre available?

Dom

Hutchinson has a wide range, Schwalbe has a small number, Bontrager has a few, Maxxis and others a bit overpriced.
I don't know... I am waiting to see if Schwalbe sends me a demo of their One Tubeless to test, I'm too poor to buy them..

bikingjohn

davidof wrote:

bikingjohn wrote:

Your Ultremo ZX Tubeless lasted 3500km only!?

Yes! I was hoping for more like 5000km, maybe I'm too heavy.

Mine has 1000km and still looks like new. The center mold line is still there!

What tire pressure do you usually use and how heavy are you (if you dun mind.._)?

I'm 160lbs and use 85 f/r 95psi...

davidof

I'm 78kg and usually put in 95 to 100 psi.

defride

domgears wrote:

Hi Ugo,

I have an interest in trying tubeless but as mentioned by others the tires available seem to be very limited, even with extensive googling I can only find a couple of options.

Would you care to elaborate on the 10-12 options that you know of? The best option I have seen so far were Schwalbe Ultremo ZX (If I remember correctly) but I can't find them available for purchase anywhere.

What, in your opinion, would be the best tubeless tyre available?

Dom

Hi Dom, I've tried Ultremo 23, One 23 and Hutcheson Atom 23.

The Atom is very narrow compared to the Schwables and appears to me a harder compound, not as grippy or supple as the Ultremo but still pretty good. I liked the Ultremo, grippy and noticeably comfortable to ride at 80-90psi. Downside is they cut up quite readily and I've punctured a couple of times requiring a tube to get home. Not a big issue as they go on and off reasonably easily.

I changed to One's recently and they're a significant step up across the board, even grippier, rolling resistance seems better and whats more they're far more resistant to cuts. Really like them but they are expensive.

Hope that helps a little

domgears

Hi Defride,

Thanks for the update, I also note your earlier post about the weights of them, this is my other concern, I am likely to be getting some AX Lightness Ultra 28 Clinchers, they are only 1060g, I have a sneaky suspicion that the additional weight may well be noticed on such light rims.

Currently I am using GP4000sII with supersonic tubes (just 45g per tube) on Fulcrum Racing Zeros and they give a nice feel, I have never tried Schwalbe so am not sure how the feel and durability would differ.