road tubeless, worth it?

dempsey1

As above, opinions appreciated

StillGoing

Don't know about tubeless, but I use tubs everywhere. Not had one puncture since I made the move and the ride is far smoother. Will have to resort back to clinchers in the rain though as carbon really doesn't give sufficient braking when wet.

jonny_trousers

There's been plenty of recent discussion on this subject. Just check the recent history here and on Road Buying Advice.

stanthomas

Discussed recently in these topics:
http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=40004&t=12965258
http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=40042&t=12966545
(and possibly others)

The upshot seems to be that those who use road tubeless are totally sold and would never want to ride anything else. Those who don't and, in many cases, have never even tried, see no advantage.

hypster

Funnily enough I just read this thread on RoadBikeReview:

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/wheels ... 23975.html

If you're the sort of person who simply MUST use race tyres all the time then tubeless might be the answer. For me, I use training tyres most of the year with a puncture protection layer (Bontrager Race Lite Hardcase) and have had one puncture in over five years use. I also appreciate the Michelin Pro 4s more when I switch in the drier weather for various sportives.

Tubeless tyres just don't add up for me and the RBR thread just highlights another couple of negatives to add to my ever growing list of reasons not to bother with tubeless.

stanthomas

And here's a case in point - I don't use road tubeless but I've read somewhere that someone had an unsatisfactory experience.
The guy on roadbikereview seems to be complaining that 1) he had to top up the sealant from time to time. Well I have to clean and oil my chain but that doesn't stop me using chains; 2) some really nasty holes didn't seal up readily and 3) he couldn't be bothered sticking a patch (it's just like patching a tube) over them. Now I don't ride around the mean, broken bottle strewn streets of London, nor do I ride round builders yards, but I do ride lots of country lanes after Eddie Grundy has been cutting hedges. And GatorSkins are no match for armour-piercing hawthorn.

If you have tubeless-ready wheels, grab some Hutchinson Fusions and feel the wow factor. Plenty of folk on here that can advise on fitting, tyre pressure, sealant.

MartinB2444

If tubeless had come first and someone was introducing inner tubed clinchers I don't think there would be many takers.

dempsey1

Cheers. I, ve used tubeless off road for years. Tempted to do the same on the tarmac!

ugo.santalucia

Why not... the only real downside is if you have one set of wheel and want to use many sets of tyres... then it becomes a chore... otherwise there are virtually no drawbacks, except maybe the limited choice and slightly higher price

davidof

I switched to Schwalbe Ultremos last year - 60 euros the pair. If I can afford it I won't go back but I have another bike with inner tubes for grotty roads and winter rides.

hypster

ugo.santalucia wrote:

otherwise there are virtually no drawbacks

LOL!

ugo.santalucia

hypster wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

otherwise there are virtually no drawbacks

LOL!

You see, being scared and against something new without knowing it, is a bit like being scared of immigration... instead of looking at the greater picture and how EU immigration over the past 2 decades has lifted this country from the middle ages boghole it was before to a place where you have access to decent food, taps that run both hot & cold water and power showers, one ends up pointing at that tiny minority of benefit seekers you heard about on the tabloids... just saying...

gimpl

ugo.santalucia wrote:

hypster wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

otherwise there are virtually no drawbacks

LOL!

You see, being scared and against something new without knowing it, is a bit like being scared of immigration... instead of looking at the greater picture and how EU immigration over the past 2 decades has lifted this country from the middle ages boghole it was before to a place where you have access to decent food, taps that run both hot & cold water and power showers, one ends up pointing at that tiny minority of benefit seekers you heard about on the tabloids... just saying...

Your rather warped political ramblings really do you no service at all.

ugo.santalucia

Gimpl wrote:

Your rather warped political ramblings really do you no service at all.

Are you against tubeless or against EU immigration?

drlodge

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Why not... the only real downside is if you have one set of wheel and want to use many sets of tyres... then it becomes a chore... otherwise there are virtually no drawbacks, except maybe the limited choice and slightly higher price

Limited choice of tyres and the fact its not yet proven enough are my reasons, plus I'm not sure if my Ambrosio Excellight rims are tubeless compatible? The "proven" tyres out there, the ones that I've used are all non tubeless AFAIK (Conti GP4000S, Pro4 SC, Vittoria Open CX/Pave). So in order for me to go tubeless I'd need to have (a) a tubeless compatible rim (b) a good tubeless tyre that's proven with right combination of performance/comfort/puncture resistance.

I could go tubeless on my CX bike (Archetype rims are tubeless ready, no?) but I ride it so infrequently I expect topping up the goo would be the downside. The benefit of removing the inner tube and probably changing tyres too is questionable. Much easier to retain the status quo - it works well enough.

gimpl

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Gimpl wrote:

Your rather warped political ramblings really do you no service at all.

Are you against tubeless or against EU immigration?

Neither - just your ramblings.

ugo.santalucia

drlodge wrote:

Limited choice of tyres and the fact its not yet proven enough are my reasons, plus I'm not sure if my Ambrosio Excellight rims are tubeless compatible? The "proven" tyres out there, the ones that I've used are all non tubeless AFAIK (Conti GP4000S, Pro4 SC, Vittoria Open CX/Pave). So in order for me to go tubeless I'd need to have (a) a tubeless compatible rim (b) a good tubeless tyre that's proven with right combination of performance/comfort/puncture resistance.

I could go tubeless on my CX bike (Archetype rims are tubeless ready, no?) but I ride it so infrequently I expect topping up the goo would be the downside. The benefit of removing the inner tube and probably changing tyres too is questionable. Much easier to retain the status quo - it works well enough.

How proven you need it to be? It's been around in the car indusrty as far as I remember, it's been around in the bicycle world for years and it's been around for road bikes a few years now too.
Even if you dig very deep in the internet filth, you'll struggle to find many nightmare stories... certainly nothing compared to the nightmare stories about carbon rims that people are somewhat happy to ride.
Yes, there are only 10-12 tyres on the market, but as someone pointed out earlier, that's not necessarily a bad thing, as too much choice becomes a drawback (money wasted in constant "upgrades"; time wasted in endless "which tyre?" debates). Maybe a bit more choice in sizes would be desirable, but they are coming.
If I was still using road tyres, I'd get some, but (and this will annoy Gimpl... ) as we don't have roads as such in the south, I no longer see the point in road tyres...

lostboysaint

Last time I checked all three of the motorbikes in my garage run tubeless. And the four cars. And the three mountain bikes.

Not sure what the logic is behind wanting to put tubes in tyres, or - and this always cracks me up - putting sealant in tubes in tyres (Slime, hahahahahaha!). Just throw some sealant in there, pump them up and get riding.

drlodge

I guess proven enough means having confidence tubeless will work at 120psi, considerably more than in other applications. However, since my Excellight rims are not tubeless ready its all somewhat irrelevant for me! Were I to change rims in the future than I may well consider it.

ugo.santalucia

drlodge wrote:

I guess proven enough means having confidence tubeless will work at 120psi, considerably more than in other applications. However, since my Excellight rims are not tubeless ready its all somewhat irrelevant for me! Were I to change rims in the future than I may well consider it.

The point of tubeless is not to have to run 120 PSI! Tubless tyres have been specifically designed for road use at 100+ PSI and they work well. They are a bit tight-fit, but normally you fit them only once in the garage and bin them when they've had it. Some non tubeless tyres are tight fit too and those need to be refitted, sometimes at the side of the road.

drlodge

ugo.santalucia wrote:

drlodge wrote:

I guess proven enough means having confidence tubeless will work at 120psi, considerably more than in other applications. However, since my Excellight rims are not tubeless ready its all somewhat irrelevant for me! Were I to change rims in the future than I may well consider it.

The point of tubeless is not to have to run 120 PSI! Tubless tyres have been specifically designed for road use at 100+ PSI and they work well. They are a bit tight-fit, but normally you fit them only once in the garage and bin them when they've had it. Some non tubeless tyres are tight fit too and those need to be refitted, sometimes at the side of the road.

Thanks for the info...I guess we can have this discussion over a beer if/when I need to replace my Excellight rims

ugo.santalucia

drlodge wrote:

Thanks for the info...I guess we can have this discussion over a beer if/when I need to replace my Excellight rims

The way I see it, it's part of a transformation in the bicycle industry and for a change it's one for the better. Wider rims, bigger tyres, tubeless systems are all for giving a better and safer riding experience. I remember the days of 19 mm tyres, but in Italy we had roads made of silk, here or in USA there isn't the same tarmac, so it's pointless to insist with skinny tyres and high pressure. Too many punctures, sidewall damages, pinch flats, dented rims, crashes all can be avoided using the correct rim/tyre system.
Look at what MTB can do with a wide rim/fat tubeless tyre at low pressure, coming down a rocky path at 30 mph!! if you can get some of that on a road bike without sacrificing the all important speed, what's not to like about it?

djhermer

I reckon drlodge is wavering on this. He can't help get involved in the various discussions and he seems a very sensible chap!

The key point is that it is utterly proven technology. It's nothing new. Since I moved to tubeless on one of my wheelsets, I've been left aghast at how it's taken so long to catch on on road bikes. There are no drawbacks (bar the small choice of tyre). I'm only gutted that my other wheelsets aren't compatible.

drlodge

You're right, I am wavering. If I were getting a set of clincher road wheels made up, I would be having the conversation about going tubeless, BUT I already have a set of wheels that are not compatible so its a mute point.

I think I'm convinced about the tubeless argument as such, but I would want to know what the tyre choices are and how the tyre ride compares to a tubed version like the ones I listed. Hopefully my Excellight rims will last a few more years yet so Ugo won't be getting any more wheel orders from me for some while :shock:

ugo.santalucia

drlodge wrote:

I think I'm convinced about the tubeless argument as such, but I would want to know what the tyre choices are and how the tyre ride compares to a tubed version like the ones I listed. Hopefully my Excellight rims will last a few more years yet so Ugo won't be getting any more wheel orders from me for some while :shock:

If you expect the ride to be dramatically different, then you'll be disappointed. The handling is marginally improved, not dramatically.
In my view there are two key differences and both are very important

1) They are safer: the tyre stays on the rim, no matter what... clinchers roll off once they have lost pressure.

2) The sealant is a pretty powerful way to fix a puncture... I found out it can seal even rather large holes and permanently

hypster

ugo.santalucia wrote:

drlodge wrote:

I think I'm convinced about the tubeless argument as such, but I would want to know what the tyre choices are and how the tyre ride compares to a tubed version like the ones I listed. Hopefully my Excellight rims will last a few more years yet so Ugo won't be getting any more wheel orders from me for some while :shock:

If you expect the ride to be dramatically different, then you'll be disappointed. The handling is marginally improved, not dramatically.
In my view there are two key differences and both are very important

1) They are safer: the tyre stays on the rim, no matter what... clinchers roll off once they have lost pressure.

2) The sealant is a pretty powerful way to fix a puncture... I found out it can seal even rather large holes and permanently

That's because you are running off-road tyres at very low pressure Ugo. If you read the OP in the thread on RoadBikeReview I posted to earlier you will see that with high pressure road tyres, that's not always the case. I have personal experience of this as well because one of the guys I ride with uses tubeless and he sprayed the whole group following him and his own bike with sealant when he got a puncture. It also took over 30 minutes faffing at the side of the road to get the puncture to seal so that we could continue the ride.

Even then he could only put around 50-60 psi in his tyre otherwise the sealant would be forced out by the pressure. To claim that there are virtually no drawbacks with tubeless tyres is just nonsense in my book, the drawbacks are well documented and obvious.

drlodge

Indeed, I am sceptical as to how well sealant would seal a punctured road tyre at 100 psi+

maddog 2

The upshot seems to be that those who use road tubeless are totally sold and would never want to ride anything else. Those who don't and, in many cases, have never even tried, see no advantage.

+1

The general consensus seems to be that most of the people who 'can't see the point' haven't actually tried it. So make of that what you will

hypster

maddog 2 wrote:

The upshot seems to be that those who use road tubeless are totally sold and would never want to ride anything else. Those who don't and, in many cases, have never even tried, see no advantage.

+1

The general consensus seems to be that most of the people who 'can't see the point' haven't actually tried it. So make of that what you will

But that's not the case is it? There are people who have tried and and come to the conclusion that there is no tangible advantage and several very glaring disadvantages that the converted seem to gloss over. If you're the sort of person who get punctures regularly and tubeless tyres overcomes that for you then all well and good. I get about one puncture every five years on average and am quite happy with the way my bike rides.

I can't believe the magical claims that some make about how it transforms the ride and in reality that has also been debunked by those who have tried tubeless and gone back. I don't need to fork out several hundred quid to know that tubeless will have very little effect on my cycling experience other than acquainting me with the joys of getting covered in sealant.

ic.

I went road tubeless for a while, about 4 months.

In that time I:
1. walked home 2miles in my socks
2. called the Mrs for an emergency pick up at 18 miles out

Both times it was a hole in the tyre that the sealant didn't fill. After the 1st one I switched sealant and still no joy.

And yes, I did carry a tube so I could fit it in just this type of situation. 1st time I snapped the valve off due to be so damn cold I couldn't feel my hands after struggling to get the tyre off in 3 degrees. 2nd time I snapped 2 tyre levers and just plain gave up after that

I sold them. I'm now back on tyres and tubes and haven't had a puncture since

They were Ultremos on Fulcrum 3 2WayFit.

ugo.santalucia

hypster wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

drlodge wrote:

I think I'm convinced about the tubeless argument as such, but I would want to know what the tyre choices are and how the tyre ride compares to a tubed version like the ones I listed. Hopefully my Excellight rims will last a few more years yet so Ugo won't be getting any more wheel orders from me for some while :shock:

If you expect the ride to be dramatically different, then you'll be disappointed. The handling is marginally improved, not dramatically.
In my view there are two key differences and both are very important

1) They are safer: the tyre stays on the rim, no matter what... clinchers roll off once they have lost pressure.

2) The sealant is a pretty powerful way to fix a puncture... I found out it can seal even rather large holes and permanently

That's because you are running off-road tyres at very low pressure Ugo. If you read the OP in the thread on RoadBikeReview I posted to earlier you will see that with high pressure road tyres, that's not always the case. I have personal experience of this as well because one of the guys I ride with uses tubeless and he sprayed the whole group following him and his own bike with sealant when he got a puncture. It also took over 30 minutes faffing at the side of the road to get the puncture to seal so that we could continue the ride.

Even then he could only put around 50-60 psi in his tyre otherwise the sealant would be forced out by the pressure. To claim that there are virtually no drawbacks with tubeless tyres is just nonsense in my book, the drawbacks are well documented and obvious.

Oh dear, here he comes again with the spraying mate...

Sometimes punctures are just too big... shxt happens, not worth insisting... fit an inner tube and off you go... chances are the tyre needed to be booted anyway. Nobody is saying they will seal everything... they did seal this, which was quite big