Riding standards / accidents

bigmat

Just to shift the discussion from the other thread, eh?

My take on this is that riders even at higher levels sometimes take risks that they shouldn't in road races. There seems to be an expectation that oncoming traffic will at least be controlled in some way. I personally think that's a legitimate expectation - you'd think the last couple of hundred metres of a road race, say, they could hold back oncoming traffic. Sadly, that doesn't always happen - my race on Saturday the sprint (admittedly for minor placings) was a farce as an oncoming car forced a group of maybe 30 into one narrow lane, I banged hips with a teammate and didn't manage to contest the finish at all.

There's a constant pressure to push towards the front but its pretty tricky when the bunch is packed into one lane, and as a not so young father of two I'm not in the business of taking any risks. Makes life pretty difficult if you don't though.

Anyway, just a few random thoughts - people seem up for the discussion so thought it should have its own thread (I haven't even got into the whole "4th cats race like choppers" debate

imposter2.0

It's racing - and on race days even the most level-headed, sensible riders can turn into complete loons. As above, category might play a small part if you are a complete beginner with no group experience, but most racing accidents are down to riders simply taking too many risks. I've done it myself, so I'm certainly not exempt from any of the above.

mamba80

we all get the std talk about don't do this etc etc and then during the race, these things just happen anyhow, maybe a rider or two gets bollocked but everything pretty much stays the same.
But if the comms actually stopped or disbanded the odd race here or there, then maybe the riders would do as they are told.
some car driver are not going to stop, regardless of who is waving what, accredited marshals' may make things even worse, as the expectation is that there def wont be any on coming cars...... quite an assumption really!

Birdthom

I came to bike racing after a few years racing saloon cars in a crazy national series with a bunch of nutters all doorhandling each other at over 100mph into blind bends. Really hairy at times, but great fun. There are massive risks, but you mitigate them where you can.

My first bike races were all circuit races/crits, and I found it a very similar experience to my car racing. Even with the best intentions, if you put a large group of racers together on similar equipment in close proximity there will be contact. I found the circuit racing on bikes great fun. I saw plenty of poor riding - I was guilty of some myself on the odd occasion - but it's enjoyable and while the chances of minor injury are very high the chances of really serious injury are generally low (although recent tragic events do make this assessment questionable). An occasional busted collarbone or concussion are risks I'm willing to accept, not that I ever approach a race with that mindset.

When I did my first road race I was genuinely shocked at the risks involved. It was a pretty big bunch, mostly on the correct side of the road but with the only real way of moving up being to go down the right hand side. There were people hanging themselves out on the wrong side all the time, even approaching fast blind bends. There were quite a few times when the whole bunch had to squeeze in to let these guys back in and avoid them being taken out by an oncoming vehicle, but it just carried on that way. It was midweek, and there were evening rush-hour drivers steaming round blind bends on the wrong side of the road. At one point the bunch came round a narrow bend with high hedges to find an oncoming tractor with a great big plough attachment with huge sharp blades sticking out of the back onto our side of the road. The sprint at the end was spread across both sides of the road. Throughout the race, the chances of riders being taken out by an oncoming vehicle at high speed were ridiculously high. I considered pulling out after a couple of laps but instead I stuck with it to the end, counted my blessings and swore not to race that event again. That was my first and only road race so far. It may have been a one-off bad experience, so I will get out and try another road race elsewhere some time, but I'm not in a hurry and I will be very careful when I do. I don't scare easily at all, but the risks just seemed completely mental to me.

I don't have sufficient knowledge or experience to offer any viable solutions, but the following is the best I can do:

1. If there is a decent-size bunch then the left hand side gets blocked very easily and it is very difficult to avoid using the right hand side of the road. Riders shouldn't stray into the right hand side on a regular basis, but I can understand why they do. If we accept that it is occasionally acceptable and necessary then it become unrealistic to impose an outright ban on going down the right. For any sort of sanction to be imposed by the comms would therefore require a value judgement which isn't going to be very workable.

2. Closed roads would be lovely, but that's not realistic and making it a requirement would kill off amateur road racing.

On that basis, all we can do is probably better warning signage and flagging for other road users, greater use of course cars/outriders and a general sworn code of honour not to hang yourself out to dry on the right hand side unless you have a clear line of sight and space to get back in. That's not really very different from what we have at the moment though.

I'll try a few more road races this season and hopefully my next experiences will be a bit better. If not then I'll stick to circuits and crits.

imposter2.0

^^ good assessment - difficult to disagree with any of that. All I would add is that I took a conscious decision to quit open road racing a couple of years ago and have only ridden crits and circuits since. Partly because I couldn't believe how stupid other riders were being at times - and partly because I couldn't believe how stupid I was being at times either.

Pross

I've pretty much decided to give up road racing and I don't really like closed circuit racing so I've practically retired. It may be rose tinted glasses but when I initially raced in the first half of the 90s I really can't recall riders crossing the centreline, maybe a few did to move up but they would be a foot or two over the line. It could also be that we used to have a maximum of 60 riders in a field with two races running on the same course separated by 10 minutes or so, now you have 80 on busier roads. We obviously used to still get crashes but from memory they were far fewer, now barely a race goes by that I have ridden or watched without there being a crash. I'd like to run two races with 40 in each but then you have to double up on so many expenses that it becomes impractical.

I haven't done much racing since I got back into the sport but there is a race I've done twice up in Hereford now where the risk taking was shocking. On both occassions I was behind the lead car in the neutralised zone and as soon as the flag dropped got swamped by people moving up using the full width of the road completely blind. Last year there were about 5 crashes in the race which were generally attributed to the horrendous potholes. I was in the first after about 5 miles but even before that there'd been a lot of brakes being jammed on as riders pulled back to the correct side to avoid an oncoming car. At no point in that short lived race did I feel safe. The only races I have felt pretty safe in have been vets only which had much smaller fields (around 30).

The best thing for me is I get dropped nice and early so I'm usually pretty safe!

Dark prince

Standard of riding is shocking..these guys rock up with five grand bikes,very fit and look the biz..but their bike handling is dire,no idea how to ride or follow wheels,not keeping a line the list is endless..and at the end of the race they turn into cavendish after causing endless crashes.bring back the proper sporting lumpy courses..breaks it up and safer racing

ongej

I am wondering, perhaps a way to make the race slightly safer is to split or limit races into smaller fields, so if 40 turn up, split the race into 2 separate races of 20 each, but the price to pay for a safer race is a slightly shorter one... so 35-40 minutes each as opposed to 45-1hr each... Another option would be to have multiple 4th cat races in a day, but each limited to a "safe" number (e.g. 15-20 riders max), and each rider can choose which time they would like on the day.

But maybe this way is not financially viable for the organisers, not sure how much it is to use a place like Hillingdon or Preston Park for a race.

DavidJB

Short races = Fresher legs = more accidents in the final few laps. A fast race is a safe race.

ongej

Hmm... won't fresher legs make a fast(er) race? The organisers did point out on simple tracks that a strung out race is a safe race, which I agree.. but unfortunately no one wants to "string out" the race at the last lap, sacrificing himself as a leadout man, esp in cat 4, where lots of people are desperately trying to get out of..

Pross

ongej wrote:

Hmm... won't fresher legs make a fast(er) race? The organisers did point out on simple tracks that a strung out race is a safe race, which I agree.. but unfortunately no one wants to "string out" the race at the last lap, sacrificing himself as a leadout man, esp in cat 4, where lots of people are desperately trying to get out of..

All the more reason for making the move to 3rd cat based on experience and getting signed off as having raced safely. If people aren't desperately chasing 10th place things would be a bit calmer and those without a sprint or not wishing to risk getting involved can safely roll in at the back of the bunch having gained experience.

wallace_and_gromit

I'm relatively new to racing and it strikes me that if you stick 40+ Weekend Warriors in a confined space with the objective of getting to the finish line first then you simply have an inherently dangerous sport. Some sports are inherently more dangerous than others and whilst the rules can be amended and participants educated, risk cannot be eliminated completely.

I don't think anyone rides with the intention of being dangerous to others, as we all know that if we touch wheels, we'll probably go down as well and tarmac at 40kmh is going to hurt - a lot! I find the mano-a-mano duelling aspect of racing one of the most exciting things I've done, and whilst I've lead a fairly sheltered life, I'm regularly still shaking due to adreneline overdoses an hour or two after a race. It can be f***ing scary, though and I expect that I'll give up when I hurt myself too badly or scare myself senseles once too often.

Different people have different perceptions of acceptable risk, and what feels safe to one rider will look incredibly dangerous to others. Criticising people for sprinting for 10th place seems rather bizarre in something billed as a race. I got a 10th place after a final sprint once, and it's the best thing I've ever done on a bike, even better than my one Strava "King". It may well remain the highpoint by the time I hang up my lycra!

There is always TTing for the more nervous or even sportives. And if you're a real cowardy custard, there's always basket weaving.

Birdthom

One solution might be to issue points further down the field but increase the promotion criteria. For instance, require 40 points to get to 3rd cat but issue points 20-1 all the way down to 20th. That would avoid the need for marginal riders to take risks to get to the front and mean that people can get promoted to 3rd cat by rolling around in the top half of the field and doing enough races to pick the points up over a season. It would result in some weak riders getting to 3rd cat, but that's already the case. The upside is that riders would take fewer risks and they would get more experience. It would also make it impossible for someone dangerous to be promoted in their first race just by virtue of being fitter than everyone else.

imposter2.0

I would just remove 4th category altogether and make everyone start on a 'provisional 3rd cat' licence, moving to a full licence once you have achieved (at least) a bunch finish in, say, five (or more) races.

Birdthom

Imposter wrote:

I would just remove 4th category altogether and make everyone start on a 'provisional 3rd cat' licence, moving to a full licence once you have achieved (at least) a bunch finish in, say, five (or more) races.

Doesn't that just make 3rds into bigger races and even more of a crashfest?

Pross

Imposter wrote:

I would just remove 4th category altogether and make everyone start on a 'provisional 3rd cat' licence, moving to a full licence once you have achieved (at least) a bunch finish in, say, five (or more) races.

Nightmare for judges, they'd have to record everyone in the bunch. Just make it something like ride 5 in a season without getting pulled up by the comms for riding unsafely. Any violations and the clock starts again. You could even have a system to allow other riders to report bad riding and if a certain number cite a particular rider it counts as a sanction.

Lookyhere

the whole 4th cat thing makes racing dangerous, everyone wants to be a 3rd and will do anything to get out of 4th.
also, its the blind leading the blind, 4ths are on the whole inexperienced, so there is no one in the bunch to show them good practice, these guys then progress into 3rd and beyond and still ride badly, unfortunately, the rider/s switching around, wont be the one crashing, so they might never really learn.
For me, the only way forward is a minimum 10 races, plus rider training, say attend 3 x 2hr sessions, no pts and then a provisional 3rd, which can be withdrawn.
I think someone said riders know crashing at 40k hurts...no they don't, for most its a theoretical knowledge only.

Of course non of this will happen, because BC want numbers and more licence holders not less, their response is going to launch a safe rider area of the website......wow !
but should there be more serious injuries/deaths, then RR will end up being confined to closed cct only, there is tremendous pressure on roads and the authorities will take any excuse to ban it.
So far down here, almost every race ran this year has had incident.

I also agree that racing is inherently dangerous, due in the main the complete lack of protective clothing.

ongej

Birdthom wrote:

One solution might be to issue points further down the field but increase the promotion criteria. For instance, require 40 points to get to 3rd cat but issue points 20-1 all the way down to 20th. That would avoid the need for marginal riders to take risks to get to the front and mean that people can get promoted to 3rd cat by rolling around in the top half of the field and doing enough races to pick the points up over a season. It would result in some weak riders getting to 3rd cat, but that's already the case. The upside is that riders would take fewer risks and they would get more experience. It would also make it impossible for someone dangerous to be promoted in their first race just by virtue of being fitter than everyone else.

I like this solution the best, as it would mean the current system is only tweaked as opposed to overhauled.. and it would take the desperation out of the riders for participating in the bunch sprint every single time (resulting in 30+ sprinting riders that have little experience sprinting in close proximity with other riders)... and eventually all riders that are persistent enough will upgrade to 3rd cat. I think the desperation to upgrade from 4 to 3 is not only to do with ego, but the fact that there are a lot more options/places (esp on the road) in 3rd cat than 4th cat...

Dark prince

Just make the finish an uphill slog or more effective is to put more hilly races on that soon breaks the 3/4 wheel suckers up

DeVlaeminck

I think bunch size makes a big difference. 40 is safer than 80. Ironically some modern safety measures such as NEG, some races insisting on a paramedic cover etc means costs require a bigger field to run a race without charging £25 plus to enter.

Some people really do need to look at their attitude - maybe the amount of televised cycling now makes people think the aggressive sprinting of the pros is the way to do it - the difference is Cav can headbutt one of his peers and neither will fall off - in a 3/4 if you lean lightly on the wrong person it'll cause a pile up. Frankly if you wouldn't pull a stunt sprinting for a sign on your local chaingang then it's not ok in a race either.

Maybe time to scrap points and categories - publish results down to 20 to give the average rider something to aim for and have all in against all.

mamba80

Dark prince wrote:

Just make the finish an uphill slog or more effective is to put more hilly races on that soon breaks the 3/4 wheel suckers up

the deaths that have occurred in RR have been in plenty hilly enough events, raising stds requires more than an up hill finish.

as looky said, it will need root and branch reform and the leadership has to come from BC

DeVlaeminck

They aren't interested, look at the coaching laid on for women and kids - yet 90% of the membership are men and many of them relative novices.

Dark prince

Most crashes I've seen are on drags strips..darley moor oulton park etc..most of these guys have never done a club run ,reliability ride..just strapped a heart rate moniter on,got fit and go at it like a bull in a china shop.

ongej

Quite a few crashes I have seen or dodged have happened at the very last lap, when real power was being put down... all the people I have seen crash belonged to clubs and seem to be fine with their bike handling until the sharp end of things at 28+mph... this is when dodgy bike handling and bad decisions can be seen, because I suspect that they have little opportunity or chance to ride with high watts whilst holding a clean line with lots of people close by. In fact, I think the only opportunity to ride at that sort of pressure and speeds is... not surprisingly in a race itself. In my experience, club runs rarely have these speeds, chain gangs sometimes do, but chaingangs do not have 40 riders.

You are right that a course with some "selection" section like an uphill bit would be good to thin out the riders... but there aren't many places like these, at least down south, I can think of 2, cyclopark and hog hill.. the others are pretty flat, round-ish that pretty often end in the inevitable bunch sprint. Road races often have hilly sections, but there are oh so few of them for 4th cats..

mamba80

DeVlaeminck wrote:

They aren't interested, look at the coaching laid on for women and kids - yet 90% of the membership are men and many of them relative novices.

that is true BUT the std of training, leading to track and reg omniums for many, means the next generation of riders will be better able to race more safely.
Also, many guys are too arrogant to accept advice from anyone, they ve seen Euro Sport and now know how to race.
One other thing would be the Comms, they see bad riding but rarely if ever do anything about it, stop the race, withdraw the offending riders and that would focus minds.

BC also see women and youths as a huge growth area, women esp are concerned about safety. hence the coaching laid on to reassure them and their children.

imposter2.0

mamba80 wrote:

Also, many guys are too arrogant to accept advice from anyone, they ve seen Euro Sport and now know how to race.
One other thing would be the Comms, they see bad riding but rarely if ever do anything about it, stop the race, withdraw the offending riders and that would focus minds.

A 3/4 RR in south Wales was stopped by the comm a couple of weeks ago, for this very reason.

wallace_and_gromit

Lookyhere wrote:

I think someone said riders know crashing at 40k hurts...no they don't, for most its a theoretical knowledge only.

That was me, and who doesn't know that hitting tarmac at 40k hurts? You don't need to have drowned yourself by swimming in dangerous water or broken your neck diving into shallow water to know that these risks exist and are definitely best avoided.

Most won't know just how much hitting the tarmac at speed actually hurts, though, I'll grant you that. But even without that knowledge, everyone knows that it won't be overly pleasant and probably knows someone who has had the experience and regaled them with anecdotes of pain and suffering.

mamba80

Imposter wrote:

mamba80 wrote:

Also, many guys are too arrogant to accept advice from anyone, they ve seen Euro Sport and now know how to race.
One other thing would be the Comms, they see bad riding but rarely if ever do anything about it, stop the race, withdraw the offending riders and that would focus minds.

A 3/4 RR in south Wales was stopped by the comm a couple of weeks ago, for this very reason.

Good, it needs to happen more often, in all classes and on ccts too, make it a common occurrence and stds will rise.
Wait for BC and we ll be talking about exactly the same thing in 2 years time.

DeVlaeminck

mamba80 wrote:

DeVlaeminck wrote:

They aren't interested, look at the coaching laid on for women and kids - yet 90% of the membership are men and many of them relative novices.

that is true BUT the std of training, leading to track and reg omniums for many, means the next generation of riders will be better able to race more safely.
Also, many guys are too arrogant to accept advice from anyone, they ve seen Euro Sport and now know how to race.
One other thing would be the Comms, they see bad riding but rarely if ever do anything about it, stop the race, withdraw the offending riders and that would focus minds.

BC also see women and youths as a huge growth area, women esp are concerned about safety. hence the coaching laid on to reassure them and their children.

Yes but the next generation of riders are mostly not todays youth they are people that will come to the sport later on. Not saying they shouldn't cater for women and youth - but it seems odd that all the coaching ignores 90% of the membership.

Speaking to a comm last night I'm told they have been instructed to be much stricter on dangerous riding - I remain to be convinced it'll happen though as I've been listening to comms threaten to DQ riders in pre race briefings for years.

DeVlaeminck

I may be being a bit negative i know !

mamba80

DeVlaeminck wrote:

I may be being a bit negative i know !

No, I don't think you are, I don't agree with the complete lack of senior men coaching but unless its compulsory I do not believe the vast majority would do it, especially when you get towards 3rd or higher.

I really hope the comms crack down on rider standards, not just naming and fining afterwards but pulling riders out, stopping races, even abandoning if the situation warrants, is the only way forward.