hope I can report this tool to the police

1246

Comments

  • awavey
    awavey Posts: 2,368
    steve6690 wrote:
    I'm part of a team that investigates fatal and serious collisions. I've watched the video several times now and this really needs to be put before a court. The road is plenty wide enough and there is a good view ahead so no need to rush the overtake. Other vehicles pass the bike quite sedately with no issues. It's only my opinion but it looks like a deliberately close pass to me. I think a court would agree.

    but the courts dont even seem to agree that driving a truck over a cyclist, or driving whilst not being able to see properly is dangerous driving, and even when the driver accepts a causing death by dangerous driving charge, they let him walk free with just a suspended sentence.

    so theyd probably think an overtake like that was totally acceptable, after all there wasnt even any contact :roll:
  • rayjay
    rayjay Posts: 1,384
    I have had this sort of thing has happened to me before. Its deliberate attempt to intimidate and could easily have resulted in a death and should be treated as such. I don't care if he's retiring ,,,he needs to pay for those actions
    I emailed the company on Friday and told them exactly what I thought.
  • essexeagle
    essexeagle Posts: 60
    I also felt sick when I saw this.
    Have emailled Forest of Dean Caravans with my thoughts. This man should never be allowed behind the wheel of a vehicle again
  • jimmypippa
    jimmypippa Posts: 1,712
    The comments on road.cc imply that local cyclists have long been "aware" of that company's trucks - probably the same driver.
    http://www.bikehike.co.uk/mapview.php?id=6404
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,667
    Seems like he could have been about to kill someone. OP had a very lucky escape if this guy was getting angrier and angrier at cyclists.
    Quite ironic really as he was transporting caravans around :shock:
  • steve6690
    steve6690 Posts: 190
    awavey wrote:
    steve6690 wrote:
    I'm part of a team that investigates fatal and serious collisions. I've watched the video several times now and this really needs to be put before a court. The road is plenty wide enough and there is a good view ahead so no need to rush the overtake. Other vehicles pass the bike quite sedately with no issues. It's only my opinion but it looks like a deliberately close pass to me. I think a court would agree.

    but the courts dont even seem to agree that driving a truck over a cyclist, or driving whilst not being able to see properly is dangerous driving, and even when the driver accepts a causing death by dangerous driving charge, they let him walk free with just a suspended sentence.

    so theyd probably think an overtake like that was totally acceptable, after all there wasnt even any contact :roll:

    Nobody "accepts" a charge. You get charged whether you like it or not.
    Penalties for driving offences which result in death are usually more lenient than those for murder. It's always been that way, not just when the victim is a cyclist. In this case I believe the video might prove deliberate intent and "road rage" is an aggravating factor. I'm not saying he'll go to prison but I think a court will hammer him.
    An example I dealt with : a driver was accidentally cut up on a roundabout. This angered him so much that he followed the other car along a dual carriageway flashing his lights. Then he overtook and tried to cut them up as he pulled back in. Unfortunately he clipped their wing and they steered onto the verge and stopped. He drove off. Minor damage, no injury. The offender had a clean licence and it was his first offence. He went to prison for 9 months.
    You can never know how a court will look at it, but that's no reason not to try.
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,667
    We live in hope.
  • markhewitt1978
    markhewitt1978 Posts: 7,614
    steve6690 wrote:
    Nobody "accepts" a charge. You get charged whether you like it or not.

    No but a suspect could agree to cooperate with a particular charge especially if it's a lesser charge than they would otherwise be facing.
  • jthef
    jthef Posts: 226
    got it reported Saturday properly but no call back as yet.
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    jthef wrote:
    got it reported Saturday properly but no call back as yet.
    Have you had any more contact with the haulier?
  • markhewitt1978
    markhewitt1978 Posts: 7,614
    I am not a lawyer etc; but perhaps it's advisable if the OP did not have any contact with them?
  • steve6690
    steve6690 Posts: 190
    markhewitt1978 wrote:
    steve6690 wrote:
    Nobody "accepts" a charge. You get charged whether you like it or not.

    No but a suspect could agree to cooperate with a particular charge especially if it's a lesser charge than they would otherwise be facing.

    Yes, but with some complications. You can either admit an offence in interview or deny it. As an example, if you were being interviewed about an allegation of Dangerous Driving you could admit enough to be charged with Due Care instead but it would depend on what other evidence there was.
    Even if you're charged with the more serious offence there can be some negotiation between the lawyers at court. But if the CPS charge you with dangerous driving and are confident of winning, you won't be allowed to plead to a lesser offence just because it's easier for everyone as it would avoid a trial.
    Independent evidence can be very useful. If I were investigating this incident I'd be looking to identify the driver of the car immediately behind the offending driver. That might be really good evidence.
  • StillGoing
    StillGoing Posts: 5,211
    markhewitt1978 wrote:
    steve6690 wrote:
    Nobody "accepts" a charge. You get charged whether you like it or not.

    No but a suspect could agree to cooperate with a particular charge especially if it's a lesser charge than they would otherwise be facing.

    Doesn't work like that. The CPS authorise charges for most offences other than minor traffic. In this scenario it will be the CPS that decide the form of charge to put before the courts. The accused gets no say as to what they are willing to be charged with. At court, the defence may offer a no contest guilty plea to a lesser charge in exchange for dropping the more serious charge, but this is usually for reasons of public expenditure for a lengthy trial or where the verdict is not certain to be guilty. In this incident, the chances of a guilty verdict are huge and the defence really has no defence so a lengthy trial is unlikely. A plea bargain is not appropriate in this case.
    I ride a bike. Doesn't make me green or a tree hugger. I drive a car too.
  • markhewitt1978
    markhewitt1978 Posts: 7,614
    philthy3 wrote:
    In this incident, the chances of a guilty verdict are huge and the defence really has no defence so a lengthy trial is unlikely. A plea bargain is not appropriate in this case.

    Is it? We've seen innumerable cases where cyclists have been killed, rather than just close passed and the judge has accepted the drivers flimsy defence - low sun for example.
  • Mikey23
    Mikey23 Posts: 5,306
    Were you there at each of these cases? Would it not be more correct to say that this was part of the evidence presented at the trial that the judge gave consideration too?
  • dodgy
    dodgy Posts: 2,890
    Driver has been sacked http://www.caravantimes.co.uk/news/peop ... 384068.htm
  • HellsCyclist
    HellsCyclist Posts: 122
    GiantMike wrote:
    Post the video on Youtube with the reg in the title. If everybody did this insurance companies and the police would be able to identify poor drivers and treat them accordingly. If I was an insurance company I'd refuse to re-insure that vehicle again and if I was the Police I'd send somebody round to have a chat.

    If I was a rapist that person would be screwed. If I was a taxidermist I would make sure he got stuffed.
  • Scotter
    Scotter Posts: 52
    I just hope that this story gets into every one of the "Red top" tabloid press, so that every other moronic driver, who likes to "play" with cyclists in this way, can get the message.

    Helmet cameras are becoming more and more commonplace, and their evidence could mean you lose your job if you drive in this manner.
  • steve6690
    steve6690 Posts: 190
    markhewitt1978 wrote:
    philthy3 wrote:
    In this incident, the chances of a guilty verdict are huge and the defence really has no defence so a lengthy trial is unlikely. A plea bargain is not appropriate in this case.

    Is it? We've seen innumerable cases where cyclists have been killed, rather than just close passed and the judge has accepted the drivers flimsy defence - low sun for example.

    Every case is judged on it's individual circumstances. I'd recommend anybody spending a day at the crown court. Things are rarely as straightforward as first seems.
  • Mikey23
    Mikey23 Posts: 5,306
    Wot I said ;-)
  • rudivoller22
    rudivoller22 Posts: 492
    OP what camera do you use? Thinking of getting one after a couple of incidents recently.

    Glad the guy got sacked. Worst piece of driving I think I have ever seen and I'm not sure I'd have held it together in the same situation.
  • awavey
    awavey Posts: 2,368
    steve6690 wrote:
    Nobody "accepts" a charge. You get charged whether you like it or not.
    Penalties for driving offences which result in death are usually more lenient than those for murder. It's always been that way, not just when the victim is a cyclist. In this case I believe the video might prove deliberate intent and "road rage" is an aggravating factor. I'm not saying he'll go to prison but I think a court will hammer him.
    An example I dealt with : a driver was accidentally cut up on a roundabout. This angered him so much that he followed the other car along a dual carriageway flashing his lights. Then he overtook and tried to cut them up as he pulled back in. Unfortunately he clipped their wing and they steered onto the verge and stopped. He drove off. Minor damage, no injury. The offender had a clean licence and it was his first offence. He went to prison for 9 months.
    You can never know how a court will look at it, but that's no reason not to try.

    ok "accept" was the wrong phrasing, its a case where the driver pleaded guilty to causing death by careless driving after being charged with death by dangerous driving.

    http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/tipper-lorry-driver-admits-killing-cyclist-just-days-before-trial-starts-9086992.html

    so ok no I dont know anymore details of the case than that, but thats not the first recent high profile case where that has happened this year, and again no explanation was presented in the press, and I dont understand why that happens if as everyone says you cant plea bargain the lesser charge. Or how that could result in a chance of more severe sentencing for what is a truly appalling piece of driving, but fortunately no-one was injured :?
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,470
    Like others I thought this would be another thread where the video shows a car passing with about a metre to spare. That's one lucky cyclist and driver. The sacking is good news and very prompt, good to see the OP acknowledging the positive response throughout from FoD Caravans. They could easily have claimed it wasn't their truck and hoped he'd gone away. It has to be a dangerous driving charge, the use of the horn without any attempt to move over removes any possible reason for going for careless driving. He'd plainly seen the cyclist in time and sounding the horn served no purpose as the cyclist couldn't move out of the way. I'd have jumped out of my skin and swerved in his path!
  • jthef
    jthef Posts: 226
    hi
    The camra I have is a chilli
    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Chilli-Technology-Action-VGA-Head/dp/B005PK5J0G/ref=sr_1_12?ie=UTF8&qid=1394492355&sr=8-12&keywords=helmet+cam
    nothing special but been good and lasted well. used all winter even heavy rain.

    just ordered a fly6 should arrive in a few months.
    will help identify in future as I did not get wagon Reg.
  • StillGoing
    StillGoing Posts: 5,211
    awavey wrote:
    steve6690 wrote:
    Nobody "accepts" a charge. You get charged whether you like it or not.
    Penalties for driving offences which result in death are usually more lenient than those for murder. It's always been that way, not just when the victim is a cyclist. In this case I believe the video might prove deliberate intent and "road rage" is an aggravating factor. I'm not saying he'll go to prison but I think a court will hammer him.
    An example I dealt with : a driver was accidentally cut up on a roundabout. This angered him so much that he followed the other car along a dual carriageway flashing his lights. Then he overtook and tried to cut them up as he pulled back in. Unfortunately he clipped their wing and they steered onto the verge and stopped. He drove off. Minor damage, no injury. The offender had a clean licence and it was his first offence. He went to prison for 9 months.
    You can never know how a court will look at it, but that's no reason not to try.

    ok "accept" was the wrong phrasing, its a case where the driver pleaded guilty to causing death by careless driving after being charged with death by dangerous driving.

    http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/tipper-lorry-driver-admits-killing-cyclist-just-days-before-trial-starts-9086992.html

    so ok no I dont know anymore details of the case than that, but thats not the first recent high profile case where that has happened this year, and again no explanation was presented in the press, and I dont understand why that happens if as everyone says you cant plea bargain the lesser charge. Or how that could result in a chance of more severe sentencing for what is a truly appalling piece of driving, but fortunately no-one was injured :?


    To prove death by dangerous the CPS have to prove that the driving fell far below that expected of a careful and competent driver or it would be obvious to a careful and competent driver that driving in that way would be dangerous. Sounds easy enough except it isn't. It is an objective test rather than a subjective one so requires the jury to decide if the driving standard fell far below that expected, or it would be obvious to a careful and competent driver that driving in that way would be dangerous. In death by careless cases, the points to prove are less problematic.

    http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/p_to_r/road ... iving/#a24

    The likely punishment for death by careless and death by dangerous are virtually the same so a guilty plea to the lesser charge saves the courts and the public time and money. Only in the most extreme cases is a driver convicted of causing death by dangerous likely to incur a custodial sentence and only if there are aggravating factors such as excess alcohol.

    https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/s_to_u/sen ... s_driving/

    https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/s_to_u/sen ... e_driving/
    I ride a bike. Doesn't make me green or a tree hugger. I drive a car too.
  • markhewitt1978
    markhewitt1978 Posts: 7,614
    Presumably the driver could be banned from driving HGVs as separate from a car driving licence?
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    markhewitt1978 wrote:
    Presumably the driver could be banned from driving HGVs as separate from a car driving licence?

    A driving ban applies to the licence holder, not the licence category.
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,470
    He's unlikely to get future work if he ends up convicted of dangerous driving (and publicity around the case may ensure it struggles even if acquitted.
  • slowbike
    slowbike Posts: 8,498
    Pross wrote:
    He's unlikely to get future work if he ends up convicted of dangerous driving (and publicity around the case may ensure it struggles even if acquitted.
    You'd think that would be enough of a deterrent to have prevented the incident in the first place. :(
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,470
    philthy3 wrote:
    To prove death by dangerous the CPS have to prove that the driving fell far below that expected of a careful and competent driver or it would be obvious to a careful and competent driver that driving in that way would be dangerous. Sounds easy enough except it isn't. It is an objective test rather than a subjective one so requires the jury to decide if the driving standard fell far below that expected, or it would be obvious to a careful and competent driver that driving in that way would be dangerous. In death by careless cases, the points to prove are less problematic.

    This is where I think helmet cameras (and dashboard mounted cameras in vehicles) can be a big help. Without physical evidence it is very difficult to convince a jury quite how bad the level of driving was but presented with footage such as that provided by the OP it would hopefully leave them in no doubt whether they are determining a dangerous driving case or death by dangerous driving. I would also hope that the apparently aggressive use of the horn would be deemed a mitigating factor when (if) the judge is passing sentence.

    I've recently got myself a helmet camera. I haven't got any intention of publishing footage of bad driving but I want it as a back up if I'm unfortunate to be involved in a collision where it's my word against someone else's (who may have witnesses in their vehicle prepared top perjure themselves). I'd also like to see vehicle mounted cameras, that are becoming compulsory with some insurers for young drivers, to become a legal requirement. Surely it will help improve driving standards if people know there is a record of how they were driving in the lead up to an accident?

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