RIP Panta
Comments
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The fondness with which many here remember Pantani might be a bit confusing to the younger people reading this forum who didn't get to see Pantani in his heyday. Yes, it certainly appears EPO played a significant part in his results but you have to consider the impact he made on the sport when he won those two stages in the 1994 Giro and his subsequent contribution to that year's Tour.
This is my take on why many still have admiration for Pantani. If you had been a fan of cycling in the 80's and early 90's, one topic that seemed to feature regularly in the early 90's was the demise of the "Pure Climber". I remember that "Cycle Sport" did a climber's special issue and this was discussed, with the conclusion being that we would never again see a rider of the calibre of Van Impe, Herrara or Millar (to name but three). Riders like Rooks and Theunisse seemed to represent the new type of "climber" and the small, lightweight climbers seemed to be a thing of the past. Indurain was also the dominant climber in that period and he wasn't exactly a pure climber. Others like Luc Leblanc and Richard Virenque weren't the sport's top stylists either. When Pantani arrived on the big stage, he took up the role of the sport's premier "pure climber" and he immediately reminded many of a bygone era. I can't recall if the question of EPO was even on the radar at that time or if it was still the peloton's hidden secret but if you believed that most riders, Pantani included, were racing cleanly, then here was a rider that fans of the sport could delight in.
So many other small factors contributed to his popularity. He was from Italy, one of the traditional homelands of cycling, and rode for one of the sport's big teams, Carrera. He had a beautiful riding style up-hill and even climbed at times on the drops, unlike anyone else. Almost no-one could hold his wheel when he attacked up-hill. He hung off the back of his bike in a unique aero-tuck when descending and descended with careless abandon. He was introspective and a little moody. He physically looked distinctive, especially in his Briko shades. His introduction to a global audience at the 1994 Tour ended in glorious failure, with many attacking rides in the mountains yielding no stage win, and this no doubt only contributed to his popularity from then on. He was the plucky upstart who would challenge Indurain in the coming years and that excited many. The rest, as they say, is history.
Ultimately, Pantani proved himself to be human and far from perfect. None of the rest of us are perfect either. Add it all up, consider the good and the bad of the Marco Pantani story, and perhaps the affection some of us retain for him can be explained thus.
DD.0 -
Great post DD.Contador is the Greatest0
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Great read. Thanks DD....a rare 100% loyal Pro Race poster. A poster boy for the community.0
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I used to be a massive Pantani fan in my younger salad days. The theatrics, the entertainment. It was like watching an actor perform a role (but in a good way). I remember watching the Festina Tour and the sit-down on stage 12 and being outraged and disgusted on the cyclists behalf. I mean how dare these pesky policemen insinuate such things and arrest people like common criminals. The injustice. I sat on the sofa harrumphing and penning a letter to the relevant authorities in the requisite green pen* while all the while my father just sat there with a look I now understand but at the time I didn't. He sat there in passive contemplation and bemusement at my naivety, anger at the protest and all laced with the look of a man who's inner turmoil and regrets were finally being publicly vindicated for the first time. It took another decade and a half for the final vindication but that was the beginning.
As for how I feel about Pantani, sadness. That is all. Just a sadness.
*OK I didn't actually write a letter, artistic license.Correlation is not causation.0 -
disgruntledgoat wrote:Imagine not wanting to descend the Galibier with no hands in a storm whilst you're shivering. What a wimp!
I seem to remember that roche was yelling 'put the jacket on backwards!!'
which to be fair to Marco, I've tried once and it doesn't work, there is too much flapping and you don't generate body heat in the jacket to keep you warm"I get paid to make other people suffer on my wheel, how good is that"
--Jens Voight0 -
Above The Cows wrote:I used to be a massive Pantani fan in my younger salad days. The theatrics, the entertainment. It was like watching an actor perform a role (but in a good way). I remember watching the Festina Tour and the sit-down on stage 12 and being outraged and disgusted on the cyclists behalf. I mean how dare these pesky policemen insinuate such things and arrest people like common criminals. The injustice. I sat on the sofa harrumphing and penning a letter to the relevant authorities in the requisite green pen* while all the while my father just sat there with a look I now understand but at the time I didn't. He sat there in passive contemplation and bemusement at my naivety, anger at the protest and all laced with the look of a man who's inner turmoil and regrets were finally being publicly vindicated for the first time. It took another decade and a half for the final vindication but that was the beginning.
As for how I feel about Pantani, sadness. That is all. Just a sadness.
I think I'm going to cry
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Dolan Driver wrote:Yes, it certainly appears EPO played a significant part in his results but you have to consider the impact he made on the sport when he won those two stages in the 1994 Giro and his subsequent contribution to that year's Tour.
DD.
Wait so because he had a good look (which he didn't) and rode theatrically that excuses his doping?0 -
sjmclean wrote:Dolan Driver wrote:Yes, it certainly appears EPO played a significant part in his results but you have to consider the impact he made on the sport when he won those two stages in the 1994 Giro and his subsequent contribution to that year's Tour.
DD.
Wait so because he had a good look (which he didn't) and rode theatrically that excuses his doping?
Ja, that's not what he's saying is it?
It's not a binary thing.0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:sjmclean wrote:Dolan Driver wrote:Yes, it certainly appears EPO played a significant part in his results but you have to consider the impact he made on the sport when he won those two stages in the 1994 Giro and his subsequent contribution to that year's Tour.
DD.
Wait so because he had a good look (which he didn't) and rode theatrically that excuses his doping?
Ja, that's not what he's saying is it?
It's not a binary thing.
But to an extent it is, isn't it?0 -
I am not trying to excuse Pantani's doping. He doped and that is wrong. It is as simple as that.
The question of Pantani and how he is remembered seems to be a decisive one here on BR. Either you remember him fondly, despite his flaws, or you regard him with the same contempt reserved for Lance Armstrong. I tried to explain why I remember Pantani fondly and don't actually hate the guy, despite his doping. I witnessed his racing in the 1990's with innocent eyes and it was incredibly exciting. As I look at the DVDs of his Giro and Tour wins now, the over-riding emotion is sadness, knowing what fuelled his performances on the road and ultimately what became of Pantani.
Unfortunately the guy isn't here anymore and perhaps that means some people go a little easier on him than might ordinarily be the case.
DD.0 -
Dolan Driver wrote:I am not trying to excuse Pantani's doping. He doped and that is wrong. It is as simple as that.
DD.
I didn't mean to say you were making excuses for his jokes, I meant it more as an observation of how cycling fans work. He's loved because he was an eclectic rider, despite his doping. Making a comparison to Lance isn't fair, I wouldn't compare many to him.
I find it funny how some dopers are held in such contempt yet others are remembered so fondly. I even seen one particular person on here make a comment in favor of Di Luca because of a Giro stage.0 -
This is very true for me.
Michael Hutchinson @Doctor_Hutch 1m
Doesn't need double-think to feel that Pantani was as dishonest as Armstrong, but still didn't deserve to have his life end as it did.0 -
sjmclean wrote:
I find it funny how some dopers are held in such contempt yet others are remembered so fondly. I even seen one particular person on here make a comment in favor of Di Luca because of a Giro stage.
Di Luca... gutsy rider... always liked his riding style
Wiggins, possibly clean, never really like the way he rides... if he doped, he'd be faster, but still boring
Sorry if I can see beyond the drugs... I can't force myself to like a rider on the grounds that he is clean
I do like Evans... some say he's clean... is that enough? left the forum March 20230 -
You're not seeing beyond the drugs, you're not seeing as far as them.ugo.santalucia wrote:Sorry if I can see beyond the drugs... I can't force myself to like a rider on the grounds that he is cleanTwitter: @RichN950 -
Yes, Ugo ... 3 posts should do it ...0
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RichN95 wrote:
You're not seeing beyond the drugs, you're not seeing as far as them.ugo.santalucia wrote:Sorry if I can see beyond the drugs... I can't force myself to like a rider on the grounds that he is clean
I spent years arguing about a clean sport... I have changed my mind many times and my current line of thought is that it will never be as clean as we want it to be... it will be nice if it wasn't as bad as it was 10-20 years ago. If an athlete has to be on constant drugs from the age of 15 to the age of 35 that's not good... but Contador's traces of clenbuterol leave me rather indifferent.
More to the point, I can't force myself to like a rider on the grounds that allegedly he is clean... I might even end up disappoointed to find out he actually isn't. I like the riders I like, some happen to be famous dopers... I no longer feel guilty for cheering the cheat... sorrry if I enjoyed Vino winning the gold or Di Luca winning one of the many races he won... Pantani climbing on the drops. I also like Cancellara and Boonen and they might be clean!
Each one to his own, you think it's wrong to support a doped athlete, I think it's pointless to constantly ask yourself the same question... there are other sports with cleaner credentials for those who have a doping paranoialeft the forum March 20230 -
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ugo.santalucia wrote:RichN95 wrote:
You're not seeing beyond the drugs, you're not seeing as far as them.ugo.santalucia wrote:Sorry if I can see beyond the drugs... I can't force myself to like a rider on the grounds that he is clean
I spent years arguing about a clean sport... I have changed my mind many times and my current line of thought is that it will never be as clean as we want it to be... it will be nice if it wasn't as bad as it was 10-20 years ago. If an athlete has to be on constant drugs from the age of 15 to the age of 35 that's not good... but Contador's traces of clenbuterol leave me rather indifferent.
More to the point, I can't force myself to like a rider on the grounds that allegedly he is clean... I might even end up disappoointed to find out he actually isn't. I like the riders I like, some happen to be famous dopers... I no longer feel guilty for cheering the cheat... sorrry if I enjoyed Vino winning the gold or Di Luca winning one of the many races he won... Pantani climbing on the drops. I also like Cancellara and Boonen and they might be clean!
Each one to his own, you think it's wrong to support a doped athlete, I think it's pointless to constantly ask yourself the same question... there are other sports with cleaner credentials for those who have a doping paranoia
Pretty much it for me.
I find it tragic what happened to Pantani. I grew up watching him and amazed how he lit up races by going with his gut instinct and attacking. When I found out he had passed I was gutted. I have family with mental health problems and maybe this has had an effect on my emotions for him. He never failed a drugs test, but he had a heamocrit level like a whores draws. But does he deserve to have his life taken from him?
Cycling at the end of the day is a business and along with that comes money, with money comes greed.
I just find it amusing that some people call out Pantani et al as a cheat, yet on the other hand sit with their Sky kit on cheering Froome who has come out of nowehere to smash the Peloton to bits. But thats ok, its all high cadance and beetroot juice thats done it.
Anyways, I didnt want this thread to become a thread about doping, but I knew it was going to be hard because of the suspicions etc around Pantani and the era. I wanted it to be a thread about a guy who should still be here, doper or none doper. Nobody deserves to take their own lives, its a tragic thing. Its a thread about paying your respects to a chap who should still be here with his family & friends.
RIP Panta.0 -
Here's the thing. Like most others here I loved Pantani when he appeared on the scene, even after he was thrown out of the Giro because it wasnt clear then that he had actually been doping. When it became apparent just how much difference the juice had made - basicallly if you accept Rendell's argument, he was a good but not special rider who was transformed by EPO into a world beater - I couldnt watch those earlier performances with any joy or excitement and really dont get how anyone can. Of course, his death was a great tragedy for his family and for the sport which having made him then destroyed him (although an alternative reading is that Pantani had an addictive personality that would have destroyed him whatever path his life had taken).
So, for me, I can remember the exhiliration his performances brought me personally, the hairs on the back of the neck standing up as he accelerated away on a climb, but they're like memories of a beautiful ex-girlfriend who ran off with a best mate, they are tainted by subsequent history and dont mean much of anything in the present.0 -
Paulie W wrote:basicallly if you accept Rendell's argument, he was a good but not special rider who was transformed by EPO into a world beater -
Why would I accept this person's argument? I have no idea who he is. It's the first time that I hear someone saying Pantani was an average talent and clearly it's bolxxcksleft the forum March 20230 -
ugo.santalucia wrote:Paulie W wrote:basicallly if you accept Rendell's argument, he was a good but not special rider who was transformed by EPO into a world beater -
Why would I accept this person's argument? I have no idea who he is. It's the first time that I hear someone saying Pantani was an average talent and clearly it's bolxxcks
http://www.podiumcafe.com/2011/2/8/1982 ... tt-rendell0 -
ugo.santalucia wrote:Paulie W wrote:basicallly if you accept Rendell's argument, he was a good but not special rider who was transformed by EPO into a world beater -
Why would I accept this person's argument? I have no idea who he is. It's the first time that I hear someone saying Pantani was an average talent and clearly it's bolxxcks
Yeah it is surely nonsense. I have seen videos from when he was a youngster tearing people apart. It even said further up the thread that he could drop people at will on the climbs and only didnt because he was shy.Contador is the Greatest0 -
ugo.santalucia wrote:Paulie W wrote:basicallly if you accept Rendell's argument, he was a good but not special rider who was transformed by EPO into a world beater -
Why would I accept this person's argument? I have no idea who he is. It's the first time that I hear someone saying Pantani was an average talent and clearly it's bolxxcks
Maybe start by finding out who he is then eh? He wrote The Death of Marco Pantani which is a forensic analysis of Marco's career and his use of PEDs. Maybe read the book and then make the judgement.0 -
frenchfighter wrote:ugo.santalucia wrote:Paulie W wrote:basicallly if you accept Rendell's argument, he was a good but not special rider who was transformed by EPO into a world beater -
Why would I accept this person's argument? I have no idea who he is. It's the first time that I hear someone saying Pantani was an average talent and clearly it's bolxxcks
Yeah it is surely nonsense. I have seen videos from when he was a youngster tearing people apart. It even said further up the thread that he could drop people at will on the climbs and only didnt because he was shy.
No it isnt - dont let facts get in the way of your world view though eh?!0 -
I'm pretty certain Rendell's never insinuated anything of the kind0
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Paulie W wrote:ugo.santalucia wrote:Paulie W wrote:basicallly if you accept Rendell's argument, he was a good but not special rider who was transformed by EPO into a world beater -
Why would I accept this person's argument? I have no idea who he is. It's the first time that I hear someone saying Pantani was an average talent and clearly it's bolxxcks
Maybe start by finding out who he is then eh? He wrote The Death of Marco Pantani which is a forensic analysis of Marco's career and his use of PEDs. Maybe read the book and then make the judgement.
Must be the Bible then...
Pantani won the Giro for young riders and he was the best climber of his generation before turning PRO and before the EPO spread in the field... how can EPO have made him in what he was already?
Was he better with EPO? Of course he was, just like Ullrich was better and Virenque was better... are we lacking context here?
They found him with 60% ematocrit (arguable)... Chiappucci was measured at 62% so what?left the forum March 20230
This discussion has been closed.
