RIP Panta

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  • disgruntledgoat
    disgruntledgoat Posts: 8,957
    Oh lummy he's back on Big Ted.

    Again, the left over stash of WW2 amphetamines and over the counter pep pills that were doing the rounds up to the late 1980s were nothing like as effective in skewing the outcome of a bike race towards their takers. Often times, they were merely taken to get through the 10 hour drive to the next crit.

    If EPO and blood doping weren't much more effective, nobody would have used them as, compared to the alternative, they're bloody expensive.
    "In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

    @gietvangent
  • kleinstroker
    kleinstroker Posts: 2,133
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    rayjay wrote:

    Who doped to win the most races Merckx or Armstrong?

    Who's worse ?

    Neither...
    Who do we think we are to judge the morality of an individual? When the system does not work by the rules from the very top, only a handful of fools play by the rules... it would be like paying taxes in Zimbabwe... you must be completely mad to give your money to that government. The system was not right, it's never been right, it's only starting now to get right, it's not right yet... but it starts to make sense to ride clean, you can get results... 20 years ago only a hopeless idiot would dare riding clean.

    The Armstrong era is particularly bad as the practice of blood doping was extremely dangerous, compared to the risk involved in previous doping regimes

    Don't blame Merckx or Armstrong, blame those at the top of the game who avoided to tackle the issue... has anyone put Verbruggen & co. on trial?

    Wise words... basically the governing bodies have been reluctant to take a tough enough stance against doping as I'm sure deep down they were worried a lot of races would suffer as consequence.
  • disgruntledgoat
    disgruntledgoat Posts: 8,957
    Or to put it another way, if somebody offered you a pill to make you better at your job with no real danger of getting caught, why wouldn't you take it?
    "In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

    @gietvangent
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,255
    disgruntledgoat wrote:
    Or to put it another way, if somebody offered you a pill to make you better at your job with no real danger of getting caught, why wouldn't you take it?

    That implies the athlete is morally corrupted. Instead I sincerely believe that young riders were introduced to a world where taking PED was THE only way to succeed. There was no option. I know guys who refused to get serious into racing as their parents were wise enough to take a stand, knowing what was waiting for them at the age of 16.

    Some think that Armstrong at one point became a monster, but reality is the guy had been taking drugs since before turning PRO, like everyone else... after the cancer he probably became a bit wiser about what works and what doesn't, based on his experience in hospital and nailed the therapy that worked for him, together with Ferrari.
    At the time everyone was trying to make the most of blood doping... as you have to do it, because everyone does it and if you don't do it you won't even be able to keep up, then why not doing it right instead of risking your life for nothing?
    Can you really blame someone for cheating the rules better than others? C'mon...
    left the forum March 2023
  • disgruntledgoat
    disgruntledgoat Posts: 8,957
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    disgruntledgoat wrote:
    Or to put it another way, if somebody offered you a pill to make you better at your job with no real danger of getting caught, why wouldn't you take it?

    That implies the athlete is morally corrupted. Instead I sincerely believe that young riders were introduced to a world where taking PED was THE only way to succeed. There was no option. I know guys who refused to get serious into racing as their parents were wise enough to take a stand, knowing what was waiting for them at the age of 16.

    Some think that Armstrong at one point became a monster, but reality is the guy had been taking drugs since before turning PRO, like everyone else... after the cancer he probably became a bit wiser about what works and what doesn't, based on his experience in hospital and nailed the therapy that worked for him, together with Ferrari.
    At the time everyone was trying to make the most of blood doping... as you have to do it, because everyone does it and if you don't do it you won't even be able to keep up, then why not doing it right instead of risking your life for nothing?
    Can you really blame someone for cheating the rules better than others? C'mon...


    I think you misunderstand me, I'm not blaming them. It's Hobson's choice, you cheat and improve or take a stand you can never talk about and go do something else.

    Nobody is a saint, we're all hypocrites. In all likelihood you, me and rayjay would have, faced with the same choice gone down the same path. We probably would have still given generously to charity, paid our taxes and helped old ladies across the road.
    "In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

    @gietvangent
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,255
    disgruntledgoat wrote:
    Nobody is a saint, we're all hypocrites. In all likelihood you, me and rayjay would have, faced with the same choice gone down the same path. We probably would have still given generously to charity, paid our taxes and helped old ladies across the road.

    Absolutely... the hypocrisy of those pointing fingers at Armstrong and Pantani from the comfort of their semidetached is really annoying... They don't have a clue about how the system worked and believe the words of all those grumpy individuals that had no talent and now blame cheats for the fact they never won anything...
    It's different if someone in the peloton actually takes a stand against doping, that I admire.

    The idea that a better and clean athlete was robbed of a victory is completely misled. Take Armstrong out of the GC... who is the deserving winner? Basso? Ullrich? Beloki? How low down in the GC you need to go to find this deserving athlete?
    left the forum March 2023
  • rayjay
    rayjay Posts: 1,384
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    rayjay wrote:

    Who doped to win the most races Merckx or Armstrong?

    Who's worse ?

    Neither...
    Who do we think we are to judge the morality of an individual? When the system does not work by the rules from the very top, only a handful of fools play by the rules... it would be like paying taxes in Zimbabwe... you must be completely mad to give your money to that government. The system was not right, it's never been right, it's only starting now to get right, it's not right yet... but it starts to make sense to ride clean, you can get results... 20 years ago only a hopeless idiot would dare riding clean.

    The Armstrong era is particularly bad as the practice of blood doping was extremely dangerous, compared to the risk involved in previous doping regimes

    Don't blame Merckx or Armstrong, blame those at the top of the game who avoided to tackle the issue... has anyone put Verbruggen & co. on trial?


    I just asked the question :roll:

    If Merckx and co could have got hold of the same juice as Armstrong and co don't you think he would have taken it?
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,255
    rayjay wrote:
    If Merckx and co could have got hold of the same juice as Armstrong and co don't you think he would have taken it?

    Of course...
    left the forum March 2023
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,699
    What was the story on Les Deux Alp? Did Ulrich not eat enough because his food was high tech and froze??

    I know he always liked bad weather, but he looked pretty strong beforehand (IIRC) but not quite '97 where Pantani couldn't touch him.

    Anyone know more background? The main thing I remember is Ulle's sunken face, being ferried by an anxious Riis and the crowds parting as Pantsni was in and out of the saddle. ( with my grandfather saying - to translate - the little elephant!! Look at him! The German has porridge legs. Riis looks so frustrated)
    _
  • disgruntledgoat
    disgruntledgoat Posts: 8,957
    Aye, just imagine if Merckx could have done something to make himself utterly superior to everyone else and really dominate cycling in the 1970s.
    "In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

    @gietvangent
  • disgruntledgoat
    disgruntledgoat Posts: 8,957
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    What was the story on Les Deux Alp? Did Ulrich not eat enough because his food was high tech and froze??

    I know he always liked bad weather, but he looked pretty strong beforehand (IIRC) but not quite '97 where Pantani couldn't touch him.

    Anyone know more background? The main thing I remember is Ulle's sunken face, being ferried by an anxious Riis and the crowds parting as Pantsni was in and out of the saddle. ( with my grandfather saying - to translate - the little elephant!! Look at him! The German has porridge legs. Riis looks so frustrated)

    Nowt to do with the food, Ullrich had Telekom ride like maniacs for the first 100km of the stage and had nobody left to help him apart from Riis. Never did like the bad weather either.
    "In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

    @gietvangent
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,699
    I meant he never liked bad weather!!!
    _
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,699
    Yeah but you don't lose 8mins for losing the team early. Riis had to wait for Ulle didn't he?
    _
  • phreak
    phreak Posts: 2,906
    Ullrich punctured as well don't forget. Obviously that's not going to account for the 8 minutes, but maybe that coupled with bad legs, few team mates, lack of food, an inspired Pantani etc. perhaps created a perfect storm.

    Ullrich certainly recovered for the stage over the Madelaine.
  • disgruntledgoat
    disgruntledgoat Posts: 8,957
    What was the gap over the top of the Galibier and at the bottom of Deux Alpes? Because it was chuffing freezing and the weather was foul n all. My recollection was that he lost a good chunk down there.

    I might have to watch it later.
    "In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

    @gietvangent
  • rayjay
    rayjay Posts: 1,384
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    rayjay wrote:
    If Merckx and co could have got hold of the same juice as Armstrong and co don't you think he would have taken it?

    Of course...

    ugo,you have a realistic outlook on doping and I agree with your view.

    But I don't seem to be getting any response from the Armstrong haters out there.

    They tie themselves up with hypocrisy.
  • frenchfighter
    frenchfighter Posts: 30,642
    Alberto Contador ‏@albertocontador Feb 14
    Today I want remember one of the persons that make me fall in love with this sport.
    Contador is the Greatest
  • disgruntledgoat
    disgruntledgoat Posts: 8,957
    frenchfighter wrote:
    Alberto Contador ‏@albertocontador Feb 14
    Today I want remember one of the persons that make me fall in love with this sport.


    He's a good lad isn't he?
    "In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

    @gietvangent
  • takethehighroad
    takethehighroad Posts: 6,646
    On the Humans Invent podcast they said Ullrich ate Power Bars and they froze, whereas Pantani ate something "rustic" which I can't quite remember off the top of my head.
  • iainf72
    iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    TakeTheHighRoad wrote:
    On the Humans Invent podcast they said Ullrich ate Power Bars and they froze, whereas Pantani ate something "rustic" which I can't quite remember off the top of my head.

    Jam sandwiches
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,699
    Yeah. First I'd heard that.
    _
  • frenchfighter
    frenchfighter Posts: 30,642
    Old school heavyweight.
    Contador is the Greatest
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,255
    rayjay wrote:
    They tie themselves up with hypocrisy.

    Obsessed by the rules book, they can't see the bigger picture.
    Selling weapons and becoming a billionaire by doing so is perfectly legal, yet how can it be morally better than doping your blood to win the Tour de France?
    How many people died as a result of Armstrong actions? How many people were inspired to fight cancer or help others doing so as a result of Armstrong actions... how many embraced sport as a result and live a better life?
    left the forum March 2023
  • philbar72
    philbar72 Posts: 2,229
    Smokey Bacon wrote:
    Blazing Saddles wrote:
    I think everybody is aware that Pantani was just as bad as all
    the rest.
    I just got the impression this thread was more about
    remembering his beautiful climbing style and attacking bravado.
    The rest, being taken as read, given the significance of the date.

    I think of a world without Pantani, still populated by Armstrong, Ullrich
    and Indurain.
    I think of Aprica, 1994, Les Deux Alpes and Alberville, 1998, Ventoux and Morzine 2000.
    I give thanks.

    +1 my man.
    Totally agree with this. Never an angel, but a fantastic talent.
  • Le Commentateur
    Le Commentateur Posts: 4,099
    edited February 2014
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    What was the story on Les Deux Alp? Did Ulrich not eat enough because his food was high tech and froze??

    I know he always liked bad weather, but he looked pretty strong beforehand (IIRC) but not quite '97 where Pantani couldn't touch him.

    Anyone know more background? The main thing I remember is Ulle's sunken face, being ferried by an anxious Riis and the crowds parting as Pantsni was in and out of the saddle. ( with my grandfather saying - to translate - the little elephant!! Look at him! The German has porridge legs. Riis looks so frustrated)
    I was in a bar at L2A watching the whole stage on the TV with a lot of Italians who had driven over from Turin and elsewhere the day before.

    The key action began near the top of the Telegraphe and the lower part of the Galibier, when the group was whittled down as they pulled back some breakaways (including one by Tyler Hamilton). Ulrich basically ended up in a pack of climbers including Escartin, Luc Leblanc, Pantani, Boogerd, Jalabert and Julich. Riis and other Telkom riders couldn't stay in the group. Ullrich wore himself out countering numerous probing attacks from everyone except Pantani, who did nothing and kept hidden from view. In the bar the atmosphere was electric, hardly a sound as we watched, waiting, knowing that this was the day he had to directly challenge Ullrich. Pantani's only attack was the moment where he broke away in the upper half of the Galibier – the cheer in the bar was like a goal being scored – and bridged across to an early breakaway group and Escartin who had got away. That group pretty much stayed together on the descent off the Galibier down the the Reservoir at the foot of the Les Deux Alpes climb to the finish. This was crucial, because they were better organised than the chasers, so they opened more of a gap (I think about 3 or 4 minutes only, but it was just enough to put Pantani into virtual yellow. Ullrich punctured just as he reached the reservoir and never really got going properly again, losing a further 5 minutes on the final climb and was caught and helped to the finish by Riis and Bölts.
    Un uomo solo al commando
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,699
    Cheers.

    I was 10 so hazy memories.
    _
  • mike6
    mike6 Posts: 1,199
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Cheers.

    I was 10 so hazy memories.

    You are simply showing off now, I cant remember as far back as when I was 10. :D
  • phreak
    phreak Posts: 2,906
    I wasn't really into cycling at the time, being more of a swimmer as a teenager, but that stage was absolutely gripping. I remember watching Brian Lara trash the Aussies at Bridgetown not long after Pantani's win.

    Both are what sport is about imo. Mesmerising spectacles both of them.
  • andyp
    andyp Posts: 10,111
    My abiding memory of the tv coverage was Stephen Roche going ballistic because Pantani stopped to put on a jacket at the summit of the Galibier, yet that was probably what led to him being able to open a Tour winning gap later on the stage.
  • disgruntledgoat
    disgruntledgoat Posts: 8,957
    Imagine not wanting to descend the Galibier with no hands in a storm whilst you're shivering. What a wimp!
    "In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

    @gietvangent
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