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tyre causes crash ?

andy-vandy-v Posts: 2
edited February 2014 in Road general
Hi All, i had a big crash saturday, broken collar bone, 3 ribs and lost alot of skin, I was riding a Cube with new Schwalbe Ultremo ZX Evo V-Guard Folding Road Tyres, these tyres were given to me as the original ones were recalled due to some instances of them coming off the rim, I was on a fast down hill I warm sunny conditions I had ridden about 2 hours and was breaking quite hard for a corner but still on the straight when the front end started shaking violently and down I went.

A couple of the friends were a bit further back when they joined me one pointed out that I had punctured and that the tyre was off the rim, the inner tube had a little finger nail size hole, he changed the tube (not knowing ifi could ride or not) and put the tyre on just using his hands no levers.

I was wondering if anyone else has heard of this with these tyres or could the blow out have forced the tyre off?

Thanks.
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Posts

  • smidsysmidsy Posts: 5,273
    I am confused what you are asking - can a tyre puncture - yes.

    Can a tyre come off a rim - yes.

    Can you fit tyres without levers - yes.

    Is the tyre at fault for your crash - unlikely.
    Yellow is the new Black.
  • cougiecougie Posts: 22,512
    You came down in a straight line ? Or were you turning by then ?

    Its not that unusual to be able to put a tyre on without levers.

    If you flatted and then turned -that could have taken the tyre off the rim and sent you down.
  • smidsysmidsy Posts: 5,273
    andy-v wrote:
    I was on a fast down hill I warm sunny conditions I had ridden about 2 hours and was breaking quite hard for a corner but still on the straight when the front end started shaking violently and down I went.

    I suspectt hese factors are the cause - not the tyre.

    Oh and just because you post the same thing twice do not expect to get the answer you want :wink:
    Yellow is the new Black.
  • GrillGrill Posts: 5,610
    As above...

    With clinchers it's quite easy for the tyre to blow off the rim. I've seen it with GP4000s which has a very tight bead. If you want your tyres to stay on then you'll need to go with tubs, but that does present a different set of challenges.
    English Cycles V3 | Cervelo P5 | Cervelo T4 | Trek Domane Koppenberg
  • DiscoBoyDiscoBoy Posts: 905
    smidsy wrote:
    Is the tyre at fault for your crash - unlikely.

    No more than any other clincher that punctures on a fast descent, at least.

    One of the many advantages of tubulars is that they are "safer" when they puncture.
    Red bikes are the fastest.
  • mfinmfin Posts: 6,724
    Grill wrote:
    As above...

    With clinchers it's quite easy for the tyre to blow off the rim. I've seen it with GP4000s which has a very tight bead. If you want your tyres to stay on then you'll need to go with tubs, but that does present a different set of challenges.

    That's complete rubbish.
  • mfin wrote:
    Grill wrote:
    As above...

    With clinchers it's quite easy for the tyre to blow off the rim. I've seen it with GP4000s which has a very tight bead. If you want your tyres to stay on then you'll need to go with tubs, but that does present a different set of challenges.

    That's complete rubbish.

    Then explain in which way it is rubbish, rather than flaming other users
  • GrillGrill Posts: 5,610
    mfin wrote:
    Grill wrote:
    As above...

    With clinchers it's quite easy for the tyre to blow off the rim. I've seen it with GP4000s which has a very tight bead. If you want your tyres to stay on then you'll need to go with tubs, but that does present a different set of challenges.

    That's complete rubbish.

    So you're saying that tubs are just as likely to blow off a rim as clinchers? My experience says otherwise...
    English Cycles V3 | Cervelo P5 | Cervelo T4 | Trek Domane Koppenberg
  • mfinmfin Posts: 6,724
    Grill wrote:
    mfin wrote:
    Grill wrote:
    As above...

    With clinchers it's quite easy for the tyre to blow off the rim. I've seen it with GP4000s which has a very tight bead. If you want your tyres to stay on then you'll need to go with tubs, but that does present a different set of challenges.

    That's complete rubbish.

    So you're saying that tubs are just as likely to blow off a rim as clinchers? My experience says otherwise...

    No, I am saying that "If you want your tyres to stay on then you'll need to go with tubs" is complete rubbish. Many people will never have a tyre blow off a rim in their lifetime, a poll would show this, (apart from the fact that it wouldn't because all the voters would be dead so the poll would be empty... but you get the idea).
  • mfin wrote:

    No, I am saying that "If you want your tyres to stay on then you'll need to go with tubs" is complete rubbish. Many people will never have a tyre blow off a rim in their lifetime, a poll would show this, (apart from the fact that it wouldn't because all the voters would be dead so the poll would be empty... but you get the idea).

    Yes and no... for the tyre to blow off you need the tyre to lose pressure quickly and the tyre to travel at considerable speed. But a clincher is held in place by pressure, once the pressure is gone there is nothing to keep the tyre in place... so if the tyre goes flat in a few seconds you don't have the time to slow down and it can happen and it does happen
  • jimwinjimwin Posts: 208
    IME, it's very unusual for a tyre to come off unless it's a bad fit. But you mention you felt a wobble on the descent. At the sort of speed you imply, it could have been frame shimmy which could have caused undue stress on the front tyre causing it to come off.

    Hope you recover quickly.

    PS - the classic way to stop shimmy is to place your knee on the downtube.
  • bucklesbuckles Posts: 694
    Unfortunately this is just one of those things. I dread it happening to me. Hope you're OK.
    25% off your first MyProtein order: sign up via https://www.myprotein.com/referrals.lis ... EE-R29Y&li or use my referral code LEE-R29Y
  • I have no idea whether your tyre was a factor in causing your crash, but sorry to hear about it, and hope you recover fully and quickly.
  • Hi Sorry to hear about your accident, hope your recovery is quick

    I had the same thing on the same tyres, high speed downhill, loud pop loads of vibration, luckily I stayed on the bike but travelled for quite a distance before stopping, on investigation I found a tear in the tyre wall and inner tube though this may have happened on the slowing down phase/ holding on for dear life, but travelling still on a flat tyre.

    I lost confidence in them and changed them for something more sturdy, I don't think there are suited for our road conditions. I didn't find them to be more grippy or faster than any other tyre that I've tried.
  • bianchimoonbianchimoon Posts: 3,942
    You were just plain unlucky, for something as inherently flimsy and light as a racing tyre 99.999% of the time they perform faultlessly and safely, get well soon
    All lies and jest..still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest....
  • cougiecougie Posts: 22,512
    http://youtu.be/yrjAsU6RKaU 21.20 in. Poor Rudy Dhaenens.
  • 964cup964cup Posts: 1,359
    Tyre on with just fingers is normal - I've just been changing tyres on a set of wheels and removed the previous set, and fitted the new set, both without touching a tyre lever. Indeed, tyres on without levers is the recommended approach, to avoid pinching the tube.

    WRT Ultremo ZX (ironically exactly the tyre I was fitting tonight) these are lightweight tyres, and IMO not suited to use in winter as they cut up very easily; rain and spray wash a lot of censored into the road which can damage tyres. Even in summer I've had to chuck more than one away after a single ride because of a cut that was bulging. So I can well believe it punctured; your descending on it then rolled it off the rim and no wonder you came off. (In case I sound hypocritical, I was fitting the tyres as rim protectors - these wheels won't be used until July).

    Sorry to hear about your injuries; get well soon.
  • Four king hell! This very topic scares the hell outta me. Theres one hill where I can hit 50mph, would be hard to stop on a perfect tyre let alone a blown out one. Sounds painful!
  • cougiecougie Posts: 22,512
    I blew a front tyre out coming down Alpe d'Huez.

    In hindsight - I'd inflated them too much - and it was the day after the tour - lots of cars coming down - so I had to do a lot of braking coming down. I was coming into a hairpin when it went...

    Luckily it was a left hander with a run off. Theres not many of those in the Alps - brought it to a halt in a straight line with no drama.

    I dont run those tyres any more and I dont pump them up that hard either !
  • rafletcherrafletcher Posts: 1,155
    smidsy wrote:
    andy-v wrote:
    I was on a fast down hill I warm sunny conditions I had ridden about 2 hours and was breaking quite hard for a corner but still on the straight when the front end started shaking violently and down I went.

    I suspectt hese factors are the cause - not the tyre.
    :

    Leaving aside the tubs vs clincher war (I've always used clinchers, I've neve had one come off the rim fortunately - even after a sudden flat due to a sidewall cut, albeit at low speed on the flat) I think it's far more likely that the OP got a a cut (Ultremos are fragile tyres) or most likely from the description a "tank slapper" (well known to motorcyclists). It happened once to me. Same hill, same bike, ridden for 5 years, but one day on the downhill, not braking, the bars started to oscillate violently. "This is going to hurt" thought I, then hauled on the brakes and headed for the hedge whilst clemping the top tube between my thighs. Luckily the shaking stopped as I slowed without me coming off. Nothing whatsoever to do with the tyres.

    I'm actually quite surprised at the "replacements for some that were blowing off the rim" part of thhe OP. Replecement by whom? Cube? Maybe it's the rim/tyre fit (wider rims being popular to give a better tyre profile?)?

    As to fitting tyres without levers - practice makes pefect. I can fit Marathons to A719 rims withoiut levers. Needs two old toestraps and some patience (and strong thumbs help) but can be dome (there's a video on youtube from SJS cycles showing the technique - I was astounded when it worked!)
  • Team4LukeTeam4Luke Posts: 597
    These are my favourite tyre, but really just for best bike and summer, they do wear rapid and thus more chance of a puncture, pinch or otherwise, no matter everyone should keep their speed down on hills, cyclists really should think more about what you doing downhill, I've seen it go wrong twice and it's not a pretty site to see and attend.
    I have heard of these deforming suddenly into a snake like shape on the rim.
    As for tubs, these are glued on or taped on but this does not mean they have zero chance of coming off the rim, if you suffer a blow out hopefully you may stay upright as unlike a clincher the tub remains in place.
    Team4Luke supports Cardiac Risk in the Young
  • greasedscotsmangreasedscotsman Posts: 7,224
    edited January 2014
    cougie wrote:
    21.20 in. Poor Rudy Dhaenens.

    Erm, is that a tub? :wink:
  • cougiecougie Posts: 22,512
    Yep thats a tub - someone was making the point that tubs are safer.
  • cougiecougie Posts: 22,512
    Team4Luke wrote:
    everyone should keep their speed down on hills, cyclists really should think more about what you doing downhill, I've seen it go wrong twice and it's not a pretty site to see and attend.

    What do you suggest - braking all the way down the hill ? That sounds more dangerous than letting the bike roll.

    What is a safe speed on the bike ? I've flown down every hill I've seen in the last 30 years with no damage. Braking all the way down seems unneccessary to me.
  • cougie wrote:
    Yep thats a tub - someone was making the point that tubs are safer.

    Oops, sorry. Didn't think that's what you were getting at. :oops:
  • cougiecougie Posts: 22,512
    Maybe it was a tad obscure by the time I found that clip... ;-)
  • smidsysmidsy Posts: 5,273
    cougie wrote:
    What is a safe speed on the bike ?

    That depends on a multiple of variables, but if you can not stop then slower than that :D
    Yellow is the new Black.
  • TakeTurnsTakeTurns Posts: 1,075
    All the best with recovery OP, sounds nasty.

    I've found that latex inners hold a decent amount of pressure when punctured. Could be something to consider for those who ride clinchers and may be concerned.
  • Team4LukeTeam4Luke Posts: 597
    cougie wrote:
    Team4Luke wrote:
    everyone should keep their speed down on hills, cyclists really should think more about what you doing downhill, I've seen it go wrong twice and it's not a pretty site to see and attend.

    What do you suggest - braking all the way down the hill ? That sounds more dangerous than letting the bike roll.

    What is a safe speed on the bike ? I've flown down every hill I've seen in the last 30 years with no damage. Braking all the way down seems unneccessary to me.

    Simply, do not accellerate over the top ie don't like some, shove it in a big gear and rev it out to gain extra speed, don't pedal if the descent is slight or soft pedal, brake on and off as you should do to ensure no overheating of the rims and control the speed down.

    Decide yourself for me it's no more than about 30-35mph a speed that I hope I would survive and injuries may not be critical. A lot of speeds cyclist like to shout about as we know are in the region of 40-50+mph. At those speeds should something occur you will not be able to avoid it or get away without critical or fatal injuries.
    Much can happen that we don't like to think about, I know someone who hit a sheep at high speed, sadly he did not survive.
    Things that can and do go wrong:-

    animals running out (seen it - death)
    speed wobble (seen it, aint pretty to see when you are following a friend behind watching a human bounce up and down at god only knows what speed)
    puncture
    hit a hole
    tyre blow out over heated rim
    too fast run wide hit oncoming car or crash (seen my mate run wide, crash his face into the edge of a stone wall)
    component failure ( my braking performance failed on a descent due to appalling rain and farm muck/diesel soaked roads, I am lucky to be here - I had no brakes whatsoever)

    we take it far too much for granted, we have zero clothing protection unlike a motorbiker for example.

    Sorry to be a downer but seen too much and seen to many new inexperienced riders coming in to cycling without any club background and guiance riding poor equipment too.

    take care be safer
    Team4Luke supports Cardiac Risk in the Young
  • ntcntc Posts: 69
    It does happen. Big crash in the Alps last summer. Taking a right bend, rear inner tube let go with big bang - blew the tyre off the rim and dumped me on the ground at about 30 mph. Lucky to get away without any serious injuries, bruised from my hip to my knee and lots of road rash. On another day could have been a broken hip, shoulder etc. Count myself very lucky to walk away and the crash has certainly changed my view of hurtling down mountain roads! Happy to ride up, might get a lift down in future :oops:

    As to what caused it, I will probably never know. Maybe it was a dodgy inner tube, it blew a 6 inch tear in the inner tube seam, rider error, over inflation or a combination of the lot. But it hurt..a lot, so if and when the Alps next call they will be ridden with tubs, at least they should stay on the rim.

    Stay safe!
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