Running is just awful...

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  • markhewitt1978
    markhewitt1978 Posts: 7,614
    That's the thing I've found. Going out for a run is almost instant.

    Going out cycling can be almost impossible to arrange logistically.
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,667
    I got some rollers recently and they pretty much combine the convenience of running with the fun of cycling.
  • Mikey23
    Mikey23 Posts: 5,306
    And of course running is hugely cheaper than cycling. Very little required other than a good pair of trainers and off you go out of the front door...

    Interestingly, the guy I was working with today said he is a runner and did the Plymouth half marathon a couple of years ago. He came 4th in 71 minutes and beat one of the Kenyan internationals. After we finished he was going to drive back to Plymouth and run '12 miles easy'...
  • prb007
    prb007 Posts: 703
    If God had meant us to run - He wouldn't have invented the derailleur :D
    If Wales was flattened out, it'd be bigger than England!
    Planet X Ti Sportive for Sportives & tours
    Orange Alpine 160 for Afan,Alps & dodging trees
    Singlespeed Planet X Kaffenback for dodging potholes
    An On-One Inbred for hard-tail shenanigans...
  • peat
    peat Posts: 1,242
    I've had a go at running recently too. I was staggered at how different it is to cycling (duh) in terms of what muscles you use etc.

    I've started with a 2 mile loop around my town, sticking to the shadows as i don't want people to see me huffing and puffing, and will work upwards when I can manage that comfortably without feeling the need to stop.

    Biggest thing i learnt was to stretch. I naver really stretch for riding, so I didn't for running. After my first attempt, I could barely walk for best part of a week because my quads got so tight.
  • ai_1
    ai_1 Posts: 3,060
    Peat wrote:
    I've had a go at running recently too. I was staggered at how different it is to cycling (duh) in terms of what muscles you use etc.

    I've started with a 2 mile loop around my town, sticking to the shadows as i don't want people to see me huffing and puffing, and will work upwards when I can manage that comfortably without feeling the need to stop.

    Biggest thing i learnt was to stretch. I naver really stretch for riding, so I didn't for running. After my first attempt, I could barely walk for best part of a week because my quads got so tight.
    What sort of stretching are you doing? Supposedly, old style static stretches before you run can do more harm than good and I think this approach has been largely discredited in recent years. I've been doing some dynamic stretching as a warm up and some gentle stretching after I finish (when I'm disciplined enough not to just collapse with a cup of tea). I've been using some routines I found online in an attempt to combine warm-up, stretching and core work into a few minutes before/after each run. Only been doing these a few weeks but it seems to be working. The routines I'm using and others I intend to try are in the videos below. I've been mostly doing the first one so far as a run warm-up which does only take about 5 minutes:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GLrKr54yA0
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-K_CiRml-vQ
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KRpJg7r7bE
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xS8jhZq1pJo
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZ4U-7mcCSo

    If you've any other good stretching info please share!
  • GiantMike
    GiantMike Posts: 3,139
    I'm getting back into running again and I'm quite enjoying it. As as been mentioned already, I like the immediacy of it rather than the 'day out' effet of a good ride. I managed to 'pop out' for a 10k yesterday, from leaving the house to getting dressed after my shower was 60 mins. IT TAKES ME AN HOUR JUST TO GET MY CYCLING KIT TOGETHER.
  • Mikey23
    Mikey23 Posts: 5,306
    Yup, I know that feeling. Takes me 60 minutes just to get my overshoes on! And the hour or so it takes to clean the bike after....
  • peat
    peat Posts: 1,242
    Ai_1 wrote:

    What sort of stretching are you doing? Lots of info......

    If you've any other good stretching info please share!

    Cheers for the links, I will check them out!

    I'm afraid i bring very little to the table. I just do the 'traditional' stretches and repeat every few hours in the day after a run as I can feel my legs tightening when sat at my desk.

    One thing I think will help me, but I am reluctant to start chucking cash at it like i do with bikes, is a better pair of shoes. I am pretty flat footed, even more so when i get tired, so I think i need some better cushioning to save my shins/knees.
  • ai_1
    ai_1 Posts: 3,060
    Peat wrote:
    Ai_1 wrote:

    What sort of stretching are you doing? Lots of info......

    If you've any other good stretching info please share!

    Cheers for the links, I will check them out!

    I'm afraid i bring very little to the table. I just do the 'traditional' stretches and repeat every few hours in the day after a run as I can feel my legs tightening when sat at my desk.

    One thing I think will help me, but I am reluctant to start chucking cash at it like i do with bikes, is a better pair of shoes. I am pretty flat footed, even more so when i get tired, so I think i need some better cushioning to save my shins/knees.
    As I mentioned in earlier posts, I'm of the opinion that lots of cushioning is more likely to exacerbate most problems by masking the symptoms and making it less likely you'll cure the cause.
    I should stress that I'm not an expert. These are just my personal observations, experiences and opinions.

    I used to have sore knees, occasional shin splint problems, occasional sore lower back and sore hip back when I was wearing supportive, cushioned running shoes. The conventional wisdom is that you need to protect yourself from hard surfaces and use arch supports and orthotics to correct foot "defects" and biomechanical issues. I was sold supportive shoes to correct over-pronation and was told that my biomechanics were pretty bad.
    I was able to run in these shoes but the problem wasn't solved, just partially circumvented.
    There were two real problems. Firstly, an old back injury had caused me to change my posture so that my pelvis was tilted forwards slightly, causing my feet to toe out contributing to poor mechanics including the over-pronation and a slight knock kneed tendency. Secondly my running technique was bad - I was over-striding and therefore heel striking badly. I was pounding the ground instead of using a fluid motion. My feet were doing nothing to control or absorb the shock loads. The heel cushioning was dulling the shock somewhat but it was still battering my knees, hips and back. My feet weren't doing much and were actually pretty weak.

    I ended up with severe knee problems and took a break from running. Every time I tried to start again over the next 3 years my knee problems came back. I took up cycling instead.
    Then I decided to try running one more time but with a different approach. I left the protective, cushioned trainers and got some really minimal shoes (Merrell Trail Gloves). I consciously shortened my stride which felt a little odd at first but it got rid of my heel striking and raised my cadence. I started by running very short distances at a fairly quick pace. Suddenly I had no knee, hip or back problems and was enjoying running for the first time in years. I did have tight calves and achilles for the first couple of months and my feet sometimes felt a little fatigued but I felt good and had no injuries. This got me to the point where I could run 5km+ at a good pace, in comfort and without any fear of injury. I was still toeing out slightly and had a slightly clumsy stride. A few months later I went to a physio who identified my postural problems and I started doing some core strengthening. I've been a bit lazy with the core work (it's just no fun!) but what I have done has helped a lot and I now have a pretty good running style. I can comfortably run 15km at what I consider a respectable pace. Still getting faster with no injuries and I'm planning my first half marathon in early April.

    I think the approach of "correcting" biomechanical problems using shoes is fundamentally flawed. It seems analogous to over-medication. It can become a vicious cycle whereby you end up treating symptoms caused by things you've done to correct earlier problems. You correct weakness by providing support which causes further weakness. Surely the best cure to flat footedness would be to strengthen your feet; excessive cushioning and arch support isolate and weaken your feet. As I said I'm not an expert on this so do look into it yourself before deciding how to proceed but I would urge you not to automatically go the route of supportive shoes and orthotics. They don't really solve the problems. However they're currently the approach shoe vendors and most physios will advise because they're the conventional and therefore safest and most profitable option from their point of view.
    I can't think of another part of our bodies that we're advised to isolate and neglect instead of correcting the weakness. I suspect physios will soon start suggesting more minimal footwear but we'll have to wait and see.

    Just make sure not to rush it if you go the minimalist route. Increase your cadence and start gradually.
  • andyrr
    andyrr Posts: 1,819
    Sorry if I am butting in here but as a long-time cyclist around 2 years ago I started giving running a go when really the last time I had done any was probably 20+ years previously.
    Initial great pain (knees and shins) but I pushed through that and then a big achilles issue that forced 2 weeks rest and now I can run 10 miles without pain other than very sore and tired legs - much more so than cycling !
    The ease of just 'going for a run' in comparison to the faff that riding takes is great and coupled with the amount of effort that running takes means that I do love it for that although I'd always say that I was a cyclist that runs as opposed to a runner who cycles !

    My point - I am now pretty much pain free apart from the occasional minor twinge (I am mid-40s so it's probably just the approach of old age) but I wonder if I should just continue with my type of shoe or is a barefoot-style one worth if trying out ?
    I'm running in pretty standard New Balance shoes that are probably heading for renewal fairly soon so it might be the ideal time, to try out an alternative, if that is worthwhile.

    I think that in general, especially for those pressed for time, ie those with family and work etc, running is great as you feel that you can achieve a decent workout in a sub-hour window whereas to do do a decent bike-based outdoors workout is not so achieveable in that sub-60 mins slot, if you allow for sorting out kit, heading out to urban area for quieter roads etc.
  • mercia_man
    mercia_man Posts: 1,431
    Glad to hear you have got into running the proper way - gradually, Andy. It's great hearing from fellow closet runners on this forum.

    I started off with highly cushioned New Balance shoes when I took up running about seven years ago. I first switched to lightweight Mizuno Elixirs, which felt quicker and more comfortable. And I am now using Inov-8 minimalist road shoes having found that Inov-8 fell shoes are just like wearing slippers. Look up Inov-8's website as they have some very interesting theory stuff on natural running. They grade their shoes on a chevron arrow system - 3 arrows for newcomers to natural running who want more cushioning, followed by 2, 1 and 0. I started with 3 arrow Road-x 255' which I still use for training, and 2 arrow Road-x 233 which I use for racing. I really like them.

    I now find I can't run comfortably in highly cushioned shoes with built up high heels.

    For fell running, which really is the ultimate running experience if you are willing to push your body to the max!, cushioned shoes are unsuitable and even dangerous as they make it easy for you to turn your ankle. Fell shoes are ultra lightweight and minimalist to enable your foot to get as close as possible to the ground. And with heavily lugged soles made of sticky, Grand Prix car style rubber, they give fantastic grip.
  • Mikey23
    Mikey23 Posts: 5,306
    As a couple of folks have mentioned it... It's not a good idea to stretch cold muscles. Fair enough after but never before. Warm up with dynamic drills ie knee raises, heel flicks, side to side etc increasing in intensity until you are ready to go. UKA level 2 here ...
  • overlord2
    overlord2 Posts: 339
    Mikey23 wrote:
    As a couple of folks have mentioned it... It's not a good idea to stretch cold muscles. Fair enough after but never before. Warm up with dynamic drills ie knee raises, heel flicks, side to side etc increasing in intensity until you are ready to go. UKA level 2 here ...

    I don't agree you should have good flexibility poor flexibility on cold muscles to me indicates you are not flexible enough. I stretch 3 times a day on cold muscles.

    You don't see people warming up before yoga classes.
  • ai_1
    ai_1 Posts: 3,060
    Overlord2 wrote:
    Mikey23 wrote:
    As a couple of folks have mentioned it... It's not a good idea to stretch cold muscles. Fair enough after but never before. Warm up with dynamic drills ie knee raises, heel flicks, side to side etc increasing in intensity until you are ready to go. UKA level 2 here ...

    I don't agree you should have good flexibility poor flexibility on cold muscles to me indicates you are not flexible enough. I stretch 3 times a day on cold muscles.

    You don't see people warming up before yoga classes.
    One's level of flexibility is irrelevant to the point. The point is not how much range of motion is required to achieve a stretch but rather whether static stretches when cold are beneficial. The consensus as I understand it has shifted to suggest that dynamic stretching is a better idea before exercise and any static stretching is best done when warm. The fact that many people do not adhere to this practice doesn't make it inaccurate.
  • Mikey23
    Mikey23 Posts: 5,306
    http://www.runbritain.com/training/runs ... stretching

    Not the one I was looking for but it will do. UK athletics coaches are trained to lead dynamic drills before activity and static stretches afterwards if required by the activity. Ai-1 sums it up very well
  • Mikey23
    Mikey23 Posts: 5,306
    http://www.runnersworld.com/the-startin ... er-my-runs

    And another.. It's probably not going to cause you any harm if you do but it isn't recommended. From memory, I think this was the result of research by UKA into why so many competition athletes were getting injured and it was found that this was contributing. So the fashion is now for dynamics before activity. I would coach my group in three sets of knee raises, bum kicks, side to sides etc at increasing intensity prior to activity with the aim of raising heart rate and warming muscles

    Having said that, I would always stretch my hamstrings before a race :-)
  • bompington
    bompington Posts: 7,674
    Bompette's athletics group do a warm up which consists of a slow jog for several laps, with slightly faster strides at intervals, the drills (fast, dynamic exercises - knee raises, bum kicks as referred to by Mikey above) for about 10-15 minutes, then static stretches, then short strides and sprints. This is a middle/long distance group.
    This may or may not be the best way to do it but since there is one olympian in the group and the coach in charge is an olympic medal winner, it might possibly represent something close to current best practice :-)
  • southdownswolf
    southdownswolf Posts: 1,525
    My current stretching regime involves stupidly hopping around while trying to get my running tights on, before attempted to reach my feet to slip on my trainers. Is there anything else I should be doing?
    http://www.stuartmole.co.uk/
  • upperoilcan
    upperoilcan Posts: 1,180
    southdownswolf wrote:
    My current stretching regime involves stupidly hopping around while trying to get my running tights on, before attempted to reach my feet to slip on my trainers. Is there anything else I should be doing?


    No ! This is even too much stretching,I have not done any stretching prior to my running in any shape or form since i began. ( a good few years now)

    Neither do i "warm down" after a run.
    Rest periods are by far more important.
    Cervelo S5 Ultegra Di2.
  • ai_1
    ai_1 Posts: 3,060
    upperoilcan wrote:
    southdownswolf wrote:
    My current stretching regime involves stupidly hopping around while trying to get my running tights on, before attempted to reach my feet to slip on my trainers. Is there anything else I should be doing?


    No ! This is even too much stretching,I have not done any stretching prior to my running in any shape or form since i began. ( a good few years now)

    Neither do i "warm down" after a run.
    Rest periods are by far more important.
    Have you any evidence for that?
    Just saying that one shouldn't stretch because you don't do it is pretty unconvincing.
    Maybe you don't like stretching and maybe you can get away with it but that doesn't make it good practice or something you should advise.
    To be honest the fact that you state "I have not done any stretching prior to my running in any shape or form since i began" makes you particularly unqualified to give advice since you've no basis for comparison! :wink:
  • PerformingMonkey
    PerformingMonkey Posts: 218
    Been running regularly for 5-6 years now. Previous comments in this thread that running isn't as bad as some cyclists think. No coaching qualifications but do listen to the advice of others (friends who are coaches and sports scientists as well as the great team at my gym).

    I do find that a short warm up does help even if it is just a quick jog and jump around the start area but I do tend to spend more time warming down, mostly through stretches. If I don't warm up due to lack of time I do find I maybe won't match a previous PB but the impact of not warming down seems to impact more in the long term and leave me maybe needing two rest days rather than one.

    I am no longer a running club member (all a bit middle class and cliquey for me) but I do remember that they did place a certain degree of emphasis on a warm up and warm down.
  • Paulie W
    Paulie W Posts: 1,492
    Remember years ago playing on a sports team and we warmed up with dynamic stretches although I think they were called 'physical jerks' then. New coach came in, told us to forget all that as we would hurt ourselves and we began each session with about 20 minutes of static stretching before we did any kind of movement. And here we are back to the physical jerks!
  • upperoilcan
    upperoilcan Posts: 1,180
    edited February 2014
    Ai_1 wrote:
    Have you any evidence for that?
    Just saying that one shouldn't stretch because you don't do it is pretty unconvincing.
    Maybe you don't like stretching and maybe you can get away with it but that doesn't make it good practice or something you should advise.
    To be honest the fact that you state "I have not done any stretching prior to my running in any shape or form since i began" makes you particularly unqualified to give advice since you've no basis for comparison! :wink:


    Tongue in cheek comments ole boy,you stretch as much as you all see fit as i have no ned to....

    and yes,not so long ago there were indeed findings that found stretching can actually do more harm than good before exercise....

    Im not going to trawl the net to look for it tho....

    And neither am i going to "advise" anyone on what they should/should not do.

    Each to their own.
    Cervelo S5 Ultegra Di2.
  • ai_1
    ai_1 Posts: 3,060
    upperoilcan wrote:
    ...and yes,not so long ago their was indeed findings that found stretching can actually do more harm than good before exercise....

    Im not going to trawl the net to look for it tho.....
    I don't disagree with you there. I don't do static stretches before running, only after. I usually warm-up with some dynamic stretches of light intensity, increasing as I warm up.
  • mpatts
    mpatts Posts: 1,010
    Overlord2 wrote:
    ...And people do far far too much too quickly.

    Its taken me 20 years to be able to 'just' pop out for a run without really thinking about it.

    If its taken me 20 years to get to this point there is now way you can be up to knocking out 10 mile runs without having built up the mileage slowly imo you should be looking at 0 - 10 miles in about 12 months averaging about 1 mile a month increase and doing that every 2-3 days at least or 3 times a week.

    I am a freak.....first run Dec 27th 2012 - 5k, 27 mins. My 5k PB is now 19 mins....and I have run 3 half marathons (PB 1,30), a couple of 10k's, and a full marathon.
    Insert bike here:
  • RideOnTime
    RideOnTime Posts: 4,712
    smidsy wrote:
    Swimming may be a good stop gap.


    Topical... :D:D:D
  • kingofthetailwind
    kingofthetailwind Posts: 575
    I run once a week. 3 to 5 miles. Just enough to keep my pace at 7.30 to 8 minutes per mile.

    How else are you going to chase after someone who has nicked your bike?
  • RideOnTime
    RideOnTime Posts: 4,712
    or do your Benny Hill impression.
  • southdownswolf
    southdownswolf Posts: 1,525
    KingOfTheTailwind wrote:
    I run once a week. 3 to 5 miles. Just enough to keep my pace at 7.30 to 8 minutes per mile.

    How else are you going to chase after someone who has nicked your bike?


    Do you cycle miles 1 to 2 first? :wink:
    http://www.stuartmole.co.uk/

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