If you were in charge...

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Comments

  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,391
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    (and there is none around who can match Pantani)

    I hate to be a d1ck about this but there is another reason why there is none around who can match Pantani. Even with out that it may be that there is no one in the race who is that much better at climbing than the others.

    It does nt take Frenchie to see a myriad of photos of powermeters, from Sky to Astana and from Cav to Quintanaa, with the power reading covered up for races anyway...

    Rich or RR will be able to tell you but what was the race that Sky p1ssed all over that prompted a whole load of yawnsome posts about powermetes until (I think) Richie Porte said that they'd actually been on the compact cranks and so hadnt had any power data anyway.
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,255
    ddraver wrote:
    I hate to be a d1ck about this but there is another reason why there is none around who can match Pantani. Even with out that it may be that there is no one in the race who is that much better at climbing than the others.

    I don't like to erase history on the grounds of doping... I leave that to the UCI and ASO.
    Nobody is questioning Pantani's addiction to EPO in a time where everybody was on EPO... the point is as a junior, kind of 18 years old and not able to have access to EPO, he was still faster up the climbs than the PROs he was training with.

    Drugs or no drugs, he was by a long mile the best climber of his generation, probably the best climber the world has ever seen. He would have been an even better climber, had his career not been stopped and plagued by horrific injuries. At the time, late 1990s I remember the commentators saying they had never seen anyone going up a mountain humiliating opponents like that... not Merckx, not Ocana, not Gaul, not Coppi...

    My point is that the best we've got is Contador when he is at his best... and I have not seen Contador or Schleck doing the things Pantani was doing... Froome is not a pure climber and has excited me as much as a bag of frozen peas for dinner, I'm afraid. Nibali has excited me, but in the absence of opponents he was playing the role of the climber... Hence my point... in a level field, remove electronics and you might see some action... with the electronics we need another Pantani to have some fun. We don't want more drugs, we just want less control over the races
    left the forum March 2023
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,391
    Perhaps becasue Froome, Contador and Schleck are nt that good - Contador certainly makes use of the bit of tape...
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,255
    ddraver wrote:
    Perhaps becasue Froome, Contador and Schleck are nt that good - Contador certainly makes use of the bit of tape...

    They are good... they are not outstanding. Of the three, Schleck is the one with most potential, but it's getting a bit late for him... he's had his chances, he's taken a couple, he's missed many, not sure he can be back to his best... and his best is not even enough... he needs to be better than his previous best. He needs proper coaching, which I think is missing in his team. He might be content with his Yellow Jersey and his Liege... nobody in his family did better.
    The little Colombian... Quintana... is a little Colombian, we have seen many small Colombian over the past 3 decades... none of them lasted a long time at the top and unless his best is better than what we have seen, he's not good enough to be the next big thing.

    So, still waiting for the next big thing in climbing... plenty of good rouleurs... plenty of great sprinters... missing that mountain magic, I'm afraid...
    left the forum March 2023
  • LutherB
    LutherB Posts: 544
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    ... the point is as a junior, kind of 18 years old and not able to have access to EPO, he was still faster up the climbs than the PROs he was training with....

    Do you have any links/ references for that Ugo? In his book, Rendell has him possibly doping, from the data files he saw, from 1991, 8 months before his pro debut, and on the EPO from '93....it's just that using Pantani as an example isn't very good as it seems as a pro we never saw him au natural.
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,255
    LutherB wrote:
    Do you have any links/ references for that Ugo? In his book, Rendell has him possibly doping, from the data files he saw, from 1991, 8 months before his pro debut, and on the EPO from '93....it's just that using Pantani as an example isn't very good as it seems as a pro we never saw him au natural.

    Stories from the late Luciano Pezzi... apparently as a lad he was training with the PROs in the Appennines and dropping them all up the climbs... so the rumours brought him to his first contract as a junior. I don't have references, I just remember these interviews on TV in 1994, when he came out at the Giro
    left the forum March 2023
  • mm1
    mm1 Posts: 1,063
    Its a while since I read Rendell's book, but I seem to recall a very strong suggestion that Marco was on the gear as a junior. Sadly doping in the lower ranks in Italy was (is?) pretty widespread, just part of the scene with very large and competitive race fields. FFS, they even dope on the Gran Fondo scene.
  • LutherB
    LutherB Posts: 544
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    LutherB wrote:
    Do you have any links/ references for that Ugo? In his book, Rendell has him possibly doping, from the data files he saw, from 1991, 8 months before his pro debut, and on the EPO from '93....it's just that using Pantani as an example isn't very good as it seems as a pro we never saw him au natural.

    Stories from the late Luciano Pezzi... apparently as a lad he was training with the PROs in the Appennines and dropping them all up the climbs... so the rumours brought him to his first contract as a junior. I don't have references, I just remember these interviews on TV in 1994, when he came out at the Giro

    Cheers Ugo, will look it up.
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,255
    mm1 wrote:
    FFS, they even dope on the Gran Fondo scene.

    They do... In fact the Lituanian great hero Raimondas Rumsas was winning loads of them until recently. Jamie Burrows, the latest Planet X testimonial, was quite successful in the Granfondo circuit too, I seem to recall? :wink:
    left the forum March 2023
  • LutherB
    LutherB Posts: 544
    I would like all riders in black shorts too
    Only leaders/KoM/Points jerseys allowed - no matching shorts/socks/bikes/glasses, etc.
    No race radio's
    Better way of riders ID for TV
    WT points count towards the team and not the individual rider - if cycling is a team effort it seems that the team should benefit rather than a rider being able to piss off to another team and they get the point benefits
    Lifetime ban for doping from the first offence
  • mike6
    mike6 Posts: 1,199
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    mike6 wrote:
    DeVlaeminck wrote:
    Some riders/teams do use power meters to measure effort during a race - whether it is an effective tactic is debatable but I've seen some on here argue that doesn't happen.

    Thats all well and good, but during a race, if you are stuffed on a stage, having a power meter telling you how badly you are going won't help you ride any better.

    The problem is that if you ride with the PM, you will never get stuffed...
    In the past (and excuse the present tense and future) if A attacks on a climb, B and C will chase him... now B checks his stats and decides it's best to slightly up the power and slowly go back to him, while C thinks it's a good idea and sticks to B's wheel... it's great for B and C, less so for A and incredibly boring for us. That's why in the absence of an outstanding climber (and there is none around who can match Pantani), stage races are terribly boring. How can a mountain like Zoncolan only split riders by a handful of seconds? It's only possible with technology... brain and guts will produce much bigger splits...

    You are making the assumption that because rider A can produce X power in training he can produce it 2 days from the end of a GT. You are also assuming riders never have a bad, or even an indifferent day. Its the same with heart monitors, they only confirm the way you are riding, they can not help you.
    Even if your theory was correct, you have to have the fitness and ability to ride back up to the breakaway. If you are not feeling good or are on your limit, that is it, power meter or not.
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,667
    I'd like an identification system based on the end of year team rankings, so the team that gets top spot is automatically given number 1-9, this means in every WT race they ride for the next season they wear these numbers. It is up to the team to split them out between riders.

    I'd like life time bans for convicted dopers, with all results removed from the record.

    Black shorts with leaders jersey's.

    No transfer of points if a rider moves. The points belong to the team.

    Keep race radios.
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,255
    mike6 wrote:
    You are making the assumption that because rider A can produce X power in training he can produce it 2 days from the end of a GT. You are also assuming riders never have a bad, or even an indifferent day. Its the same with heart monitors, they only confirm the way you are riding, they can not help you.
    Even if your theory was correct, you have to have the fitness and ability to ride back up to the breakaway. If you are not feeling good or are on your limit, that is it, power meter or not.

    I am making a lot of assumptions, but I can't remember a time when the Tour de France was so damn boring... it's been incredibly boring since Armstrong left... and increasingly tedious over the past 3-4 years...
    since we can't reintroduce EPO, something else needs to be done... I blame the electronics, I might be barking at the wrong tree, but it seems to me these riders are told what to do by DS and computers, while I would like them to think with their heads... that would make for some unpredictable racing
    left the forum March 2023
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,255
    mike6 wrote:
    You are making the assumption that because rider A can produce X power in training he can produce it 2 days from the end of a GT. You are also assuming riders never have a bad, or even an indifferent day. Its the same with heart monitors, they only confirm the way you are riding, they can not help you.
    Even if your theory was correct, you have to have the fitness and ability to ride back up to the breakaway. If you are not feeling good or are on your limit, that is it, power meter or not.

    I am making a lot of assumptions, but I can't remember a time when the Tour de France was so damn boring... it's been incredibly boring since Armstrong left... and increasingly tedious over the past 3-4 years...
    since we can't reintroduce EPO, something else needs to be done... I blame the electronics, I might be barking at the wrong tree, but it seems to me these riders are told what to do by DS and computers, while I would like them to think with their heads... that would make for some unpredictable racing
    left the forum March 2023
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,255
    mike6 wrote:
    You are making the assumption that because rider A can produce X power in training he can produce it 2 days from the end of a GT. You are also assuming riders never have a bad, or even an indifferent day. Its the same with heart monitors, they only confirm the way you are riding, they can not help you.
    Even if your theory was correct, you have to have the fitness and ability to ride back up to the breakaway. If you are not feeling good or are on your limit, that is it, power meter or not.

    I am making a lot of assumptions, but I can't remember a time when the Tour de France was so damn boring... it's been incredibly boring since Armstrong left... and increasingly tedious over the past 3-4 years...
    since we can't reintroduce EPO, something else needs to be done... I blame the electronics, I might be barking at the wrong tree, but it seems to me these riders are told what to do by DS and computers, while I would like them to think with their heads... that would make for some unpredictable racing
    left the forum March 2023
  • mike6
    mike6 Posts: 1,199
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    mike6 wrote:
    You are making the assumption that because rider A can produce X power in training he can produce it 2 days from the end of a GT. You are also assuming riders never have a bad, or even an indifferent day. Its the same with heart monitors, they only confirm the way you are riding, they can not help you.
    Even if your theory was correct, you have to have the fitness and ability to ride back up to the breakaway. If you are not feeling good or are on your limit, that is it, power meter or not.

    I am making a lot of assumptions, but I can't remember a time when the Tour de France was so damn boring... it's been incredibly boring since Armstrong left... and increasingly tedious over the past 3-4 years...
    since we can't reintroduce EPO, something else needs to be done... I blame the electronics, I might be barking at the wrong tree, but it seems to me these riders are told what to do by DS and computers, while I would like them to think with their heads... that would make for some unpredictable racing

    I can see your point, or points If I read your last three posts. He He. But, I have not found the last few Tours boring. Surely a doped Armstrong winning 7 in a row was boring? The last three, at least, I was not sure who was going to win until well into the final week.
    It seems to be more a war of attrition now than the breakaway fest it was in the EPO heyday, but the Tour was always supposed to be survival of the fittest.
    I dont see a lot of difference from 10 or even 20 years ago, except for the lack of barely believable (read doped) attacks of years gone by. Perhaps what we are seeing now is the price we pay for a cleaner peloton.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,702
    Ah here's a controversial one. I'd ban journos asking riders about them doping on record unless they provided evidence I deemed sufficient.


    And a results sheet doesn't count.
    _
  • knedlicky
    knedlicky Posts: 3,097
    My pick of the suggestions:
    iainf72 wrote:
    Time bonuses in all stage races
    Salsiccia1 wrote:
    Bring back the combined jersey in the TDF simply because it's the coolest jersey of all time.
    mike6 wrote:
    Change the TTT to … TT relay. Yes, all 9 riders of each team over a course of, say, 10k.
    Or alternately, have the times based on the last rider home, not the fifth as now.
    suspectdevice wrote:
    Must have at least one uphill TT in each GT
    mike6 wrote:
    Names on back of jerseys, like Pantani's team tried a couple of times.
    Names on the front would be good for some roadside spectators too.
    DeVlaeminck wrote:
    Ban power meters in racing, ... race radio too.
    rayjay wrote:
    No same time on any stage. If you crash at 1km and lose time then tough.
    morstar wrote:
    Riders start each stage staggered by their time gap on GC.
    I would definitely do this for TTs.
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    If a rider gets a bottle where he is not supposed to, he gets disqualified, not penalised by a handful of seconds.
    (Some of the above have been mentioned more than once, but couldn’t quote everyone who recommended the same ideas)

    I add:

    - Riders who crash out in Tours can be substituted, so their teams aren’t disadvantaged by a reduced numbers of team members. Introduced substitutes can take stage victories and acquire Green Jersey- and KOM- points but are excluded from the overall time classification. No substitutes, though, for riders who finish outside the time limit or simply abandon for more indeterminate reasons
    - Some stages to have times taken about the halfway point as well as at the finish, so that a breakaway which leads by say 10 mins at halfway but eventually gets caught, does gain 10 mins timewise in the GC.
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,157
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    If a rider gets a bottle where he is not supposed to, he gets disqualified, not penalised by a handful of seconds.
    Amongst some pretty dumb suggestions, this is the most moronic so far.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,702
    Let's hear yours Rich.

    Smaller teams is an obvious one.

    Good way to find out your pet peeves.
    _
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,157
    edited December 2013
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Let's hear yours Rich.
    Massive financial restructuring (that needs someone with better business sense than me)

    All classics as a whole weekend event. Sportif, women's race, junior race, main event.

    Revise the calendar (and the nature of some of the events) so that big names face off more often throughout the season. (This could be done in conjunction with the next point).

    Make a bigger deal of the WT rankings - team ones not individual. Top 13 get a licence for the next year, next three have to reapply with other teams (only 16 WT teams). Points penalties for doping offences.

    Vuelta down to 16 days (with one rest day). Possibly think about the Giro too.

    Keep race radios but make it available to TV.

    Shorter stages in stage races (as well as smaller teams).

    Cut down the media commitments of stage race leaders - press conference when they take the jersey, but then every other day.

    Run a women's Tour de France in conjunction with the men's Dauphine. And move the Giro Donne to August.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • rayjay
    rayjay Posts: 1,384
    I don't like the trend of going up a mountain followed by 20k or so of flat. It's pointless.

    If you are going to put a mountain near the end of a stage then make it count.

    The Tour of Briton was a perfect example of this. A waste of what could have been an exciting finish between Martin and Quintana.
  • salsiccia1
    salsiccia1 Posts: 3,725
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    I am making a lot of assumptions, but I can't remember a time when the Tour de France was so damn boring... it's been incredibly boring since Armstrong left... and increasingly tedious over the past 3-4 years...

    Have to disagree there - 2011 was brilliant, possibly the best since the late 80s. The last 2 haven't been great from neutral's point of view, mind...
    It's only a bit of sport, Mun. Relax and enjoy the racing.
  • greasedscotsman
    greasedscotsman Posts: 6,962
    Would a jersey like this help with rider identification?

    1249411013_0.jpg

    Obviously each rider wouldn't have a picture of Vinokourov on their jersey, but their own portrait! :wink:
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,255
    RichN95 wrote:
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    If a rider gets a bottle where he is not supposed to, he gets disqualified, not penalised by a handful of seconds.
    Amongst some pretty dumb suggestions, this is the most moronic so far.

    ... or you could also re-word it as... :?:
    left the forum March 2023
  • Yellow Peril
    Yellow Peril Posts: 4,466
    With regard to a women's TdF I can't see how they need a separately organised event.

    Surely all it requires is a depart that is say around the half way point of a regular tour stage on the same day. I can't see there being any overlap if they are starting circa 100km ahead and they could even depart an hour ahead.

    By doing this the infrastructure for each tour stage services 2 races. Around half of the roadside viewers get to see 2 races and TV can cover both races at the same time which would raise the profile of women's racing.
    @JaunePeril

    Winner of the Bike Radar Pro Race Wiggins Hour Prediction Competition
  • johnboy183
    johnboy183 Posts: 832
    Just my two pennethworth about identifying riders. Why not have the rider with a number that ends in 1 wearing a blue helmet in all teams. The rider with number 2 has a red helmet, 3 a green helmet etc?
  • gpreeves
    gpreeves Posts: 454
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    RichN95 wrote:
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    If a rider gets a bottle where he is not supposed to, he gets disqualified, not penalised by a handful of seconds.
    Amongst some pretty dumb suggestions, this is the most moronic so far.

    ... or you could also re-word it as... :?:

    My worry with this suggestion would be to do with the safety of the riders.

    If the past 20 years has taught us anything, it's that the riders will take risks with their health if it improves their chances of winning. You don't want to possibly (even if the chance is very small) risk creating a situation where a dehydrated rider chooses to carry on without water for the sake of not getting disqualified.
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,391
    ^^Thats a good call - a bit like a captains armband in football. I like that....
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • gpreeves
    gpreeves Posts: 454
    johnboy183 wrote:
    Just my two pennethworth about identifying riders. Why not have the rider with a number that ends in 1 wearing a blue helmet in all teams. The rider with number 2 has a red helmet, 3 a green helmet etc?

    I suggested something similar, along the lines of jockey style helmet patterns. Apparently it's been done before and didn't really work. Does anybody know when this was?

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