Michael Rogers Positive for Clenbuterol
Comments
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Jez mon wrote:So (one) theory seems to be that it's from a botched blood bag. Fair enough, but I have some questions...why on earth go to the expense and effort of blood doping, for some end of season chippers half way round the world, which no one really pays attention to? (not to mention, the logistics of carting blood bags to Asia?)
But if that's disregarded, then he just took it straight up, but that doesn't really make much sense either, (as far as I know) you would generally use clen to shed weight at the start of the season.
So that leaves contamination...or my personal theory, Sky are so good at doping that they put a tracer in their drugs which is automatically set off sometime after the rider leaves the team...
Clen is not just for weight loss. Its has excellent properties to open up the airways. Very good for short races when you're breathing hard and need to smash it hard. The phet element keeps you jumping like crazy even when jet lagged and tired.
Chronic asthma suffers will be prescribed clen as it clears the airways of mucus and relaxes the bronchiolar.
Its a good drug.
Cortisone is not always favored because it puffs you up - ie its very obvious if you use too much of it. Clen shreds some water and you lose zero muscle mass.
But the key is the airways. Most beneficial.0 -
Airways are pretty much fully dilated unless you are asthmatic, so beta agonists do nothing to normal airway resistance.
I don't think clenbuterol is licenced for use in Europe or North America.0 -
Mad_Malx wrote:Airways are pretty much fully dilated unless you are asthmatic, so beta agonists do nothing to normal airway resistance.
I don't think clenbuterol is licenced for use in Europe or North America.
Have you seen the UCI report on the abuse of asthma medications in cycling?In many countries such as the USA, Australia and most of Europe, Clenbuterol is only legal for use in horses, in the treatment of asthma. However, in the UK and Canada possession and purchase for private use is not illegal, although it is an offense in the UK to supply or have intent to supply clenbuterol. It is important to bear in mind that if someone was found to be in possession of a large quantity of clenbuterol they may be deemed to be intending to supply – and may be prosecuted.
In addition to the legal clenbuterol preparations for medicinal use, there is a black-market in clenbuterol. There is a risk of buying counterfeit clenbuterol, which may have little, if any, active ingredients and, even worse, may be contaminated. Often, clenbuterol is illegally imported from other countries such as Mexico and Canada into the U.S.0 -
Even if bronchodilation were useful, then all a rider needs is a TUE for a legal bronchodilator, which a disproportionate fraction of the peleton have. Much safer than using a banned drug for the same purpose.
Pharmacology of clenbuterol and legal beta agonists are VERY similar, any differences are likely due to duration of action. So any effects on cardiovascular system or fat burn could be achieved by high/frequent dose legal therapeutic.0 -
whiteboytrash wrote:Mad_Malx wrote:Airways are pretty much fully dilated unless you are asthmatic, so beta agonists do nothing to normal airway resistance.
I don't think clenbuterol is licenced for use in Europe or North America.
Have you seen the UCI report on the abuse of asthma medications in cycling?In many countries such as the USA, Australia and most of Europe, Clenbuterol is only legal for use in horses, in the treatment of asthma. However, in the UK and Canada possession and purchase for private use is not illegal, although it is an offense in the UK to supply or have intent to supply clenbuterol. It is important to bear in mind that if someone was found to be in possession of a large quantity of clenbuterol they may be deemed to be intending to supply – and may be prosecuted.
In addition to the legal clenbuterol preparations for medicinal use, there is a black-market in clenbuterol. There is a risk of buying counterfeit clenbuterol, which may have little, if any, active ingredients and, even worse, may be contaminated. Often, clenbuterol is illegally imported from other countries such as Mexico and Canada into the U.S.
I don't understand the first sentence - are we talking about asthma in horses? It definitely isn't licenced for humans in the UK, or I think EU or USA.0 -
Mad_Malx wrote:Even if bronchodilation were useful, then all a rider needs is a TUE for a legal bronchodilator, which a disproportionate fraction of the peloton have. Much safer than using a banned drug for the same purpose.
Pharmacology of clenbuterol and legal beta agonists are VERY similar, any differences are likely due to duration of action. So any effects on cardiovascular system or fat burn could be achieved by high/frequent dose legal therapeutic.
Even coughed on a ride and spat out a big green and brown mulch of salvia?
Try breathing through that on a 21km climb at 12% 8)The issue of medical waivers has so far flown under the radar even though the percentage of asthmatics in cycling is peculiar, Franke said, because the condition affects only about 8 percent to 10 percent of the general population.
At times, UCI officials "have graded up to 80 percent of riders as asthmatics. The only surprising thing is that the world is so stupid to believe that," he said.
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/c ... 3468_x.htm0 -
Mad_Malx wrote:whiteboytrash wrote:Mad_Malx wrote:Airways are pretty much fully dilated unless you are asthmatic, so beta agonists do nothing to normal airway resistance.
I don't think clenbuterol is licenced for use in Europe or North America.
Have you seen the UCI report on the abuse of asthma medications in cycling?In many countries such as the USA, Australia and most of Europe, Clenbuterol is only legal for use in horses, in the treatment of asthma. However, in the UK and Canada possession and purchase for private use is not illegal, although it is an offense in the UK to supply or have intent to supply clenbuterol. It is important to bear in mind that if someone was found to be in possession of a large quantity of clenbuterol they may be deemed to be intending to supply – and may be prosecuted.
In addition to the legal clenbuterol preparations for medicinal use, there is a black-market in clenbuterol. There is a risk of buying counterfeit clenbuterol, which may have little, if any, active ingredients and, even worse, may be contaminated. Often, clenbuterol is illegally imported from other countries such as Mexico and Canada into the U.S.
I don't understand the first sentence - are we talking about asthma in horses? It definitely isn't licenced for humans in the UK, or I think EU or USA.
Because the horse version is much more effective! They do prescribe it to humans in low doses mixed with other substances.0 -
I think anyone with any sense realises all the riders with asmtha are pulling a fast onewhiteboytrash wrote:Mad_Malx wrote:Even if bronchodilation were useful, then all a rider needs is a TUE for a legal bronchodilator, which a disproportionate fraction of the peloton have. Much safer than using a banned drug for the same purpose.
Pharmacology of clenbuterol and legal beta agonists are VERY similar, any differences are likely due to duration of action. So any effects on cardiovascular system or fat burn could be achieved by high/frequent dose legal therapeutic.
Even coughed on a ride and spat out a big green and brown mulch of salvia?
Try breathing through that on a 21km climb at 12% 8)The issue of medical waivers has so far flown under the radar even though the percentage of asthmatics in cycling is peculiar, Franke said, because the condition affects only about 8 percent to 10 percent of the general population.
At times, UCI officials "have graded up to 80 percent of riders as asthmatics. The only surprising thing is that the world is so stupid to believe that," he said.
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/c ... 3468_x.htm0 -
^Dan Martin, amongst pros, suffers from asthma. I think you can expect a good few posters to challenge that post
>5m asthma suffers amongst just the UK population, according to Asthma UK
http://www.asthma.org.uk/about
You trying to say that there's not 1 elite cyclist amongst that lot?0 -
Brad Wiggins has asthma. I'm sure he has a TUE. As is 25% of British Athletics.
Not the 80% in cycling. So yes. Some fast ones being pulled.
Rogers may have went one step too far with the horse variety.Wiggins is one of a number of Team GB members who suffer from asthma. Swimmer Rebecca Adlington and 25% of the athletics team suffer from the condition, according to the charity.
http://www.londonbridgehospital.com/LBH ... sufferers/0 -
no one's saying there aren't any genuine asthma suffers in cycling but that having 80% of them listed as having asthma and the associated TUE to take sambutenol (sic) which has a performance benefit is odd to say the least0
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sherer wrote:no one's saying there aren't any genuine asthma suffers in cycling but that having 80% of them listed as having asthma and the associated TUE to take sambutenol (sic) which has a performance benefit is odd to say the least
100% agree with you. Its abused and done so legally in cycling.
Clen is high-octane version of salbutamol. Its not doesn't naturally occur in the body and it assists oxygen transport greatly.
Its not an accidental drug.0 -
sherer wrote:no one's saying there aren't any genuine asthma suffers in cycling but that having 80% of them listed as having asthma and the associated TUE to take sambutenol (sic) which has a performance benefit is odd to say the least
You said 'I think anyone with any sense realises all the riders with asmtha are pulling a fast one'
Glad you've changed that position.0 -
Yes, Twitter and Wikipedia.0
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RichN95 wrote:Is there any actual source for this 80% of cyclists having asthma?
As always I provided a link on my post.0 -
Which is from 2007 and says 'At times...' which suggests that even then it was old information.whiteboytrash wrote:RichN95 wrote:Is there any actual source for this 80% of cyclists having asthma?
As always I provided a link on my post.Twitter: @RichN950 -
I'm sure I read it was 40% somewhere. Either way it is statistically significant. Maybe asthmatics make good cyclists, or cycling lots makes you asthmatic, or maybe there is another more cynical explanation.
Would be nice if TUEs were published, but then I imagine they would become part of the cynic's armoury.
Are we allowed to veer off topic? I fear for the thread.0 -
TheBigBean wrote:I'm sure I read it was 40% somewhere. Either way it is statistically significant. Maybe asthmatics make good cyclists, or cycling lots makes you asthmatic, or maybe there is another more cynical explanation.
Would be nice if TUEs were published, but then I imagine they would become part of the cynic's armoury.
Are we allowed to veer off topic? I fear for the thread.
Fair point. Maybe people who want to discuss it further, take it over to the Big Doping Thread?0 -
RichN95 wrote:
Which is from 2007 and says 'At times...' which suggests that even then it was old information.whiteboytrash wrote:RichN95 wrote:Is there any actual source for this 80% of cyclists having asthma?
As always I provided a link on my post.
Thanks.
Failing that an alternate hasn't been provided I believe the statistics provided by German anti-doping specialist Franke stand.
Dr. Werner Franke is the man who took on Ullrich and won. His reputation speaks for itself.
If you find anything more recent do let the forum know. I'd like to see more up to date figures as well. It might even be higher now?0 -
TheBigBean wrote:I'm sure I read it was 40% somewhere. Either way it is statistically significant. Maybe asthmatics make good cyclists, or cycling lots makes you asthmatic, or maybe there is another more cynical explanation.
Would be nice if TUEs were published, but then I imagine they would become part of the cynic's armoury.
Are we allowed to veer off topic? I fear for the thread.
Well cycling induces asthma. So you'd expect it to be higher than the general population. But not significantly.0 -
whiteboytrash wrote:Well cycling induces asthma.
Is this from Dr Franke too?whiteboytrash wrote:So you'd expect it to be higher than the general population. But not significantly.
If it's not (statistically) significant then it's not higher.0 -
Categorically there is no product licensed for human use (at least in US or EU) with the active ingredient Clenbuterol - if anyone can provide a link to a licence in another location I'd sure be interested to see it.
I fear Wikipedia may be providing some misinformation here.0 -
Mad_Malx wrote:whiteboytrash wrote:Well cycling induces asthma.
Is this from Dr Franke too?whiteboytrash wrote:So you'd expect it to be higher than the general population. But not significantly.
If it's not (statistically) significant then it's not higher.
It's from Brad Wiggins and the British Asthma foundation.
What is meant that exercise induces asthma. So mealy playing sport as distinct from another who doesn't, both might have the potential for asthma but the one who plays sport will require medication.
But I agree with you. Cycling usage of TUEs for asthma is abnormally high.0 -
nic_77 wrote:Categorically there is no product licensed for human use (at least in US or EU) with the active ingredient Clenbuterol - if anyone can provide a link to a licence in another location I'd sure be interested to see it.
I fear Wikipedia may be providing some misinformation here.
I don't think anyone disagrees with you.
Hence why Clen is a banned drug from WADA.
It's used on horses (with asthma) but humans use it because here no import ban on the drug. Easier to obtain etc.0 -
sherer wrote:no one's saying there aren't any genuine asthma suffers in cycling but that having 80% of them listed as having asthma and the associated TUE to take sambutenol (sic) which has a performance benefit is odd to say the least
well not necessarily they might actually develop an exercise induced asthma condition because they are pro level cyclists.
because if you are constantly doing endurance training out in the cold or very dry air, and pushing yourself hard enough that you need to start breathing through your mouth not your nose (which generally warms humidifies the air you breath in) you dehydrate your airways, which leads to inflammation, and causes them to constrict, meaning you struggle to breath and basically have an asthma attack,which us "genuine" asthmatics also have to watch out for in weather like we have at the moment, but over time that type of damage persists.
and its also not uncommon for pro level cyclists to carry on training, or even race whilst carrying colds/chest infections which generally make asthma symptoms alot worse.
so it might be rarer to start off asthmatic and become a pro level cyclist, Laura Trott is the only one I know of for sure, but it becomes less rarer at the pro level that there are more asthmatics.
I dont know how do you tell a cyclist is a genuine asthmatic just by looking at them, youd only spot I was one from my inhaler sticking out in my jersey pocket.0 -
whiteboytrash wrote:nic_77 wrote:Categorically there is no product licensed for human use (at least in US or EU) with the active ingredient Clenbuterol - if anyone can provide a link to a licence in another location I'd sure be interested to see it.
I fear Wikipedia may be providing some misinformation here.
I don't think anyone disagrees with you.
Hence why Clen is a banned drug from WADA.
It's used on horses (with asthma) but humans use it because here no import ban on the drug. Easier to obtain etc.
This I did not know.
Albuterol is legal under TUE but the dosage is regulated.Albuterol is oftentimes associated with Clenbuterol (Clen) and is a chemical compound used by many athletes for years to lose fat and weight loss. A lot of people think that Albuterol Sulfate is a shorter acting version of Clen but this is not correct because Albuterol Sulfate has different kind of benefits that Clenbuterol doesn`t.
Albuterol is used more than Clenbuterol. Albuterol is measured in mg rather than mcg.
Numerous people have had success using Albuterol for loosing fat. Clenbuterol is for sure far more popular than Albuterol Sulfate. You will probably get more bang for your buck with Clen and it is also very easy to obtain which is kind of ironic, since Albuterol is approved by Food and Drug Administration and frequently prescribed in the US and Clenbuterol is not FDA approved and is considered a illegal steroid.
Side Effects of Albuterol Sulfate
Since it’s authorized by the FDA for use in asthmatics, studies on Albuterol used by humans are numerous. In some reports Albuterol Sulfate proved that it increase the strength and endurance in humans. On the other hand, Clen is reducing the strength and endurance in athletes who use it.
The primary difference between Albuterol and Clen is that Albuterol has a shorter half life than Clenbuetrol. Albuterol is a good choice for bodybuilders and athletes, because it’s not going to build up in your body like Clen. 2 to 4 mgs, three to four times a day is normally enough for an anabolic as well as fat burning effect.0 -
In case anyone is unaware Salbutamol and Albuterol are the same thing.
Salbutamol is the international name, Albuterol is the American name.0 -
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Rick Chasey wrote:Why are we talking about asthma??
It's because the Szechuan Horse & Ginger that Mick ate in China had asthma, and before it had been turned into a stir fry it had been rubbing clenbuterol on it's saddle sores.0
